War & Conflicts Discussions => Panzer IV & its variants => Topic started by: Alan65 on 19 January 2009, 21:22:19



Title: Panzer IV/70 compared with JagdPanzer IV
Post by: Alan65 on 19 January 2009, 21:22:19
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x241/Alanp_photo/WWII/GermanPzIV-70SdKfz162-1.jpg)
this Panzer IV/70(V) is in a museum in Ottawa, Canada.  Also known as the Sd.Kfz.162/1.

Armed with Panther's 7.5cm gun, about 1,200 produced.  (this from the ASL notes chapter on vehicles; this also mentions that it's long gun and heavy frontal armor made it hard to steer.)


Title: Re: Panzer IV/70
Post by: [hirr]Leto on 19 January 2009, 23:36:10
The IV/70 is overly prone to gun damage in Combat Mission modelling... I can see why... the fronal armor is dominated by the gun mantel.

Cheers!

Leto


Title: Jagdpanzer IV
Post by: von Staudt on 20 January 2009, 02:49:34
I think I figured it out.  I used the IRL, but should have used the image code.

(http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr252/Wargamer45/Munster/JJS155.jpg)

(http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr252/Wargamer45/Munster/JJS001.jpg)

(http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr252/Wargamer45/Munster/JJS002.jpg)

Jagdpanzer IV

Awesome!   :D


Title: Re: Panzer IV/70
Post by: Tanker on 20 January 2009, 03:11:19
What good would those skirts do to protect the suspension and tracks?  They don't look like they'd stop an atr round.


Title: Re: Panzer IV/70
Post by: von Staudt on 20 January 2009, 05:06:49
Tanker,

They are for protection from shaped charges, like the bazooka.  They set off the charge before it gets to the primary armor and prevents penetration.

Check out this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_charge


Title: Re: Panzer IV/70
Post by: Alan65 on 20 January 2009, 19:19:26
what is the 'scoring' called on the bottom two images?  did it help camoflague? (less glare/reflection from shiny metal in the sun, for example?)

'Schuerzen' (aprons) are modelled in ASL by doubling the lower die on the 'To Kill' dice roll if hit on a covered side.  the vehicle also loses its Sz if it enters a building/woods obstacle or rubble.  What does CM do?

no muzzle brake on the one in my image.



Title: Re: Panzer IV/70
Post by: stoffel on 20 January 2009, 19:37:54
Nope the paste you see is Zimmerit.

It had nothing to do with camouflage but this ceramic paste was used to protect the vehicle from magnetic mines.
The IV-L70 had the gun you see in the upper picture (without the muzzlebrake), I guess the museum put the other gun (which looks to me like the standard 75L46 STUG III gun) on the vehicle you see on the other picture.


Title: Re: Panzer IV/70
Post by: Tanker on 20 January 2009, 20:46:00
Tanker,

They are for protection from shaped charges, like the bazooka.  They set off the charge before it gets to the primary armor and prevents penetration.

Check out this link:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_charge[/url]



That would make more sense if they extended to the top to the vehicle.  As it is the top half is not covered by them.  Pehaps they felt the sloped armor would be less vulnerable to shaped charges?


Title: Re: Panzer IV/70
Post by: von Staudt on 20 January 2009, 20:54:28
what is the 'scoring' called on the bottom two images?  did it help camoflague? (less glare/reflection from shiny metal in the sun, for example?)

'Schuerzen' (aprons) are modelled in ASL by doubling the lower die on the 'To Kill' dice roll if hit on a covered side.  the vehicle also loses its Sz if it enters a building/woods obstacle or rubble.  What does CM do?

no muzzle brake on the one in my image.




I'm not sure how CM handles Schuerzen.  I bet someone here does though.   8)

There is a scroll bar under the three pictures so you can scroll over to see the muzzle brakes.


Title: Re: Panzer IV/70
Post by: von Staudt on 20 January 2009, 20:55:43
Tanker,

They are for protection from shaped charges, like the bazooka.  They set off the charge before it gets to the primary armor and prevents penetration.

Check out this link:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_charge[/url]



That would make more sense if they extended to the top to the vehicle.  As it is the top half is not covered by them.  Pehaps they felt the sloped armor would be less vulnerable to shaped charges?



I think you are right about the slope.  On tank turrets they add the skirts there too.


Title: Re: Panzer IV/70
Post by: Koen on 20 January 2009, 21:09:56
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a65/VirtualReality/CM/tankdefensiveweapon-1.jpg)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a65/VirtualReality/CM/tankdefensiveweapon-2.jpg)

PzIV/70 in CM using it's close-defence weapons


Title: Re: Panzer IV/70
Post by: Alan65 on 26 January 2009, 20:44:12
Nope the paste you see is Zimmerit.
It had nothing to do with camouflage but this ceramic paste was used to protect the vehicle from magnetic mines.
The IV-L70 had the gun you see in the upper picture(without the muzzlebrake), I guess the museum put the other gun( which looks to me like the standard 75L46 STUG III gun)on the vehicle you see on the other picture.


Ah, thanks, Stoffel!  I have heard of Zimmerit--and it, too, is modelled in ASL!--but I have never seen it, that I know of, and up so close.


Title: Re: Panzer IV/70
Post by: rick on 20 March 2009, 23:33:08
what is the 'scoring' called on the bottom two images?  did it help camoflague? (less glare/reflection from shiny metal in the sun, for example?)

'Schuerzen' (aprons) are modelled in ASL by doubling the lower die on the 'To Kill' dice roll if hit on a covered side.  the vehicle also loses its Sz if it enters a building/woods obstacle or rubble.  What does CM do?

no muzzle brake on the one in my image.




I'm not sure how CM handles Schuerzen.  I bet someone here does though.   8)

There is a scroll bar under the three pictures so you can scroll over to see the muzzle brakes.


I'm not sure in CM, but in Panzer Command: Kharkov, the vehicle's have defined "locations" and damage tables for those locations.  So to show the effect of the Schuerzen, you could add a model with Schuerzin and modify the penetration at the track locations when hit from the side.  There are some modifiers as well, but not sure how they would be used.

I haven't done any modelling but the tables are all in XML so it's easy to add stuff.  I looked and saw data for a couple of Pz IV' 70's but I didn't see a visual model (though one may have been added by now).

Rick
 


Title: Re: Panzer IV/70
Post by: Earl Grey on 18 June 2009, 15:55:54
Not exactly belonging here, but I'll answer: Schürzen are modelled in CM, though not for every vehicle. If the vehicle in question has indeed skirts as per rule, check the info screen for 'has skirts'. It does apply only in a very general way and not for every vehicle that historically carried skirts (Pamntehrs don't have that special rule, for example).

Apart from that there is a difference between teh different vehicles shown here - the top most is indeed a Panzer IV/70 (mid or late model), the others are, in fact, Jagdpanzer IV. No I know they have the same cahssis and armor (more or less), but the guns are different - the Jagdpanzer Iv carrying a L/48 75mm gun and the Panzer IV/70 a L/70 75mm (hence the name). Besides, there's still the differnece between the Panzer IV/70 manufactured by Alkett and those manufactured by Vomag. I can elaborate on this information if necessary. But don't confuse the different variants from now on anymore! ;)


Title: Re: Panzer IV/70 compared with JagdPanzer IV
Post by: Mad Russian on 19 June 2009, 02:47:10
The top picture is of a JgPzIV/70. The pictures of the vehicles with the muzzle brakes on them are JgPzIV's.

There were 769 JgPzIV's made from January through November 1944.

There were 1208 JgPz IV/70, (930 JgPz IV/70 (V) and 278 JgPz IV/70(A)) made from August 1944 through March 1945.

These vehicles were known as "Guderian's Duck".

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: Panzer IV/70 compared with JagdPanzer IV
Post by: Earl Grey on 20 June 2009, 19:07:42
Since we have started this topic, here are a few pictures that allow a quick and halfway accurate recognition:

(http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww164/earlofgrey/Misc/JgdPzIVearly.jpg)
- Jagdpanzer IV (early)

(http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww164/earlofgrey/Misc/JgdpzIVlate.jpg)
- Jagdpanzer IV (late) [Befehls-Ausführung]

Modifications of the L/48 gun during serial production:
(http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww164/earlofgrey/Misc/gunmantlets.jpg)

(http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww164/earlofgrey/Misc/pziv-70_1.jpg)
- PzIV/70(V) [August 1944]

(http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww164/earlofgrey/Misc/pziv-70_2.jpg)
- PzIV/70(V) [September-November 1944]

(http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww164/earlofgrey/Misc/pziv-70_3.jpg)
- PzIV/70(V) [November 1944-March 1945]

P.S.: These are, of course, not all modifications that happened during production, but the most important are shown. Mixing and macthing between variants happened with the JgdPzIV/PzIV/70 as well. But it is a start...


Title: Panzer IV/70 compared with JagdPanzer IV
Post by: Koen on 21 June 2009, 14:01:22
The top picture is of a JgPzIV/70. The pictures of the vehicles with the muzzle brakes on them are JgPzIV's.

There were 769 JgPzIV's made from January through November 1944.

There were 1208 JgPz IV/70, (930 JgPz IV/70 (V) and 278 JgPz IV/70(A)) made from August 1944 through March 1945.

These vehicles were known as "Guderian's Duck".

Good Hunting.

MR


some additional info:

Sd.Kfz.162 JagdPanzer IV L/48
Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5cm Pak L/48 auf fahrgestell Panzerkampfwagen IV
build at: Vomag
chassis: Pz IV Ausf. F (modified chassis)
numbers: 769
crew: 4

Gun: 7.5cm PaK 39 L/48
ammunition: 79: Panzergranatpatrone 39/42 (Pzgr.Patr.39) & Sprenggranatpatronen 37 (Sprgr.Patr.37)
secondary armament: MG-42 7.92mm
ammunition: 600 rounds

Engine: Maybach HL 120 TRM
Power: 300bHP 3000/min

Radio: FuG Spr f

Sd.Kfz.162 Panzer IV/70 (V)
build at: Vomag (V)
chassis: Pz IV Ausf. H (modified chassis)
numbers: 930
crew: 4

Gun: 7.5cm PaK 42 L/70
ammunition: 55: Panzergranatpatrone 39/42 (Pzgr.Patr.39/42)
secondary armament: MG-42 7.92mm
ammunition: 600 rounds
close defense: MP44

Engine: Maybach HL 120 TRM
Power: 300bHP 3000/min

Radio: FuG Spr f

Sd.Kfz.162 Panzer IV/70 Zwischenlösung
build at: Nibelungenwerke
chassis: Pz IV Ausf. J (Jagdpanzer superstructure mounted on original PzIV J chassis)
numbers: 278
crew: 4

Gun: 7.5cm PaK 42 L/70
ammunition: 60: Panzergranatpatrone 39/42 (Pzgr.Patr.39/42)
secondary armament: MG-42 7.92mm
ammunition: 600 rounds
close defense: MP44

Engine: Maybach HL 120 TRM
Power: 300bHP 3000/min

Radio: FuG 5


Title: Re: Panzer IV/70 compared with JagdPanzer IV
Post by: Earl Grey on 29 June 2009, 16:01:25
For reasons of completeness a few pictures for identifying the PzIV/70(A):

(http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww164/earlofgrey/Misc/pziv-70_4.jpg)
- PzIV/70(A) prototype

(http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww164/earlofgrey/Misc/pziv-70_5.jpg)
- top, front and rear view

A little variation during production:

(http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww164/earlofgrey/Misc/pziv-70_6.jpg)
- 2 steel wheels

(http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww164/earlofgrey/Misc/pziv-70_7.jpg)
- 4 steel wheels