25 May 2012, 05:35:03 *

Login with username, password and session length
Welcome to War and Tactics!    War and Tactics Forum has been heavily streamlined to help you find your place of interest faster. Hope you like it!
   
  Home   Forum   Help ! Forum Rules ! Search Calendar Donations Login Register Chat  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Share this topic on Del.icio.usShare this topic on DiggShare this topic on FacebookShare this topic on GoogleShare this topic on MySpaceShare this topic on RedditShare this topic on StumbleUponShare this topic on TechnoratiShare this topic on TwitterShare this topic on Yahoo
Author Topic: Identify  (Read 1097 times)
Koen
Lieutenant Colonel
****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4302




View Profile WWW
« on: 24 January 2011, 22:31:23 »
ReplyReply

help me in identifying these pictures, the more info the better  salute


1. Tiger & Pz IV?


2. same as 1. ?


3. Tiger ?


4. Pz IV commander?


5. same as 4.?
Logged

War Cemeteries and wargraves
Memorials and Celebrations
have a look at Pro Patria: HERE (currently on a hold due to housing issues :-) )
Earl Grey
Member of Staff

**

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 431




View Profile
« Reply #1 on: 24 January 2011, 23:22:15 »
ReplyReply

A fast, wild guess is PzRgt "Bäke". Maybe I can nail it down with the Tiger's turret number - not too many Tiger units around, that should give us a clue.
Logged

"You don't have to take things how they are - rather how they should be!" - Bastard Instructor From Hell
Denz
Private


Offline Offline

England

Posts: 2


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: 25 January 2011, 08:35:00 »
ReplyReply

I would say late model panzer IVs Ausf H or J for the majority of the pictures.
The Tiger also appears to be a late model so 1944 and onward.
But I could be wrong, very wrong. Isn't confidence great.
What are we saying the Tiger number is 22?

edit:
Picure 4 is definitely a Panzer IV commander
« Last Edit: 25 January 2011, 08:43:14 by Denz » Logged

               I'm never wrong, I'm just not always right                        RIP Planck
MontyB
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 875




View Profile
« Reply #3 on: 25 January 2011, 09:28:07 »
ReplyReply


What are we saying the Tiger number is 22?

edit:
Picure 4 is definitely a Panzer IV commander


Looks like 221 to me.
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Earl Grey
Member of Staff

**

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 431




View Profile
« Reply #4 on: 25 January 2011, 15:11:02 »
ReplyReply

"221" looks the part, but it coud be anything.

Tiger model can't be nailed down exactly, but most likely a 1944 model - that doesn't help us, though, since the TIges had about as many details changed during porduction sa all other German tanks. Grijns
Logged

"You don't have to take things how they are - rather how they should be!" - Bastard Instructor From Hell
Koen
Lieutenant Colonel
****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4302




View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: 25 January 2011, 19:34:13 »
ReplyReply



in detail, don't think it helps but it's worth the try  hihi
Logged

War Cemeteries and wargraves
Memorials and Celebrations
have a look at Pro Patria: HERE (currently on a hold due to housing issues :-) )
MontyB
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 875




View Profile
« Reply #6 on: 26 January 2011, 09:06:05 »
ReplyReply

Well I think I can answer part of this.

These pictures are of Unternehmen "Hubertus", the Tiger is Number 221 of Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501, the date the pictures were taken is March 1944 and by all accounts they are around Wospinzy (about 45km South East of Vitebsk) in support of a counter attack by the  256th Infanterie-Division and the Pz-IVs of the 20th Panzer Division.

Unfortunately I can't provide a complete source for this as there seems to be confusion over the operation names but the majority came from Tigers in Combat Vol I by Wolfgang Schneider.

Anyway I wont guarantee the information but I hope it is a starting point for people with more resources than myself.
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Koen
Lieutenant Colonel
****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4302




View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: 26 January 2011, 19:29:27 »
ReplyReply

Well I think I can answer part of this.

These pictures are of Unternehmen "Hubertus", the Tiger is Number 221 of Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501, the date the pictures were taken is March 1944 and by all accounts they are around Wospinzy (about 45km South East of Vitebsk) in support of a counter attack by the  256th Infanterie-Division and the Pz-IVs of the 20th Panzer Division.

Unfortunately I can't provide a complete source for this as there seems to be confusion over the operation names but the majority came from Tigers in Combat Vol I by Wolfgang Schneider.

Anyway I wont guarantee the information but I hope it is a starting point for people with more resources than myself.


good job, what got my attention are the well-equipped crews with winterclothing!
Logged

War Cemeteries and wargraves
Memorials and Celebrations
have a look at Pro Patria: HERE (currently on a hold due to housing issues :-) )
MontyB
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 875




View Profile
« Reply #8 on: 26 January 2011, 21:24:08 »
ReplyReply

I would not call this one "Identified" yet as there are some problems with my information.

For Example:
In the history of Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 it is referred to as Operation Hubertus (Nov 1942, Stalingrad) and in other sources Operation Humboldt (Greece)  neither of which took place in 1944.

So my "guess" was that this was a scratch formation more along the lines of a Kampfgruppe than an Operation.
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Earl Grey
Member of Staff

**

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 431




View Profile
« Reply #9 on: 27 January 2011, 14:31:44 »
ReplyReply

1942 is definitely NOT possible becasue there was no Zimmerit in 1942 yet. The earliest possible date is winter 1943/1944, so either the picture is misplaced or someone obviosuly got somethign wrong. I'll check the book, too - if nothing helps, there's a website dealing with the ID of individual Tigers. With a thorough search we should be able to find out which Tiger this is.
Logged

"You don't have to take things how they are - rather how they should be!" - Bastard Instructor From Hell
stoffel
WaT supporter
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Netherlands

Location: Eemnes The Netherlands
Posts: 1441




View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: 27 January 2011, 14:44:43 »
ReplyReply

Nothing on both operations in Sledgehammer.
I am pretty sure though I saw this picture before.
An individual tiger means nothing.
It can be the last remaining servicable vehicle of a company in support of a regular pz division.
Keep in mind these units were independable, accept for the 3rd SS which had an organic company of tigers.
Logged

Proud officer of the Emerald army, Onion war IV
http://www.onionwars.net/
Do NOT steal , your government doesnt like competition Knipoog
hyves:henk stoffers eemnes
stoffel
WaT supporter
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Netherlands

Location: Eemnes The Netherlands
Posts: 1441




View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: 27 January 2011, 14:48:43 »
ReplyReply

Ah I knew I saw it somewhere.
Its in one of my books , the picture has a number from the Bundesarchive.
BA/277/843/8
Maybe you can find its origine now, title said winter 43/44
Logged

Proud officer of the Emerald army, Onion war IV
http://www.onionwars.net/
Do NOT steal , your government doesnt like competition Knipoog
hyves:henk stoffers eemnes
Earl Grey
Member of Staff

**

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 431




View Profile
« Reply #12 on: 27 January 2011, 16:25:05 »
ReplyReply

An individual tiger means nothing.
It can be the last remaining servicable vehicle of a company in support of a regular pz division.


True, but not quite. The few Tiger units that were around had very distinctive markings and number style so one can actually track a Tiger down by number style alone if need be. Ichecked my Tiger books and it indeed seems as if the above was a Tiger of sPzAbt501 during winter 1943/1944 (a dedicated Tiger website seems to confirm that assumption).
That'd place the above scenes around Witebsk during December 1943.

Keep in mind these units were independable, accept for the 3rd SS which had an organic company of tigers.


Correct, but the numbering was completely different - in the early years it was a "Sxx" code and later it was a "9xx". "Totenkopf" did never have Tigers numbered "22x" during its lifetime.
Logged

"You don't have to take things how they are - rather how they should be!" - Bastard Instructor From Hell
MontyB
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 875




View Profile
« Reply #13 on: 28 January 2011, 01:28:27 »
ReplyReply

The following is from page 45 of Tigers in Combat Vol I by Wolfgang Schneider:



The records I am looking are for the 12-13 March 1944, this counter attack was also apparently supported by the 20th Panzer Division which I assume are the Pz-IVs seen in the photographs.
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Earl Grey
Member of Staff

**

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 431




View Profile
« Reply #14 on: 28 January 2011, 11:28:56 »
ReplyReply

Hm. Well, it doesn't matter all that much if ti was December 1943 or January 1944 - we have nailed it down to a specific date and a specific place so we're all happy. I agree it's rather January than December, though.
Logged

"You don't have to take things how they are - rather how they should be!" - Bastard Instructor From Hell
Koen
Lieutenant Colonel
****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4302




View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: 28 January 2011, 19:03:38 »
ReplyReply

Hm. Well, it doesn't matter all that much if ti was December 1943 or January 1944 - we have nailed it down to a specific date and a specific place so we're all happy. I agree it's rather January than December, though.



good work, nice conversation  roundclap

so tell me what title I should use to rename this topic  salute

more pictures I found on the HD wich gave me the feeling they belong to the 1st batch of pics:


« Last Edit: 28 January 2011, 22:19:53 by Koen » Logged

War Cemeteries and wargraves
Memorials and Celebrations
have a look at Pro Patria: HERE (currently on a hold due to housing issues :-) )
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Unique Hits: 2900973 | Sitemap
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.14 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!


Google visited last this page 11 May 2012, 06:36:52