It has started....

[Rattler]

Koen,

They are closer than you think!  Keep a low profile.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/01/022547.php

Always, if contributing in a heated debate by qutoing, check your authors (or the organs/organs owners where they publish):

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0306/west032006.php3

http://townhall.com/columnists/DianaWest/2008/12/12/where_were_you_born,_obama

http://mediamatters.org/items/200806240006

http://www.unitedfeatures.com/?title=Bio:Diana%20West

I think you will get the idea, another interest group mingling with facts.

Rattler

[Tanker]

Here is a little "mind experiment" for ya'll:   

Scenario #1:  Suddenly the Palastinians throw their arms into the sea, and declare a unilateral end to the fighting, and agree to recognize Israel's right to exist.  What happens next?

Scenaio #2:  Suddenly the Israelis throw their arms into the sea, open the borders, declare a unilateral end to the fighting and agree to give the Palastinians Gaza and the West Bank for their own state.  What happens next?

Post what you think will happen in each case.

Interesting take.

Based on my firm belief that this is all about the money, (we are talking the serious stuff here: Hundreds of millions Euros/$ and related commisions), I would guess something like the following to happen:

Re Sc1: The Palestinian Leader deciding that will get killed. A big terrorist actioin that kills a few hundred Israelis will take place on Israeli soil and will be auto-attributed by a formerly unknown fighter formation (of cause, this would have been staged by Iran, Syria and Israel services together). Israel will be pressed by its citizens to retaliate in force, and the thingy goes on.

Re SC2: The Isarel Leader deciding that will get killed. A series of terrorist actions that kill a few hundred Palestinians will take place and will be traced back to some radical settler group formerly unknown (of cause, this would have been staged by Iran, Syria and Israel services together). Some Palestinians will retaliate in force, and the thingy goes on.

Rattler

Money?  What are you on about? 

BTW Ehud Barak, while Prime Minister, offered Arafat Scenario #2 minus throwing the arms into the sea.  Arafat, as ever never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

[Koen]

Koen,

They are closer than you think!  Keep a low profile.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/01/022547.php

Brussels has always been an easy target for locating agents or militants....some 130 nationalities are present...no one looks at you if you wear foreign clothes or such....


few weeks ago they finally arrested a woman who was very active recruiting militants for Al-Qaeda..with even her own website and such....

***************

sentimental mode on:
just saw new footages in a Gaza clinic on the children department...whatever side...this is very very bad...sorry guys....I feel bad when I see this...
sci-fi movies as 'The day the earth stood still' are very to the point...human kind doesn't deserve earth...
what if all this money, manhours and effort were put into positive things?
sentimental mode off

[Rattler]

I guess my perspective is a bit twisted (as many of my ideas seem to be), If I recall correctly, both sides can trace their ancestry to Abraham.

Twisted perspectives are a good base to start from,

This said, Abraham was the guy that was willing to sacrifice his own son for an assumed wish of god, and would have done so had god not stopped him in his tracks just in time... What does this tell us (combined with "his own people" and "the elected few")?

Actually, I think starig discussions on that base won´t lead anywhere a we really dont see a conflict of religions, but of autocrats.

That would make the whole 2k+ year conflict, a civil war between cousins. (How retarded is that?) One of the things we used to say in 'Nam was;  "Why are we getting involved in their 'Civil War' (between North & South Vietnam)? "

sic, see above.

A pox on both their houses for their ignorance. The leaders on both sides care more for their ideals, than their children's futures. I fear the concept of 'Forever War'  (though I hope I am wrong) holds sway over the region. I suspect, should the state of Isreal cease to exist, the Shia & Sunni would then return to their own 'Civil War', changing nothing in the region but the actors.

Indeed.

It seems to me, that we who would wage war, too oft(en?, Rattler) forget, the most to suffer are the least able to cope with it...our children.  I remember my own experience of the Terror' of war, but I knowingly volunteered for that, which I even 40 years later still suffer from. That however, is my Karma.  Children who ask for nothing but love, affection and security, instead, are cursed with the wrenching memories of 'Terror',  without the reasoning ability to begin to understand what is happening to their world.

Curse us all...

Not everybody is forgetting this, and certainly not the true soldier-hearted soldiers or their commanders on Israels side, to my sincere soul pain I have not been able to find anything voiced from the palestinian side along the same line, though (shministim = conscious objectors, refuseniks, and others):

http://www.fmep.org/analysis/analysis/pilots-letter
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124867
http://www.couragetorefuse.org/english/combatants_letter.asp
http://links.org.au/node/851
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1048054.html
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090106_israeli_voices_for_peace/?ln

Disclaimer:
Please understand, that while I expound upon the subjects of this thread, my feelings apply to all of humankind that retard our evolutionary progress. I take the side of only the children in this post and none  of the beligerents (including my own country). My use of the word 'Terror', is in the sense of feelings, not tactics.

AYS,

J

Understood and subscribed, and more so than you might think (there is a person on this forum who will know what I am refering to, and it is another proof for my side in our long standing discussion, sorry for the cheap shot, friend!).

Rattler

[Rattler]

-snip-
Money?  What are you on about? 
-snip-

As already stated on the first day (and as I had assumed you had read everything in this thread sorry for not repeating myself): http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/index.php?topic=531.msg1158#msg1158, and as quoted there: http://www.airdisaster.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1877#p24321 :

It is all about cynical money making on both sides.

My take,

Rattler

[Mad Russian]

-snip-
Money?  What are you on about? 
-snip-

As already stated on the first day (and as I had assumed you had read everything in this thread sorry for not repeating myself): http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/index.php?topic=531.msg1158#msg1158, and as quoted there: http://www.airdisaster.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1877#p24321 :

It is all about cynical money making on both sides.

My take,

Rattler

Money and power. The desire to be the ones that tell others what to do.

Unfortunately that's what makes politicians and governments work.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Tanker]

-snip-
Money?  What are you on about? 
-snip-

As already stated on the first day (and as I had assumed you had read everything in this thread sorry for not repeating myself): http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/index.php?topic=531.msg1158#msg1158, and as quoted there: http://www.airdisaster.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1877#p24321 :

It is all about cynical money making on both sides.

My take,

Rattler

I have read it from the beginning but I'm not about to chase after every extraneous web link posted here. 

How are the Isrealis making money out of fighting Hamas in Gaza?  For that matter how is Hamas making money by fighting Isreal?

You really have not explained that, or I've missed it completely.

Are you talking about getting contributions from their respective supporters?

[von Staudt]

Koen,

They are closer than you think!  Keep a low profile.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/01/022547.php

Always, if contributing in a heated debate by qutoing, check your authors (or the organs/organs owners where they publish):

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0306/west032006.php3

http://townhall.com/columnists/DianaWest/2008/12/12/where_were_you_born,_obama

http://mediamatters.org/items/200806240006

http://www.unitedfeatures.com/?title=Bio:Diana%20West

I think you will get the idea, another interest group mingling with facts.

Rattler

I posted this because in an earlier post to Koen I was not sure if Belgum had had any unrest similar to France, Germany, or the Neatherlands.  I found this article that seems to confirm that, yes, Belgum is in trouble too.

I see the usual "kill the messenger" stuff in your reply, but what has any of this got to do with the facts of the story?  Can you refute them or not?  I didn't think so.   

[Rattler]

I have read it from the beginning but I'm not about to chase after every extraneous web link posted here. 

How are the Isrealis making money out of fighting Hamas in Gaza?  For that matter how is Hamas making money by fighting Isreal?

You really have not explained that, or I've missed it completely.

Are you talking about getting contributions from their respective supporters?

Nope.

Hamas: EU has sent in some 500 million Euros to Gaza since Israel left, since the new war they have already raised another 150 millions (as Spanish tax payer I contribute to our 29 millions guaranteed today). What is the average comission of the people that distribute the money? I think 15% is a safe guess (if I compare it to Iraq or Afghanistan or Africa), that is 65 millions Euros distributed between the leaders. Better than smuggling drugs.

Israel: How much ordenance/planes/vehicles have been sold to Israel over the last 5 yrs? How much ordenance has to be replaced by the US for the ongoing war? My guess (numbers of 2007: 2.5 bn$ Turkey, 25 bn$ US, 12 bn$ China, go google "arms deal volume israel") is a good 30.000 Million $, If Israelis are only as corrupt as we here in Spain (and nothing suggests that, they look way worse), that is 3% comisions on the way = 300 Million $ in comissions distributed between Israeli leaders. *MUCH* better than smuggling drugs.

Egypt: Lives from the black market in Gaza that is following the blockade, example: ! kg sugar in Egypt is 2 Euros, in Gaza is 80 Euros, again, drug smuggling is nothing against it.

etc, etc.

You think with such sums involved anyone would want to stop? Well, get real, then, those ppl do business and dont count corpses.

Just for the record and t put it into perspective: 60.000 ppl daily on this planet die for plain hunger. 200 Million families live under 1$ a day on this planet. Arms deals on this planet raise 3.000 Million $ daily (!).

Rattler

[Rattler]

I have read it from the beginning but I'm not about to chase after every extraneous web link posted here.  -snip-

As this link was the substantial part of the post (and linked to a statement *I* made): Meaning: I dont give a s... what you/others write, nor want to read it. The "extraneous" is your interpretation, it led to the following statement (pls explain the "extraneous" in this context if you care?):

...-snip-
Now, as I don´t believe the Israeli government is stupid and not aware of that, why are they doing it? Same goes for Hamas: Why do they keep launching Kassams at Israel when they know the response? The answer is simple: "Cui bono".

All those guys are plain cynical calculators: Israel needs its Palestinian terrorists, the Palestinians need their Israel state terrorism, Egypt needs both, simply to make sure this does not finish ever and they can keep making serious money from the situation.

All those governments and leader structures over there are super corrupt (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6276071.stm,   http://www.phrmg.org/Corruption%20in%20the%20Palestinian%20Authority.htm,   http://www.business-anti-corruption.com/normal.asp?pageid=143) and their citizens lives and wellbeing don´t count zilch for them as long as they can make their cuts on arms deals, take their part of International Help funds, control goods flow to Gaza and keep up a well working black market with hilarious prizes for everything, etc. etc.

FWIW,
Rattler

Rattler

[Rattler]

I posted this because in an earlier post to Koen I was not sure if Belgum had had any unrest similar to France, Germany, or the Neatherlands.  I found this article that seems to confirm that, yes, Belgum is in trouble too.

I see the usual "kill the messenger" stuff in your reply, but what has any of this got to do with the facts of the story?  Can you refute them or not?  I didn't think so.   

Nope, the facts are facts, after all, and the lady sure does her research well.

It is the interpretation of the facts that I wanted to shed a light on.

Rattler

[Tanker]

You don't give an s... what others write?  Very classy.  Well, that just leads to others not giving an mier.. for what you write.

Conspiracy theories are easy to subscribe to.  Are there corrupt Isreali arms merchants and officials?  I assume there are.  But arms trading and commissions won't keep the war going.  You are naive if you really think that.

On the other hand, the only raison d'etre of Hamas is confrontation with Isreal.  If that goes away, their reason for being goes away.  Who has the greater motivation to keep conflict going?

As much as you try to obfuscate it, at the most fundamental level this conflict is about radical Islam wishing to destroy Isreal.  You never seem to want to address this issue.

You made a very convenient answer to von Staudt's mind experiment earlier.  I think it is obvious that if Hamas and Hezbollah (and Iran stayed away) disappeared tomorrow, that the more moderate Palestinians and Isreal would make peace and a 2 state solution would probably be in place within a few years.

[Rattler]

I have read it from the beginning but I'm not about to chase after every extraneous web link posted here.  -snip-

Meaning: I dont give a s... what you/others write, nor want to read it.

You don't give an s... what others write?  Very classy.  Well, that just leads to others not giving an mier.. for what you write.

LOL, I was citing (and explaining) what *you* meant saying with that, nice try to turn that round...

Rattler

[Rattler]

Conspiracy theories are easy to subscribe to.  Are there corrupt Isreali arms merchants and officials?  I assume there are.  But arms trading and commissions won't keep the war going.  You are naive if you really think that.

I am talking from a serious background If I think terrorists are that cynical: After the negotiation with the ETA Terrorists and the Spanish Government had failed and the ceasefire was broken, it later came out that our Government had offered to all terroriss that would let the armgs go 1500,-- Euros monthly for a period of 5 years and tax free (that is 2.5x the minimal salary in Spain). Answer: "Oh, no, thank you sir, but with the fright our bombs sow we earn significantly more through revolutionary tax...". Of cause the official ETA theme is the liberation of their sacred territory from Spanish/French occupation...

As much as you try to obfuscate it, at the most fundamental level this conflict is about radical Islam wishing to destroy Isreal.  You never seem to want to address this issue.

I dont try to obfuscate or avoid addressing anything, I simply dont think this is a correct interpretation, I see this concept as just lip service (see above) to motivate the uninformed followers/partisans on both sides.

Rattler

[stoffel]

Well, there are no REAL troubles here in the Netherlands.
All you see is (mostly) left wing supported groups of Moroccans screaming and jelling anti Jewish slogans.
They also get away with it
Once they try to do things against the law I am sure  they will be dealt with.
A lot of people are allready fed up with these guys, terrorizing entire neighbourhoods.
What you dont see in the media are the people who are against these terrorists.
Dozens of gatherings where more people show up to support Israel and its citizens.
Its just not political "right" to stand up against those  "poor" terrorists.

People tend to forget that the average Moslim terrorist only wants to kill us all.
Its either pro or against, being islamic or dead.
As a civilian in a western country you are a legitimate target in their eyes.
Its time more people  understand its that black and white for the average terrorist.
There is no reason to believe they will not hurt you if you voted against a sitting government, they kill indiscriminately, look to what happened in India......
Whats even worse is that these people can hide /make use of our laws while they are living above these same laws, and dont respect them.

Just my 2 cents.

[Tanker]

Conspiracy theories are easy to subscribe to.  Are there corrupt Isreali arms merchants and officials?  I assume there are.  But arms trading and commissions won't keep the war going.  You are naive if you really think that.

I am talking from a serious background If I think terrorists are that cynical: After the negotiation with the ETA Terrorists and the Spanish Government had failed and the ceasefire was broken, it later came out that our Government had offered to all terroriss that would let the armgs go 1500,-- Euros monthly for a period of 5 years and tax free (that is 2.5x the minimal salary in Spain). Answer: "Oh, no, thank you sir, but with the fright our bombs sow we earn significantly more through revolutionary tax...". Of cause the official ETA theme is the liberation of their sacred territory from Spanish/French occupation...

As much as you try to obfuscate it, at the most fundamental level this conflict is about radical Islam wishing to destroy Isreal.  You never seem to want to address this issue.

I dont try to obfuscate or avoid addressing anything, I simply dont think this is a correct interpretation, I see this concept as just lip service (see above) to motivate the uninformed followers/partisans on both sides.

Rattler

But you ascribe the same motivation to each side in the conflict we are speaking of.  Too easy, too simplistic.

[Rattler]

But you ascribe the same motivation to each side in the conflict we are speaking of.  Too easy, too simplistic.

As another distinguished member or this circle already said (interpretation by yours truly), motives for anything are the same through cultures and ideologies: Greed and Power (Edit: On 2nd thought, sex also counts even if not falling under the 2nd category). Simplistic? Possibly. But, from my POV, true.

Nuff said,

Rattler

[von Staudt]

Well, there are no REAL troubles here in the Netherlands.
All you see is (mostly) left wing supported groups of Moroccans screaming and jelling anti Jewish slogans.
They also get away with it
Once they try to do things against the law I am sure  they will be dealt with.
A lot of people are allready fed up with these guys, terrorizing entire neighbourhoods.
What you dont see in the media are the people who are against these terrorists.
Dozens of gatherings where more people show up to support Israel and its citizens.
Its just not political "right" to stand up against those  "poor" terrorists.

(snip)

It is good to know that the good guys are pushing back.  The people of the Neatherlands are known for their tolerance (except when you walk in a bike lane in Amsterdam!   )  The "Disadvantaged Angry Youths" are giving you (and the rest of the EU) a bad name and effecting turisim because the media is so biased and don't tell the whole story.

Hang in there!

[Tanker]

I wonder what would happen if a cartoon of Mohammed was published, or a movie critical of Islam was made.

[Rattler]

I wonder what would happen if a cartoon of Mohammed was published, or a movie critical of Islam was made.

Cheap shot (! NOTE the subtlety), but really expanding our view on things and why they are as they are.

Rattler