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Author Topic: Lost Battles of the Vietnam War  (Read 44924 times)
Mad_Russian
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« on: 13 March 2012, 07:21:36 »
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There are many who claim the U.S. military never lost a battle during the entire Vietnam war. Research turns up these 50 battles of the Vietnam war that were in fact losses for US forces:

1. Attack on Camp Holloway - In 1962, the U.S. Army established an airfield near Pleiku in central South Vietnam, which grew to include logistics elements and a large advisory group. In early 1965, some 300 Viet Cong slipped past ARVN guards and swept through the camp killing 8 Americans, wounding 126, destroying 10 aircraft and damaging 15 more. The Viet Cong withdrew to avoid battling reinforcements, with few losses.

2. Battle of Dong Xoai - Soon after American combat brigades arrived in South Vietnam, the NVA attacked this large, strategic base defended by ARVN units supported by American Special Forces and airpower. The base was overrun with hundreds of casualties while two dozen Americans died in combat and helicopter crashes, with even more wounded or missing.

3. Attack on Da Nang Airbase - North Vietnamese Army (NVA) sappers infiltrated this airbase on July 1, 1965. They destroyed three large C-130 transport aircraft, three F-102 fighters, and damaged three more F-102s. The sappers escaped leaving behind one dead.

4. Iron Hand Air Strikes - American aircraft had suffered losses from North Vietnamese Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM) systems. On August 13, 1965, the Navy aircraft carriers USS Coral Sea and USS Midway launched 76 low-level "Iron Hand" missions to seek out and destroy SAM sites. Five aircraft and three pilots were lost to enemy guns, and seven other planes were damaged, but no SAMs were discovered.

5. Battle for LZ Albany - The 1st battalion of the 7th Cavalry barely survived its now famous 1965 battle in the Ia Drang valley. After saving its 1st battalion, the exhausted 2nd battalion headed for LZ Albany for an aerial extraction. It was in a long column in open terrain when it ran into a concealed NVA battalion, which attacked and shot it to pieces during a bloody battle that claimed the lives of 155 Americans, with 124 wounded.

6. Attack on Marble Mountain - Some 90 Viet Cong sappers infiltrated this huge Marine Corps airfield and destroyed 19 helicopters and damaged 35 (11 of them severely). After this 30 minute rampage, the Viet Cong withdrew, leaving behind 17 dead and 4 wounded. American casualties were 3 killed and 91 wounded.

7. Battle of Xa Cam My - A battalion from the 1st Infantry Division conducted another "search and destroy" sweep. Its three companies were deployed miles apart in hopes the NVA would attack one. They surrounded and blasted Charlie company, killing 38 and wounding 71 of its 134 soldiers before its other two companies came to the rescue.

8. Operation Paul Revere IV - Two cavalry battalions swept the Cambodian border area in search of the enemy. None were found, until Company C ran into a large force near Duc Co. Details are scarce, but two platoons were overrun and destroyed; only one soldier survived. The American dead were so numerous that they were hauled away in external cargo nets by helicopters.

9. Battle of Cu Nghi - As the 7th Cavalry began Operation Masher, a CH-47 helicopter was shot down. A company of soldiers was flown to the rescue, but they were shot up and pinned down. More units hastily arrived and found two battalions of entrenched NVA fighters firing away at troopers scattered around an area that became known as "the graveyard." Several helicopters where shot down during this three-day melee that left 140 Americans dead and 220 wounded.

10. Battle of Ho Bo Woods - On July 19, 1966, Company A, 1st Bn, 27th Rgt, 25th Division helicoptered into an LZ with 92 soldiers on a search and destroy mission. There is no account of what happened next, except that 25 were killed and 32 wounded as the company fled aboard helicopters, leaving 16 of their dead behind.

11. "Black Friday"- Strike aircraft losses were common, but on December 2, 1966 the U.S. Air Force lost five aircraft and the Navy lost three aircraft to surface to air missiles or anti-aircraft gun fire. Air Force losses included three F-4Cs, one RF-4C, and an F-105. The Navy lost one F-4B and two Douglas A-4C Skyhawks.

12. Battle near Vinh Huy - During Operation Union II, six rifle companies from the 5th Marines swept the Que Son Valley in search of the enemy. They located a large enemy force 1000 yards ahead across an open rice paddy. After some air and artillery strikes, three companies were ordered to charge across the open ground, and were shot to pieces. The bloodied Marines fell back during this June 2, 1967 battle with 71 KIA and 139 wounded.

13. August 1967 Air Battle - This war produced two American "Ace" fighter pilots (i.e. more than five aerial kills), yet the North Vietnamese had 16, including Nguyen Van Coc (right), the top Ace of the war with nine kills. On Aug. 23, 1967, Coc led several MIG fighters to intercept a group of 40 American aircraft on a bombing mission. They shot down three American F-4D fighters and one F-105D fighter-bomber without losing a single MIG. Eight American aviators were killed or captured.

14. Battle of Prek Klok - During Operation Junction City, Company B from the 1st Battalion/16th Infantry went in search of the NVA. Independent accounts cannot be found, yet the Army's official history notes the company was blasted and nearly surrounded until rescued when another company came to its aid, allowing it to retreat. Company B was extracted by helicopter after suffering 25 dead and 28 wounded. Army Generals declared victory and awarded the company commander a silver star.

15. Operation Swift - U.S. Marines fought tough battles along the DMZ when NVA units moved across the border to inflict heavy causalities. Marine Generals sent rifle companies with ~140 Marines to search for and destroy the NVA intruders with artillery and airpower. This was effective, but larger NVA units sometimes trapped them in kill zones. In September 1967, they ambushed two Marine companies in the Que Son Valley. Operation Swift was launched to save them from destruction, but the two companies sent to the rescue were mauled. The end result was 127 Marines killed and 362 wounded. The NVA suffered more casualties, but accomplished their mission and withdrew northward.

16. Kingfisher Battle - In 1967, "Operation Kingfisher" was launched to destroy NVA forces just south of the DMZ. On Sept. 21st, the 2nd battalion, 4th Marines began a "search and destroy" mission and quickly encountered the entrenched 90th NVA regiment. The Marines lacked tank support because recent rains limited road mobility, while the dense vegetation and close proximity of the enemy restricted air and artillery support. After a day-long battle, the Marines had suffered at least 16 dead and 118 wounded while trying to break out of the enemy's kill zone. The battalion withdrew at dusk, although flee may be a better term since 15 dead Marines were left behind. Details are sketchy, but the battalion didn't return to collect its dead until three weeks later. Veterans of the battle state they lost 34 KIA that day.

17. Convoy Ambush near An Khe - In Sept 1967, 39 trucks from the U.S. Army's 8th Transportation Group were returning home after delivering supplies to Plekiu. They were escorted by two gun jeeps in an area considered mostly secure by the presence of the 1st Calvary Division. A Viet Cong company ambushed this big convoy in broad daylight. Seven Americans were killed, 17 wounded, and 30 vehicles were damaged or destroyed. The VC quickly disappeared and no evidence of enemy casualties were found.

18. Task Force Black Mauled - Half of the 1st Battalion/501st Regiment/173rd Airborne Brigade went in search for the NVA who had recently attacked their base. They ran into two NVA battalions, who shot them up from three directions. The rest of the battalion was sent to save them, and withdrew with 20 dead, 154 wounded, and two missing.

19. Battle near Ap Bac - The U.S. Army's 9th Infantry Division operated in the marshy delta region of southern Vietnam, often with Navy river patrol boats. During a routine battalion sweep, Alpha company from the 2nd Brigade crossed an open rice paddy and encountered Viet Cong ready to fight from concrete bunkers. Most of the company was wiped out in the first five minutes, and rest pinned down in the kill zone for hours until other companies arrived. This battle left 40 American dead and 140 wounded.

20. Battle for Hill 861 - In 1967, Bravo Company, 1st battalion, 9th Marines went to search for caves on Hill 861. After a skirmish, the company attacked up the hill without knowing that it had encountered a large enemy force. Most of Bravo was wiped out and the survivors were pinned down until rescued by Kilo company that night.

21. Ambush at Hoc Mon - In 1968, 92 American soldiers of C Company, 4th Battalion, 9th Infantry Regiment, 25th Division began a search-and-destroy mission near Saigon. They were looking for a Viet Cong force that had been firing rockets into their Tan Son Nhut Air Base. As they rushed along a road without flank security to catch up with their battalion, they ran into an ambush. Within eight minutes, 49 American soldiers were dead or dying, and 29 were wounded.

22. Battle of Kham Duc - This large Special Forces camp was abandoned as it was overrun, despite reinforcement by an American infantry battalion from the 196th brigade. Hundreds of friendly civilians and militiamen were left behind as Americans escaped aboard helicopters and C-130s.

23. Khe Sahn Village Overrun - A large village three kilometers from the famous Khe Sahn military base was defended by 160 local troops, plus 15 American advisors and heavy artillery from the base. In January 1968, it was attacked by a ~300-man NVA battalion. Reinforcements were dispatched aboard nine UH-1 helicopters, but were wiped out after landing near the NVA, along with one helicopter. A small ground rescue force from the nearby base was repulsed, while the survivors from the village assault fled to the Khe Sahn base.

24. Battle of the Slopes - A company of American paratroopers was searching for the NVA in rough terrain when it was attacked by a large force. It suffered 76 KIA as it fled, with two platoons wiped out.

25. Battle of No Goi Island - The Viet Cong liked to fortify ambush sites and wait for the Americans to discover them. During Operation Allen Brook, three battalions of Marines swept through No Goi Island and found lots of Viet Cong ready to fight from bunkers near the village of Le Bac. During several days of bloody assaults, the Marines suffered 138 killed and 686 wounded (576 seriously) before the surviving Viet Cong fled. The extreme heat resulted in another 283 Marines evacuated due to heat stroke. Having suffered 50% causalities, Allen Brook was halted until fresh Marine units arrived.

26. Battle at the Ben Cui Rubber Plantation - American mechanized units had the firepower and mobility to rout any NVA force. An exception occurred in 1968 during a routine road sweep when Company C, 1st Bn (Mech), 25th Division ran into an aggressive NVA regiment. It quickly lost 5 APCs (right), with 17 killed (leaving just one officer), and two dozen wounded before it retreated to its home base, leaving most of its dead behind.

27. Battle of Dai Do - A Marine Corps infantry battalion was mauled and forced to retreat after a disorganized attempt to dislodge a large North Vietnamese force near the DMZ. The Marines suffered 81 KIA and 397 wounded while killing hundreds of NVA. Accounts of this action are hidden within reports of operations in region of Dong Ha.

28. Battle of Ong Thanh - After minor enemy contact the previous day, a battalion commander led 155 American soldiers single-file into the bush to destroy the enemy. They ran into an NVA regiment with some 1400 men. Alpha company was wiped out in 20 minutes, and by sundown, 59 American soldiers lay dead with 75 wounded. An excellent documentary is on-line where survivors describe the onslaught.

29. Battle for LZ Loon - The Marines landed on Hill 672 to build an artillery fire support base. The NVA objected, and sent a battalion to attack the two undermanned companies from the 4th Marines. After a day of heavy fighting that included NVA artillery fire, half the Marines were casualties. It was decided to abandon the hill by helicopter, leaving most of the dead behind. One helicopter was shot down during the extraction after this battle that left 41 Marines dead and over 100 wounded.

30. Battle of Two July - The 1st battalion, 9th Marines went up a road to find the NVA, and found them. Information is vague, but Bravo Company was overrun and the remnants of Alpha Company pulled back, leaving a combined 53 known dead, 190 wounded, and 34 missing.

31. Battle for Hill 875 - or the Siege of Dak To - The 2nd battalion of the 173rd Airborne Brigade with over 300 soldiers advanced up this hill with artillery and air support. They encountered stiff resistance and suffered heavy causalities, but were shocked when the NVA counterattacked. The battalion formed a tight defensive perimeter and was surrounded while chaos ensued after a Marine Corps' jet dropped a 500 lbs bomb on their position. The brigade's 4th battalion arrived the following day and broke the siege, then advanced to secure the hill after the NVA withdrew. Of the 570 US troops involved in the attack on the hill, 340 became casualties.

32. Battle for Firebase Mary Ann - Some 50 NVA sappers attacked at night, then slipped away. The U.S. Army suffered 33 killed and 83 wounded among the 231 soldiers at the base. Their brigade commander was relieved of duty and the firebase closed.

33. Battle of Ngok Tavak - On May 10, 1968, an NVA battalion attacked an old French fort manned by a 150 Chinese mercenaries led by eight American Special Force troopers and three Australian advisors, plus 33 U.S. Marine Corps artillerymen with two 105mm howitzers. Helicopters flew in 45 more Marines as reinforcements and evacuated casualties during the day-long battle. The fort was overrun and everyone fled, with some literally clinging to the skids of a helicopter. At least 32 Americans were killed and several helicopters shot down. A book about this lost battle was published, and a short account is here.

34. Battle of Lang Vei - In 1968, the NVA surprised everyone by using light tanks to overrun the well-defended U.S. Special Forces camp at Lang Vei, despite heavy American artillery and air support. Most of the 500 defending Montagnards were killed. Losses among the 24 Americans were 7 KIA, 3 POWs, and 11 wounded.

35. Ambush near Khe Sahn - On Feb 25, 1968, a 41-man platoon from the 26th Marines was sent on a short patrol "outside the wire" to test the strength of NVA units near Khe Sahn village. They pursed three VC scouts who led them into an ambush. The platoon was wiped out during a three-hour battle that left 31 Marines KIA, one taken prisoner, while nine Marines escaped back to their base.

36. Battle of Thon La Chu - The 1968 Tet offensive caught the U.S. military by surprise, and the NVA captured the city of Hue. During this chaos, the cavalry was sent to save the Marines as the Army's lightly armed 2nd battalion/12th Cavalry flew to the rescue in helicopters. After landing, it charged across an open rice paddy without its customary artillery or air support and suffered considerable casualties. The enemy had superior numbers, superior positions, and enough firepower to encircle the battalion. With 60% casualties, no supplies and little air support, the battalion was lucky to slip away at night and flee total destruction.

37. Fall of A Shau - The NVA sent five battalions to overrun this large Special Forces camp near the Vietnam border. It was defended by 380 local troops led by 17 Americans. After a day of heavy fighting, the defenders faced defeat. Five of the Americans fled by helicopter leaving behind 8 American dead and 5 missing. Most of the local troops were left behind. Another seven Americans died providing air support.

38. Battle near Hill 689 - On April 16, 1968 a Marine Corps company began a patrol near its Khe Sahn base. It wandered into tall vegetation and was decimated by concealed NVA soldiers in bunkers. Two more companies from 1st Battalion, 9th Marines were dispatched to save them, but they became ensnarled in this confusing battle in which dead and wounded Marines were left behind as the battalion retreated back to Khe Sahn in disarray. This resulted in 41 KIA, 32 wounded, with 2 of 15 MIAs later rescued by helicopters. The battalion commander was relieved of duty.

39. Attack on Nui Ba Den - A hundred NVA launched a surprise assault on a poorly defended American signal intelligence station atop Nui Ba Den mountain. The base was quickly overrun and burned to the ground. The NVA killed 24 Americans, wounded 35, and 2 were taken prisoner as the NVA withdrew. Most Americans survived in one bunker or by fleeing the base and hiding among boulders. Some refer to the battle as a massacre because the attack was so sudden that many soldiers had no rifles to defend themselves.

40. Battle of Lima Site 85 - The USAF established a secret navigation site atop a remote mountain in Laos to allow all-weather bombing northward. The NVA learned of this and surprised the Americans with their mountain climbing skills. The site was overrun as seven Americans escaped aboard a rescue helicopter, leaving 12 dead airmen behind while their 42 supporting CIA funded Asian mercenary soldiers perished.

41. Battle of Hamburger Hill - A battalion from the 101st Airborne (3/187) encountered stiff resistance on rugged Hill 937. It was unable to capture the summit due to steep, dense terrain, well-built enemy bunkers, a deadly friendly fire incident, and fierce NVA defenders. A second battalion (1/506) was sent to attack from the south, but it suffered the same fate. Small NVA counterattacks caused confusion and several more deadly friendly fire incidents. Aggressive American commanders ordered repeated attacks for three days until 3/187 had lost 60% of its men and withdrew, while 1/506 remained pinned down.

More battalions eventually arrived to join the attack. ARVN scouts reported the NVA had left the mountain, nevertheless, a two hour aerial bombardment commenced before the American battalions walked up Hill 937 to proclaim victory, and then withdrew a few days later. These frontal assaults resulted in 84 American dead with 480 wounded, and the loss of several helicopters, leading to the nickname "Hamburger Hill" where GIs were ground up. Given the heavy causalities suffered for nothing gained, this was a defeat.

42. Attack on Cu Chi - In February 1969, enemy commandos attacked the large U.S. Army airfield at Cu Chi. They destroyed nine large CH-47 helicopters, heavily damaged three more, and caused minor damage to two others. (photos are here) 14 Americans were killed and 29 wounded during the three-hour battle.

43. Battle of Plei Trap - During Operation Wayne Grey, 115 soldiers from Alpha Company of the 4th Infantry Division helicoptered into a remote area in search of the NVA. They found lots of them, and suffered 35 KIA, 51 WIA, and 7 MIA as they were overrun. A lieutenant who heroically led a retreat of the survivors was almost court-martialed by senior officers trying to cover-up this disaster.

44. Firebase Airborne Overrun - There are several short, vague accounts about how this artillery firebase was overrun on May 13, 1969. One veteran believes it was bait to draw the NVA into combat. VC sappers slipped inside its weak defenses and exploded the artillery ammunition dump, killing a dozen and causing confusion. The NVA swept through the base at night killing and wounding most defenders and destroying its big guns. Many Americans managed to hide until the NVA left before dawn, so the base was never officially captured. However, it was wrecked and abandoned.

45. Battle near FSB Professional - The NVA shot down a big CH-47 helicopter as it delivered supplies to this fire support base. Company A of the Army's 1/46 Infantry with 91 soldiers was sent outside the wire to eliminate the threat. It was mauled during a 35-hour battle, and its 47 surviving soldiers fled, leaving their dead and some wounded behind.

46. Attack on FSB Henderson - As American troops withdrew from Vietnam, NVA sappers attacked this artillery base. They charged through the hilltop killing 27 soldiers from the 101st division and wounding 40. Most of the howitzers and artillery ammunition were destroyed by satchel charges before the NVA disappeared into the night.

47. Battle for Firebase Ripcord - American Generals made one final attempt to block the Ho Chi Minh trail, and found more NVA troops than expected. As the NVA assaulted remote Fire Support Base Ripcord, Generals decided to evacuate the base. Four American battalions from the 3rd Brigade, 101st Division conducted a fighting aerial evacuation that lasted 23 days, with the loss of at least 75 American KIA and 463 wounded. Dozens of helicopters were shot down or damaged, while several soldiers and all major items of equipment were left behind.

48. June 1972 Air Battle - While superior aircraft of the USA won most air battles, the smaller MIGs flown by North Vietnamese pilots won many battles, which remain mostly hidden from history. An interesting website that documents combat losses sheds some light. It notes that MIGs shot down five American F-4 fighters on June 27, 1972, and cross referencing the date for American air victories shows no MIG kills.
     Date    Unit     Aircraft    Pilot                    Weapon    Victim    
27Jun72    921    MiG-21    Nguyen Duc Nhu    R-3S            F-4E    USAF (Sullivan/Francis)
27Jun72     927    MiG-21MF    Ngo Duy Thu    R-3S      F-4E    USAF (Dam)
27Jun72    927    MiG-21MF    Nguyen Doc Soat  R-3S    F-4E (67-0248)    308TFS/USAF (Cerak/Dingee)
27Jun72    927    MiG-21MF    Pham Phu Thai    R-3S            F-4E (69-7271)    366TFW/USAF (Aikman/Hanton)
27Jun72    927    MiG-21MF    Bui Thanh Liem    R-3S            F-4E (69-7296))    366TFW/USAF (Miller/McDow

It would be interesting to know what happened that day, but the USAF chose not to document this air battle. Vietnamese pilots were more experienced, more familiar with the airspace, flew shorter missions, and could choose their fights, so they sometimes surprised American pilots.

49. Day Three of Operation Linebacker II - Of the 99 huge B-52 bombers in this Dec. 20, 1972 bombing raid on targets around Hanoi, eight were lost to enemy fire, resulting in 36 airmen killed or captured. The Strategic Air Command (SAC) blamed the tactics utilized (flight paths, altitudes, formations, timing, etc.), which had not varied from raids the two previous days. Air Force historian Earl Tilford noted: "Years of dropping bombs on undefended jungle and the routines of planning for nuclear war had fostered a mind-set within the SAC command that nearly led to disaster."

50. Battle of Koh Tang - This was the last battle of the war. In 1975, Khmer Rouge patrol boats seized the container ship, USS Mayaquez, which was the last American ship to leave Saigon. Surveillance indicated the ship anchored at Koh Tang island, so the U.S. Marine Corps assembled a  rescue force. Most helicopters were shot up while landing Marines on the island and were disabled or crashed. The Marines faced stiff enemy resistance and were pinned down. It was then discovered that the Mayaquez crew had already been freed on a small boat, so the landing force was recalled. A total of 18 GIs were killed and 41 wounded in the rescue attempt, while 23 airmen perished in a helicopter accident during the preparation stage.


This was disputed by America's most decorated officer of that war, Col. David Hackworth, in his book "About Face." The U.S. military had every advantage, yet mistakes were made and battles lost.

This proves that many battles were lost during the Vietnam war. There were more, but hiding embarrassing losses is standard procedure in any military organization. This is shown in that documentary about the Battle of Ong Thanh, where survivors tell how commanders tried to spin that loss as a victory, while the loss of FSB Ripcord was hidden from the public until 1985, and the slaughter at Ho Bo Woods wasn't recognized until 2011. This list does not include battles lost by the Army of South Vietnam, whose forces were supported by American firepower.

Some veterans may be upset by these accounts because the U.S. military won nearly all other battles. However, this destroys the myth that no battles were lost. Some may claim these were too small to be counted as battles, yet the U.S. military and historians note most of these as battles. Others will argue that some were stalemates, and insist that a larger enemy "body count" meant victory, although it was common to greatly inflate enemy losses. Given our tremendous advantage in artillery and airpower, battles with large American causalities were losses, which led to the decision to withdraw from Vietnam. NVA Generals stated their objective was to inflict casualties on American forces, not to seize ground or avoid casualties themselves.

Historical debates are common, but no sane person will claim that none of the 50 engagements listed here were losses. In contrast, the publication of this article is likely to generate more nominations from combat veterans. Wikipedia is often linked for details because it provides concise accounts with notes to sources. One can search the Internet for more information if they doubt what they read there. The point is that myths of American military invincibility may cause future miscalculations, and more lost battles. Ignoring these losses does great disservice to all those brave men who fought and died in these battles, as well as those now dying in Afghanistan.

Ironically, the USA succeeded in Vietnam only after its military left. Billions of dollars in annual aid were no longer required, while American GIs were no longer killed or maimed. There was no Chinese communist takeover of the region. In contrast, traditional rivalries resurfaced leading to a short, yet bloody, war between China and Vietnam in 1979. Without the distraction of fighting a war, the Vietnamese government was forced to address economic problems. It recognized the need for foreign trade and the value of free enterprise and has become a capitalistic economic power. American corporations now operate factories in Vietnam while United Airlines has daily flights.

Given the ample historical facts available, many historians are amazed this "we never lost a battle" myth persists. Part of the blame lies with certain professors, who published this myth in articles like: "Lessons of History and Lessons of Vietnam" where in 1986 U.S. Army Major David H. Petraeus (left) wrote: "Vietnam planted doubts in many military minds about the ability of US forces to conduct successful large-scale counterinsurgencies. These misgivings do not in all cases spring from doubts about the capabilities of American troops and units per se; even in Vietnam, military leaders recall US units never lost a battle." Despite this dismal scholarship, Petraeus became a four-star General, partly due to marriage to the daughter of four-star Army General William Knowlton. General Petraeus was in charge of counterinsurgency operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, and since he failed to learn from the Vietnam war, he failed in those conflicts because of persistent myths of U.S. military invincibility.

To a large extent this myth was put forth as a way of taking a lot of the sting out of the way the Vietnam war ended. The sad truth is that it has kept many old wounds open....


Primary Sources:
http://www.g2mil.com/lost_vietnam.htm


Good Hunting.

MR
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Mad_Russian
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« Reply #1 on: 13 March 2012, 07:49:39 »
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If you still have doubts watch the documentary on this battle and then you decide if the US won every battle.

28. Battle of Ong Thanh - After minor enemy contact the previous day, a battalion commander led 155 American soldiers single-file into the bush to destroy the enemy. They ran into an NVA regiment with some 1400 men. Alpha company was wiped out in 20 minutes, and by sundown, 59 American soldiers lay dead with 75 wounded. An excellent documentary is on-line where survivors describe the onslaught.





Good Hunting.

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« Reply #2 on: 14 March 2012, 18:09:53 »
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With 155 soldiers against an enemy regiment in hiding with 1400 troops.....no chance at all if you ask me.
Maybe at night in the desert with a technolical advantage but not in the jungle.
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« Reply #3 on: 14 March 2012, 20:46:39 »
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Quote
There are many who claim the U.S. military never lost a battle


I have been one to say this, and on these very pages. However, based on Mad Russians eloquent proof, I humbly stand corrected. I also stand stripped of another little bit of my pride in having served. You see, having come back from my service in Vietnam, to a country not happy to see me, as well as pissed because we lost, I guess I leaned on that false sense of accomplishment in order to muddle along. But the truth will be known, and our detractors can once again bask in their righteousness, and in the integrity of their facts. Facts that point us out as the failures we were.
Do not cry for me however, as I will always retain the honor for having volunteered to go to Vietnam when my country called. I did not join and sit idly by in the rear somewhere, while my Brothers spilt their blood. No, I stood right beside some who gave their full measure, and was ready to give mine, for I am a warrior, tried and true, regardless of that war's politics or outcome.
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« Reply #4 on: 15 March 2012, 00:10:01 »
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There are lots of issues with the Vietnam War.

About as many as there are those that served.

What I think needs to happen is the truth. We are a nation that is adamant to get the truth. Never more so than from our government and those that protect us.

My own personal opinion is that trying to deny the truth of the matter belittles the events and accomplishments of what happened.

No war I've ever read about did one side win all the battle but lose the wat. That assumption alone doesn't make sense. Anybody but the US Military knows that's not really something that can happen. But the US Military didn't like the taste of leaving Vietnam without winning the war. I would agree with that. What I don't agree to is that our guys fought any less valiant, walked less clicks, humped less jungle because the enemy won an engagement here and there along the way.

I've heard and read on considerable occasions that the NVA were the best light infantry in the world at that time. They had fought almost continuously from 1942 through the mid 70's. There is no doubt they were good. But if they were the best light infantry in the world how did US forces win every battle against them? Wouldn't that make US infantry the best light infantry in the world?

It can't be both ways. Both sides can't be the best and yet only US forces winning every battle.

Did US forces win battles? Yes, they did.

Were those impressive wins? Many times they were.

A part of the problem is what the definition of 'winning' was used by US Forces.

When there was a high enemy body count we won. No matter what our own losses were of the fact that we left 2 days later to let the enemy reoccupy the very same ground that was taken.

When we took a terrain objective we won. Except that South Vietnam is roughly the size of the state of New Mexico and the Free World Forces aligned against the communists could only maintain control over the larger urban areas. Most of the time. They were never at any time in control of rural South Vietnam and as the saying went....The night belonged to Sir Charles.

We had a large percentage of junior officers and NCO's that were the product of rapid training programs to produce junior leaders. Such organizations as ROTC, OCS and NCO academies. They did produce junior leaders. Their effectiveness until they learned their trade under fire was extremely limited. But even with this kind of a junior leadership cadre we beat the best light infantry in the world every time? Really?

In a 10 year long war we never lost a single battle? Really? In point of fact we lost dozens of actions, if not hundreds. They are easily found if you go looking for them. But just as easily found and identified are the dozens and hundreds of engagements where US forces won the engagement. Simply because a unit lost an engagement doesn't mean they didn't fight well. There are lots of reasons battles are lost.

Even though that spin of never having lost a battle was put out to the general public, as a way of blaming the government for the end result, there can be no doubt in any person that has studied even a small amount of history that there has never been a more blatantly false assumption. The US military certainly didn't believe it there wouldn't have been so many changes from the 'lessons' of the results of the fighting. If we were already winning every battle we wouldn't have needed to make any changes to anything. In most instances the higher US Military command and the US Government were responsible for putting troops in a bad situation vs communist forces. Of that there can be no doubt. The US military often fought the Vietnam War with it's hands tied behind it's back. That still doesn't change the fact that we didn't win every battle or engagement.

What bothers me is that engagements where US troops were beaten are the ones that should be studied most to find the reason for the defeats and make the changes to the tactics, operational control and doctrine that caused that defeat in the first place. Replace the idiotic ROE with something more reasonable, is just a single example of how that could have better served our troops with boots on the ground.

No, far from denigrating the efforts and achievements of what our troops actually did do, the 'never lost a battle' covers up inept leadership, tactical and operational mistakes, and a system set in place that was heavily slanted for the promotion of officers with combat experience. A system that was extremely flawed and allowed ROTC and OCS Shake and Bake officers with no combat experience to lead units into situations they were unprepared to handle.

Losing a battle is not some great smear on our honor as a nation or a unit's effectiveness. It's obvious that even all these years later the issues bring up raw points. For many the emotional state of having lived through it is very strong. They did the best they could. And yet they were let down by the US government. There can be no doubt about that.

It's because of the service that our nations soldiers provided in that war that I believe the truth needs to be told about how it was waged and the results of those decisions.

Thank you personally Jody for having served 'In Country', during the Vietnam War. You and all those that were called up and went should hold your head high at what you did accomplish. You came SO CLOSE...and, for me, that's part of what makes the result bitter.

Good Hunting.

MR



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Mad_Russian
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« Reply #5 on: 31 March 2012, 17:54:13 »
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While there were obviously smaller battles lost by US forces I believe it is entirely accurate to say that the US military did not have an operation that they did not beat the Communist forces against them.

The communist forces never had much of a chance in the major operations that were fielded by US forces. With the tremendous firepower and support to them US forces were going to be able to punish any communist force that tried to stand and fight for any length of time. Every operation that I have read about or had participants recall ended in punishing losses for the communist forces involved.

Some of those defeats are historical in their size. During Tet of 1968 the Viet Cong was effectively destroyed as a fighting force. By the end of 1970 there were virtually no VC units left with any South Vietnamese recruits in them. Those that were in the field were filled with NVA regulars that were used as reinforcements to keep the VC units on the OOB and in the news.

The NVA Campaign to overrun the Khe Sahn base was a resounding victory considering the NVA intended on either overrunning the base or ambushing large forces sent to relieve the siege. Neither of those happened. Even though the CIDG camp at Lang Vei was overrun with the use of light tanks the NVA took a tremendous beating trying to do the same at Khe Sahn and the surrounding terrain.

On June 28, a Communist spokesman claimed the Americans had been forced to retreat and that Khe Sanh was the "gravest tactical and strategic defeat" for the U.S. in the war. It was the only time Americans abandoned a major combat base because of enemy pressure. So, here again, what is victory? The US/Free World countries were fighting a war of attrition. They thought they could break the North Vietnamese will to fight simply by making it too costly in human terms. The North Vietnamese were fighting a war of occupation. They wanted to occupy South Vietnam. Here is an example of how the two were at odds yet gave the same result. The USMC did eventually leave the Khe Sanh base, but did it on their own terms in their own time. They did inflict at least 5 times more casualties on the communists than they themselves suffered. So, no matter whose victory terms you choose to look at Khe Sahn was a victory for US forces.

From the opening of US offensive actions with Operation Starlight where the USMC defeated the Viet Cong's best regiment, to Operation Silver Bayonet where the US 1st Cav took on an NVA Division in the Ia Drang Valley through the way to the last operation for Fire Base Ripcord US forces caused tremendous casualties on communist forces.

Whether the operations were of US or VC/NVA origin US/Free World forces always won the operations. The communists learned the hard way and didn't launch major operations of their own often. And when major US/Free World Forces were involved their main tactic was to ambush the search units in the process of leaving the area. When they were found by the search tactics they were often destroyed as a combat effective unit. Often for months or a year afterwards.


Good Hunting.

MR
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