Info requested on JagdTigers!

Koen

Poster

Offline

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4215

Info requested on JagdTigers!

« on: 13 January 2009, 22:22:58 »

Reply

Guys,

I'm collecting technical info on JagdTigers...THE MONSTERS!

what I have:

2 prototypes: 1 Henschel and 1 Porsche

Henschel’s gear: 74 produced: serial numbers 305002 and 305013 to 305088
Porsche’s gear: 11 produced from February to September of 1944: serial numbers 305001 and 305003 to 305012

In April of 1945, four were armed with 88mm Pak 43 L/71 gun and designated as Panzerjäger Tiger mit 88mm Pak 43/3 (Sf)Sd.Kfz.185

128mm Pak 44 L/55 were designated Sd.Kfz.186

July of 1944 to April of 1945, only 85 Jagdtigers were manufactured (out of 150 ordered) with known chassisnumbers 305001 to 305077 or to 305088.

Jagdtigers were produced by Nibelungenwerke at St. Valentin and were tested at Dollersheim in Austria.

Henschel’s gear 9 roadwheels (800mm in diameter) were slightly larger than those used in Porsche’s gear with 8 roadwheels (700mm in diameter).

Two s.Pz.Jäg.Abt. (schwere Panzerjäger Abteilung) were issued the Jagdtiger: s.Pz.Jäg.Abt. 653 and s.Pz.Jäg.Abt. 512. With the collapse of the Wehrmacht, the Jagdtigers produced few results.

Questions:

were both Henschel and Porsche types used in battle?
were they mixed in battle?
were both types produced in the same factory?
were the numbers of 11 & 74 ALL production tanks?
were the 185 types Porsche or Henschel?

thx


« Last Edit: 13 January 2009, 22:30:32 by Koen »	Logged

stoffel

WaT supporter
WaT Supporter

Offline

Location: Eemnes The Netherlands
Posts: 1906

Re: Info requested on JagdTigers!

« Reply #1 on: 14 January 2009, 15:53:34 »

Reply

I have the big Tigerbook from walter spielberger,I shall see if I can find some answers.
Will post them soon.

The parts were manufactured by three different factories and all put togeteher at Henschels Nibelungenwerken.
The gun(12.8 cm PAK44 L55 was manufactured by Krupp Bertha-Werk in Breslau.
Indeed some vehicles recieved the Jasgdpanthers gun because the foreseen gun wasnt ready on time, its the same as the jagdpanther but named PAK 43/3AusfD Spielberger doesnt give any numbers though.
Steyr Daimler Puch made the hulls, 133 were allready finished at the end of the war.
Henschell manufactured the undercarriadge with the roadwheels.
70 vehicles at the end of the war, 4 off them fitted with Porsches roadwheels were manufactured.
According to Spielberger only the wheels of those 4 vehicles were made by Porsche not the vehicle itself so yes.
These were prototypes 305001,002,003 and 004.
I have a nice drawing of both wheels systems, I can scan it and send it to you if you want.
I cant find any info about fighting records.

Henschels version was designated185 and Porsches version 186.


« Last Edit: 14 January 2009, 17:16:35 by stoffel »	Logged

My topics are about my personal opinion, my thoughts and what I think. They do not reflect the official opinion of the ministry of defense of the Netherlands.

Koen

Poster

Offline

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4215

Re: Info requested on JagdTigers!

« Reply #2 on: 14 January 2009, 20:26:44 »

Reply

ok, so there are different versions...

Porsche: 4 or 11?

Quote

According to Spielberger only the wheels of those 4 vehicles were made by Porsche not the vehicle itself so yes.
These were prototypes 305001,002,003 and 004.

001: Porsche
002: Henschel? ? ? ? ? ? ?
003: Porsche
004: Porsche

so is 002 equipped with Porsches or Henschels gear?

what I think is confusing is the number 4 that seems to return continuosly...
4 prototypes / 4 porsches / 4 88mm Pak 43 L/71 barrels ....

Quote

I have a nice drawing of both wheels systems, I can scan it and send it to you if you want.

ok, as you know I'm preparing a topic on the MONSTERS Brede lach

It would be great, with the limited numbers made, to make a storybook on the MONSTERS


	Logged

stoffel

WaT supporter
WaT Supporter

Offline

Location: Eemnes The Netherlands
Posts: 1906

Re: Info requested on JagdTigers!

« Reply #3 on: 14 January 2009, 21:28:44 »

Reply

002 has Porsche gear, Spileberger only lists the first batch of 4 prototyes having this gear.
He says that 11 of them had the jagdpanthers gun, originally 25 vehicles would have received this gun.
But the 12,8 cm was available sooner than expected.


	Logged

My topics are about my personal opinion, my thoughts and what I think. They do not reflect the official opinion of the ministry of defense of the Netherlands.

Vati

Private 1st class

Offline

Posts: 19

Re: Info requested on JagdTigers!

« Reply #4 on: 15 January 2009, 01:21:45 »

Reply

Intriging question.

I can't find a reliable source...

"The 512th schwere Panzerjaeger Abteilung (sPz.Jg.Abt.) was formed in late January 1945 at Sennelager, north of Paderborn. It was one of only two Abteilungen (the other being the 653rd) to be equipped with Jagdtigers.

On March 7th, 1945, the US Army took the bridge at Remagen intact. Also it collapsed 10 days later, the US forces now had a bridgehead on the east bank of the Rhine. On March 14th, 2nd Company of the 512th started traveling south (via rail), eventually reaching the Lauschied woods southeast of Eitorf on March 20th, 1945 (movement was very slow and only during the darkness). Three Jagdtigers were produced in March 1945 by Nibelungen Werk and had the following chassis numbers: 305075, 305076 and 305077. These three were delivered to schwere Panzer-Abteilung 512 with 1 being transported on 14 March and 2 transported on 26 March.

On March 24th, elements of the 512th Abteilung, together with the 506th schwere Panzerabteilung and 654th schwere Jagdpanzerabteilung formed Panzergruppe Hudel and attacked between Eitorf and Siegburg towards the southwest, with the intention to destroy the US bridgehead.

11 Jagdtigers (P) were delivered during August to October, 1944. Most of them (305006-305012) were issued to sPz.Jg.Abt.653 while the rest to test and training units. In addition, 6 Jagdtigers (H) (305013-305018) were delivered to the Abt.653 in October 1944. None of these Jagdtigers were lost before 1945.

Some Jagdtigers from the 653rd Hvy Pz.Jgt.Bn fought against the French 5e Division Blindee at a place called Klingenberg in Germany on 5.April 1945. There was very heavy fighting in the town of Klingenberg with the 5th French Tank Division. One Jagdtiger was destroyed on 5 April 1945 and on the same day in the afternoon a second Jagdtiger was blown up due to mechanical problems."

I can't confirm this.

Should we believe this report there were Jagdtigers delivered in March 1945.

I'm in the impression that the first vehicle's had the Porsch suspension, up to number 305012.
It seems these vehicle where delivered with Zimmerit anti-magnetic mine paste with the exception of 205012.
As noted most were delivered to SPzJg.Abt.653, the rest of these vehicles where used in proving grounds of which the vehicle of the Bovington Tank Museum is a fine example.

As to the 88mm version there is a rapport that this gun was fitted because the 128 Pak 44 could not be delivered in time.
Then it seems they didn't have the correct gun-sights so this conversion was abandoned.

As for SdKfz 185, wasn't there a tiger "berg-panzer" designated with the same number?

As for production numbers;

February 1944 - 2 - #305001-305002
July 1944 - 3 - #305003-305005
August 1944 - 3 - #305006-305008
September 1944 - 8 - #305009-305016
October 1944 - 9 - #305017-305025
November 1944 - 6 - #305026-305031
December 1944 - 20 - #305032-305051
January 1945 - 10 - #305052-305061
February 1945 - 13 - #305062-305074
March 1945 - 3 - #305075-305077
April 1945 - 7 - #305078-305084
May1945 - 4 - #305085-305088

again; no conformation about actual combat readines.

I also found a rapport that after februari no Jagdtigers were delivered.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The end of the sPzJg.Abt 512 to US 99th infantry division.

"The division now set its sights northwest on Iserlohn, largest Ruhr city in the 99th's path. When 7th Armd. right-hooked the middle of Field Marshal Model's Army Group B, the Battle Babies moved on as fast as they could march.

By April 13, PW counts doubled; the Nazi cave-in was under way. More than 1200 PWs were taken that day followed by a 2315 count on Saturday, 9043 more Sunday and a staggering total of 23,884 on Monday. Overwhelming loads of Krauts, many driving their own vehicles, including horse drawn carts, converged on the PW field at Sundwig, outside Iserlohn.

In four days, the division had corraled and processed 36,453 Germans. Monday's catch included three lieutenant generals, eight major generals and a land-locked rear admiral. The famed 130th Panzer Lehr Div., credited with the finest soldiers, equipment and highest morale of any unit in the pocket, surrendered intact to the 393rd. The roundup also included the 22nd AA Div. Luftwaffe), the 338th Volksgrenadier Div. and the 3rd Panzer Grenadier Div., an old enemy from the breakthrough days.

Iserlohn gave up at noon, April 16, when a battery of 128mm "Jagdtiger" self-propelled guns surrendered to Lt. Col. Robert L. Kriz, 2nd Bn. CO, 394th. Unlike other last-ditch artillery units, the "Jagdtigers" still had plenty of ammunition left."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know, it's not really an answer to your question.

Just my two cents.....


« Last Edit: 15 January 2009, 19:31:40 by Koen »	Logged

Mad Russian

Guest

Re: Info requested on JagdTigers!

« Reply #5 on: 15 January 2009, 01:54:49 »

Reply

Quote from: Vati on 15 January 2009, 01:21:45

If you don't mind Vati would you list your sources so others can go and see what you are looking at or not bother to look there since that source has been checked in the past.

This site is all about discussions, but we only want to research the material one time. Quoting your sources is the fastest way to make that happen.

Thanks.

Good Hunting.

MR


« Last Edit: 15 January 2009, 19:30:26 by Koen »	Logged

Vati

Private 1st class

Offline

Posts: 19

Re: Info requested on JagdTigers!

« Reply #6 on: 15 January 2009, 21:21:04 »

Reply

As noted ; "I can't find a reliable source".

It doesn't make sence to qoute sources you think you can't rely up, does it?

I remember, though, there was a good article in one issue of the Waffen Revue which i, unlucky enough, deedn't keep for al those years.

Most information is in pranks, which means you need more information to come up with a conformation.

Once I find a reliable source and conformation of this information I have no trouble in qouting this source.

As you might have noticed, this little piece of proza is full of contradictions.

Just maybe you can confirm or reject any of this information?

As for me, I never take the information presented by a single source for granted.

An indepth study takes time and can't be answered in a weekend.

The end of sPzJg.Abt 653; http://www.thirdreichruins.com/spjabt653.htm


	Logged

Vati

Private 1st class

Offline

Posts: 19

Re: Info requested on JagdTigers!

« Reply #7 on: 15 January 2009, 22:23:50 »

Reply

This information seems reasonable reliable to me……..

für die Tiger-Familie verwendete Kettentypen

Bezeichnung der
Kette im Original Symmetrie Teiligkeit Verwendung der Kette
1 / Kgs 62/640/130 ja ein Allzweck
2 / Kgs 62/640/130 ja zwei Allzweck
3 / Kgs 64/640/130 ja zwei Allzweck
4 / Kgs 63/520/130 ja ein Transport
5 / Kgs 63/725/130 nein ein Gelände
6 / Kgs 63/725/130 nein ein Gelände
7 / Gg 24/660/300 ja zwei Transport
8 / Gg 24/660/300 ja zwei Transport
9 / Gg 24/800/300 nein zwei Gelände
10 / Gg 24/800/300 nein zwei Gelände
11 Kgs 73/800/300 nein zwei Gelände
12 Kgs 73/800/152 nein ein Gelände

Jagdtiger
Die beiden ersten Modelle des Jagdtigers (Sd.Kfz.186) wurden im Februar 1944 gefertigt und standen im April für Erprobungen zur Verfügung. Eines hatte ein von Porsche konstruiertes Laufwerk (Porsche-Laufwerk) und das andere eines von Henschel (Henschel-Laufwerk). Das letzt genannte Laufwerk war eine geringfügige Modifikation des beim Tiger II verwendeten.
Das von Porsche entworfene vereinfachte Laufwerk für den Jagdtiger ist erkennbar an den acht sichtbaren Laufradscheiben, während das von Henschel neun zeigt.
Diese Fahrzeuge wurden mit der zu dieser Zeit üblichen Geländekette Gg 24/800/300 [L3, S.149] des Tigers II ausgerüstet.
Verwendet wurde die Kette neuer Art mit profilierten Zwischengliedern [L3, S.150].
Bei den Fahrversuchen wurde festgestellt, dass Henschel-Kette und Porsche-Laufwerk nicht harmonierten. Deshalb wurden zur Beseitigung dieses Fehlers zunächst die inneren Führungszähne der Henschel-Kette entfernt. Weiter experimentiert wurde danach mit verschiedenen Kettenkränzen, ohne das Problem endgültig zu lösen. Daraufhin wurde auf eines dieser Fahrzeuge (Fahrgestell 305003) die Kette Kgs 64/640/130 des Elefant aufgezogen [L3, S.152/L13, S.10ff.].
Diese Kombination wurde aber nur im Juni 1944 für Versuchsfahrten verwendet und hat sich ebenfalls nicht bewährt.
Da die Henschel-Ketten für den Porsche-Jagdtiger verbesserte Gefechtseigenschaften (Bodendruck etc.) ergaben, wurden die Leiträder geändert, wodurch die Porsche-Fahrzeuge dann tatsächlich mit der Gg 24/800/300 fuhren. Fotos zeigen im März 1945 vernichtete Porsche-Jagdtiger mit genau
dieser Kette. Nachdem die Geländekette Kgs 73/800/300 des Tigers II in ausreichender Menge zur Verfügung stand, wurde sie ab September
1944 beim Henschel-Jagdtiger verwendet [L3, S.162], dessen Produktion in diesem Monat anlief. Daher ist es auszuschließen,
dass die Geländekette Gg 24/800/300 (außer beim o.g. Henschel-Versuchs-Jagdtiger) noch verwendet worden ist. Die erste Front-Einheit, die mit dem Henschel-Jagdtiger ausgerüstet wurde, hatte dann auch tatsächlich die Kgs 73/800/300 als Geländekette aufgezogen. [L3, S.174].
Eine Bedarfsmeldung der s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 653 vom 15. April 1945 forderte entsprechend den obigen Aussagen auch unterschiedliche Gleisketten für Jagdtiger mit Porsche- und Henschel-Laufwerk als Ersatzbeschaffung an [L3, S.181].
Es ist daher als gesichert anzusehen, dass die Geländekette Kgs 73/800/300 nicht auf dem Porsche-Jagdtiger verwendet worden ist.
Als Verladeketten erhielten die Porsche-Jagdtiger die Gg 24/660/300 älterer Art mit flachem Zwischenglied [L3, S.167] und die Henschel-Jagdtiger trugen die Verladekette neuer Art mit dem profilierten Zwischenglied [L3, S.187].

verwendete Ketten am Jagdtiger (Porsche-Laufwerk), Sd.Kfz.186:
1944 1945
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 01 02 03 04 05
3 1 / u*
7 (1) ... (2) (3) (4) ...
10 1 ... 2 3 4 ...
* Fahrzeug erhielt die Ketten Nr. 7 und 10

verwendete Ketten am Jagdtiger (Henschel-Laufwerk), Sd.Kfz.186:
1944 1945
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 01 02 03 04 05
8 (4) (9) (6)(20)(10)(13)(3) (7) (1)*
10 1 ... /
11 4 9 6 20 10 13 3 7 1*
* möglicherweise fertiggestellt, möglich auch 4 Stück
Legende:
Zahl Produktion und Ausstattung; in Klammern: dieselben Fahrzeuge mit Verladeketten
u Umrüstung
... weitere Verwendung in der Folge
/ danach keine weitere Verwendung

Literatur:
L1 Spielberger: "Der Panzer-Kampfwagen Panther und seine Abarten", ISBN 3-87943-527-8
L2 Spielberger: "Der Panzer-Kampfwagen Tiger und seine Abarten", ISBN 3-87943-456-5
L3 Spielberger/Doyle/Jentz: "Schwere Jagdpanzer", ISBN 3-613-01517-X
L4 Jentz/Doyle/Sarson: "Kingtiger", ISBN 185532282X
L5 Kleine/Kühn: "Tiger", ISBN 3-87943-414-X
L6 Barr/Hart: "Panzer", Neuer Kaiser Verlag 1999
L7 Forty: "Die deutsche Panzerwaffe im zweiten Weltkrieg", ISBN 3-8289-5327-1
L8 Ford: "Tiger-Panzer", Karl Müller Verlag 1998
L9 Koch: "Laufwerke und Ketten deutscher Kampfpanzer 1935-45", ISBN 3-7909-0629-8
L10 Scheibert: "Die Tiger-Familie", ISBN 3-7909-0666-2
L11 Culver: "Tiger in action", ISBN 0-89747-230-6
L12 Fleischer: "Tiger in der Truppe", ISBN 3-7909-0637-9
L13 Devey: "Jagdtiger", ISBN 3-7909-0722-7
L14 Schneider: "Tiger im Kampf I", ISBN 3-935107-01-3
L15 Schneider: "Tiger im Kampf II", ISBN 3-935107-02-1
L16 Scheibert (Red.): "Panzerkampfwagen Maus und andere deutsche Panzerprojekte",
Waffenarsenal Highlight Band 3, ISBN 3-7909-0098-2

Source;

Die Sohlen der Tiger
Versuch einer Katalogisierung der Gleisketten für die Tiger-Panzer

Maybe this contains some answers to your questions?


« Last Edit: 15 January 2009, 22:29:53 by Vati »	Logged

Mad_Russian

Captain

Offline

Posts: 1320

Co-founder of WaT

Re: Info requested on JagdTigers!

« Reply #8 on: 8 November 2011, 18:02:35 »

Reply

The book "Tigers in the Mud" by Otto Carius talks about the deployment Jagdtigers with the 512th schwere Panzerjaeger Abteilung (sPz.Jg.Abt.). That may give you some information you've not seen before.

Good Hunting.

MR


	Logged

Pages: [1] Go Up

« previous next »