25 October 2014, 23:08:50 *

Login with username, password and session length
Welcome to War and Tactics!    War and Tactics Forum has been heavily streamlined to help you find your place of interest faster. Hope you like it!
   
  Home   Forum   Help ! Forum Rules ! Search Calendar Donations Login Register Chat  
Pages:  [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Share this topic on Del.icio.usShare this topic on DiggShare this topic on FacebookShare this topic on GoogleShare this topic on MySpaceShare this topic on RedditShare this topic on StumbleUponShare this topic on TechnoratiShare this topic on TwitterShare this topic on Yahoo
Author Topic: Bi-plane with Star of David and German markings -- help identify please!  (Read 15318 times)
Alan65
The Postcard man
Captain
***

Offline Offline

United States

Location: Seattle
Posts: 766




View Profile WWW
« on: 11 April 2010, 04:29:41 »
ReplyReply


Here's a photo I recently came across which has me very intrigued.  This plane appears to be in some sort of (rather crowded) building; there are parts of planes and British or French markings on the piece on the left edge.  There appears to be a German cross and Star of David on the main plane's fuselage.  Is this correct?  There is nothing on the back. Can anyone ID the plane?  unit?  
Logged
MontyB
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1013




View Profile
« Reply #1 on: 11 April 2010, 08:12:45 »
ReplyReply

The aircraft looks like a Fokker D.VII to me, possibly that of Ltn. Adolf Auer from Jasta 40.
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Koen
Lieutenant Colonel
****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4430




View Profile
« Reply #2 on: 11 April 2010, 12:44:06 »
ReplyReply

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/2001/12086-jewish-aviators.html:

Quote
In the Squadron publication on the Fokker D VII there is a photograph of an aircraft that appears to have a Star of David painted on it. THe caption writer speculates that the pilot might have been Jewish. Does anyone know of any Jewish pilots in any of the Air Services? There were quite a number of Jewish World War I veterans in my part of Philadelphia when I was a boy, but the only aviator I knew was a Catholic. He was the grandfather of a friend of mine. He was an observer in an RE-8 for the British. (By the way, the guys other grandfather was an infantryman for the Germans.)
Tom McConnell

Quote
The names of ca 200 Jewish aviators in the German Air Force are known until now. I was once misinterpreting Lt. Auer  (Jasta 40s) as a Jew because he had a Star of David on his aircraft. He is one candidate for your photograph. I was also reading he was carrying the star only as a kind of cruel joke against the Jewish pilot Rosenstein in his squadron but I did never see prove for that until now.

Quote
And Ltn.d.R. Adolf Auer, the pilot of Jasta 40s, with the Star of David marking - POW on 28Oct18, became a General in WWII. Obviously not of the Jewish faith.



I can't find that Adolf Auer was indeed a Jew, is it possible that it was indeed some kind of a joke, putting a swastika david star (modified) on his plane? remember, it's WWI and NOT WWII

Quote
Airmen of Jewish origin who flew during World War I

NAME                       VICTORIES     UNITS

Frankl, Wilhelm               20         FA40, Jasta 4, Kek Vaux
Nathanael, Edmund             15         FFA 42, Jasta 5, 22
Rosenstein, Wilhelm            9         AOK 3, FA 19, Jasta 9, 27, 40, Kest 1b

Wolff, Jacob                   4  +1 U   Jasta 17
Schmidt, Hermann               2  +1 F   Jasta 13
Beckhardt, Fritz               1  +1 U   JG 3, Jasta 26, Kest 2
Abt, Rudolf                    1         Jasta 69
Ledermann, Jakob               1         Jasta 13


Abrahamson
Adler, Ernst
Amrhein
Aronheim
Back, Hermann
Ballin, Leopold
Bär, Albert
Benario
Berger, Karl
Berliner, H. R.
Berneis, Benno                           Jasta 9
Bett
Bettsak, Heinz
Bielschowsky, Hans
Bloch, Martin
Bloch, Otto Erich
Block, Hans
Blumenthal, Ewald
Cassel
Chasanowicz, Arthur
Cohn, Max
Cohn, Rudolf
Elias, Hermann
Elias, Max
Eliel, Erich
Engel, Rudolf
Falk, Alfred
Friedländer, Hans
Fromm, Karl
Fromm, Walter
Gerstle, Fritz
Goldmann, Paul
Gruner
Grünfeld, Alfred
Guthmann, Berthold
Haas, Fritz
Hansdorf
Hauk, Walter
Hecht, Georg
Heilbrunn, Wilhelm
Heimann, Siegfried
Hemmerdinger
Hirsch, Edgar
Hirschfeld, Wilhelm
Holzinger, Max
Hopp
Jacobowitz, Martin
Jaffé, Hermann
Jessel, Bertold
Jonas, Hermann
Kann, Alfred
Kaplan, Hugo
Kohnert
Königsberger, Kurt
Koppel, Fritz
Krämer, Bertold
Künstler, Paul
Lämmle, Kurt
Langstadt, Wilhelm
Leopold
Lessing
Levi
Lewy
Lewy, Erich
Lichtenstein, Jakob
Liebmann, E.
Lilienthal, Arnold                       FAA 237, Jasta 17
Lippmann, Alexander
Lippmann, Alwin
Lissauer
Lustig, Hans
Macholl, Artur
Marx, Adolf
Mayer
Mecklenburg, Fritz
Meyer
Michelbacher
von Mises
Moser
Müller, Ernst
Neuberg
Neufeld, Alfred
Neumann, Adolf
Neumann, Kurt
Neumann, Otto
Neumann, Richard
Nossek, Siegfried
Odenheimer, Alfred
Offenbacher, Bruno
Oswald, Erich
Öttinger, Benno
Pappenheimer, Max
Perlhöfter
Pinczower, Simon
Regensburger, Alfred
Rosenbaum, Edgar
Rosenberger
Rosin
Rosin, Franz
Rothschild, Hans
Rüdenberg, Friedrich                     Jasta 10
Rumpler
Rund
Samuel, Gustav
Schäffer, Ernst
Scheuer, Richard
Scheyersen, Albert
Schiller, Heinrich
Seligmann, Oskar
Seligsohn
Sommerfeld, Hermann
Spiegel, Paul
Stadthagen, Paul
Steinitz, Ernst
Strauss, Max
Sultan, Martin
Unger
Warschauer
Wechsler
Weil, Ernst
Weil, Kurt A.
Wertheim, Paul
Wetzlar, Alex
Witkowski, Siegfried
Wolff, Wilhelm
Zürndörfer, Josef

Logged
Alan65
The Postcard man
Captain
***

Offline Offline

United States

Location: Seattle
Posts: 766




View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: 11 April 2010, 17:02:08 »
ReplyReply

Thanks, Monty and Koen!  I'll look into this further.  I found a blog where a guy models WWI planes and at least one of his has a stylized Star of David on it.  The German cross looks amateur, too, and I actually thought it was Norwegian flag at first.
(I wonder if Jewish pilots wanted to be identified in case of death in the air?)

Oh, and Koen, note that the swastika was a good luck symbol until the nazis appropriated it; many things--planes, postcards, fireplaces--had swastikas on them in the first third of the 20th century.

Logged
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2273




View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: 11 April 2010, 17:16:02 »
ReplyReply

Sorry, could not chime in before, but it´s a Fokker 7 alright.

Where does anyone of you see a Swastika? Looked three times now and cannot find any...?

Rattler
Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
Alan65
The Postcard man
Captain
***

Offline Offline

United States

Location: Seattle
Posts: 766




View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: 11 April 2010, 17:47:37 »
ReplyReply

no swastika in this picture; there are discussions of them wrt this topic in the forum Koen linked to (btw, the link isn't 'good' but you can get to the homepage from it; now that I've registered, maybe the linke would fully work.)
Logged
Koen
Lieutenant Colonel
****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4430




View Profile
« Reply #6 on: 11 April 2010, 17:52:23 »
ReplyReply

Thanks, Monty and Koen!  I'll look into this further.  I found a blog where a guy models WWI planes and at least one of his has a stylized Star of David on it.  The German cross looks amateur, too, and I actually thought it was Norwegian flag at first.
(I wonder if Jewish pilots wanted to be identified in case of death in the air?)

Oh, and Koen, note that the swastika was a good luck symbol until the nazis appropriated it; many things--planes, postcards, fireplaces--had swastikas on them in the first third of the 20th century.


I have read some info about the Swastika before so I was aware....  Knipoog
Logged
MontyB
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1013




View Profile
« Reply #7 on: 12 April 2010, 02:25:26 »
ReplyReply

Thanks, Monty and Koen!  I'll look into this further.  I found a blog where a guy models WWI planes and at least one of his has a stylized Star of David on it.  The German cross looks amateur, too, and I actually thought it was Norwegian flag at first.
(I wonder if Jewish pilots wanted to be identified in case of death in the air?)

Oh, and Koen, note that the swastika was a good luck symbol until the nazis appropriated it; many things--planes, postcards, fireplaces--had swastikas on them in the first third of the 20th century.





Something to remember here is that at the time what you refer to as the "Star of David" was simply regarded by many as a six pointed star and was not heavily associated with Judaism.
A large number of people carried the emblem as a keep sake and not all were Jewish, for example the Moroccan flag carried a 6 pointed star until 1915 when it was changed, Ltn. Ludwig Hanstein of Jasta 35b also had a six pointed star on his fuselage but he flew an Albatross D.V. not a Fokker, you also find the six-pointed star on a lot of old swords as it was an armourer's symbol representing strength.

Edit**
Just to back a point I made earlier...

Why is there a six-pointed star like the Star of David on the U.S. sword blades?

First, the star is not a Star of David because it is geometrically different. The Star of David does not consist of two triangles combined together, but rather two, separate, interlocking triangles (which, in recent history, and often when displayed in one-color designs, usually does appear to be two triangles combined together).

We cannot absolutely confirm the history of the star; however, we do know that the blade specifications for both the U.S. and British military swords require the six-pointed star with the word "Proved" etched on the blade.

As best we can tell, the specification for the six-pointed star is historical in nature and was likely used to signify that the blade was manufactured using the Damascus steel method. Today, there is no requirement for Damascus steel blades; however, the six-pointed "Proved" star is required in the etch to signify that the blade meets the current military specifications. Even this use has lost its meaning, however, since replica swords intended only for wall-mounting incorrectly bear the symbol.

Damascus steel was perfected by the Persians and was reportedly encountered by Alexander the Great three centuries before Christ. The Persians used the six-pointed star during these non-modern times. The Persian blade-making process of folding the steel many times - even hundreds of times - to layer the steel resulted in extremely tough blades with both strength and resilience. The term "Damascus steel" came from western traders first encountering the steel in Damascus.

Today, U.S. military blades are purely ornamental and ceremonial in nature. The modern-day swords and sabers are certainly not made with Damascus steel blades and are not made to withstand blade-to-blade contact. Damascus steel blades today would cost tens of thousands of dollars to forge, and we know of no one who offers Damascus steel blades.

http://www.militarysabers.com/military-sword-information/faq-six-point-star.html

I would also point out that this symbol was used by European sword makers as well so there is a very good chance that the pilot had it on his aircraft for its "Excellence" meaning rather than a Jewish meaning.
« Last Edit: 13 April 2010, 02:07:32 by MontyB » Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Koen
Lieutenant Colonel
****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4430




View Profile
« Reply #8 on: 13 April 2010, 16:32:32 »
ReplyReply

interesting stuff  salute
Logged
Alan65
The Postcard man
Captain
***

Offline Offline

United States

Location: Seattle
Posts: 766




View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: 14 April 2010, 01:07:46 »
ReplyReply

Good points, Monty.

I'd add--after reading the wikipedia entry for "Star of David"--that it's also known as Shield of David and was used to symbolize defense and/or strength.

I'm not convinced that this plane was flown by a Jewish pilot.  There are plenty of examples of this 6-pointed star on WWI planes, many in other stylized versions.  In a black-and-white photo it does strike one as a Star of David, however.
Logged
the_13th_redneck
Sergeant Major
**

Offline Offline

Korea, Republic of

Location: on someone else's beach
Posts: 264




View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: 14 April 2010, 02:57:49 »
ReplyReply

Interesting stuff indeed!
Logged

MontyB
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1013




View Profile
« Reply #11 on: 14 April 2010, 03:59:12 »
ReplyReply

Good points, Monty.

I'd add--after reading the wikipedia entry for "Star of David"--that it's also known as Shield of David and was used to symbolize defense and/or strength.

I'm not convinced that this plane was flown by a Jewish pilot.  There are plenty of examples of this 6-pointed star on WWI planes, many in other stylized versions.  In a black-and-white photo it does strike one as a Star of David, however.



I am pretty much convinced that it is Ltn. Adolf Auer from Jasta 40's aircraft or a replica of it and given his WW2 history I think it is unlikely he was Jewish.
Here is the information gathered on the aircraft in 1918...
Fokker D.VII - Ltn Adolf Auer Jasta 40 Overall Black_ white star of David and striped tail - C&C(INT) 21/4:202 - Captured 28 Oct 1918

http://www.crossandcockade.com/pdf/AIRCRAFT_PHOTOS.pdf

Scroll down to page 28.
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Alan65
The Postcard man
Captain
***

Offline Offline

United States

Location: Seattle
Posts: 766




View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: 14 April 2010, 05:09:22 »
ReplyReply

Oh, if only my photo had the tail in the shot!

the site Koen links to has a page where all of the incarnations of nationality distinctions are shown; this version in my photo of the German cross matches what they say was the version starting in May '18; does this jibe with what you know, Monty?

Interesting, too, that Monty's link calls this "star of David" markings on Auer's plane.

Thanks Koen and all for making this a site where I can get my questions answered!
Logged
MontyB
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1013




View Profile
« Reply #13 on: 14 April 2010, 07:16:57 »
ReplyReply

Oh, if only my photo had the tail in the shot!

the site Koen links to has a page where all of the incarnations of nationality distinctions are shown; this version in my photo of the German cross matches what they say was the version starting in May '18; does this jibe with what you know, Monty?

Interesting, too, that Monty's link calls this "star of David" markings on Auer's plane.

Thanks Koen and all for making this a site where I can get my questions answered!


I can't see why it wouldn't jibe as the report indicates that Auer's plane was captured intact in late October 1918, my opinion is that it is an original aircraft in museum storage after the war hence the presence of various allied aircraft as well.
« Last Edit: 14 April 2010, 07:42:26 by MontyB » Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
B.D. Hecht
Private


Offline Offline

United States

Posts: 3


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: 20 April 2011, 21:35:03 »
ReplyReply

This plane belongs to Ltn. Adolf Auer from Jasta 40. Adolf Auer was NOT Jewish! The Jewish Star was to annoy Herman Goering. Herman had made crude remarks to a jewish pilot named Willi Rosenstein.  Rosenstein transfered to Jasta 40. It was proven that Rosenstein had saved Hermans butt quite afew times. Adolf Auer attempt at humor was to "Piss off" Herman, not Willi Rosenstein.  Adolf Auer said he would rather be saved by a jewish pilot then die in a plane crash.  This picture was showned to me by my Great Grandfather, Vzfw Georg (Whitey) Hecht in 1973. My Grandfather was in Jasta 10 (Shot down in  Dec 27th 1917.  POW of the English)
  My Grand Mother Mary Hecht (nee Marx) confirmed the story told to her by her dad Adolf Marx also a Germay jewish WW-1 Pilot.
Funny twist to all this was, most of my family fought in WW-2 on the American side in B-17's...
Most of the Family members died in Florida if you need to check, look at the  (social security death index)  web-page. (Georg Hecht never aplied for social security he sneeked into the USA via Canada)

Logged
MontyB
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1013




View Profile
« Reply #15 on: 20 April 2011, 23:46:26 »
ReplyReply

This plane belongs to Ltn. Adolf Auer from Jasta 40. Adolf Auer was NOT Jewish! The Jewish Star was to annoy Herman Goering. Herman had made crude remarks to a jewish pilot named Willi Rosenstein.  Rosenstein transfered to Jasta 40. It was proven that Rosenstein had saved Hermans butt quite afew times. Adolf Auer attempt at humor was to "Piss off" Herman, not Willi Rosenstein.  Adolf Auer said he would rather be saved by a jewish pilot then die in a plane crash.  This picture was showned to me by my Great Grandfather, Vzfw Georg (Whitey) Hecht in 1973. My Grandfather was in Jasta 10 (Shot down in  Dec 27th 1917.  POW of the English)
  My Grand Mother Mary Hecht (nee Marx) confirmed the story told to her by her dad Adolf Marx also a Germay jewish WW-1 Pilot.
Funny twist to all this was, most of my family fought in WW-2 on the American side in B-17's...
Most of the Family members died in Florida if you need to check, look at the  (social security death index)  web-page. (Georg Hecht never aplied for social security he sneeked into the USA via Canada)




Certainly a lot in that story given that apparently Willi Rosenstein left Jasta 27 over comments made by Goering.
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2273




View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: 21 April 2011, 04:49:39 »
ReplyReply

Yes, interesting tidbits. Had not known that Göring had been anti jewish in WWI already.

Rattler
Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
Alan65
The Postcard man
Captain
***

Offline Offline

United States

Location: Seattle
Posts: 766




View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: 21 April 2011, 04:54:26 »
ReplyReply

Thank you for the information, B.D.!
When you say
This picture was showned to me by my Great Grandfather, Vzfw Georg (Whitey) Hecht in 1973.

, do you mean a picture of your great-grandfather's plane was shown to you, or this picture of the plane was shown to you?
Logged
MontyB
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1013




View Profile
« Reply #18 on: 21 April 2011, 05:41:05 »
ReplyReply

I read it as that he had been shown that particular picture by his Great Grandfather.

I don't doubt his explanation at all but I am still confused as to where the aircraft was when that particular photo was taken as the presence of other aircraft (of different nations) seems rather odd, all I can think of is some sort of post war storage facility.
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
B.D. Hecht
Private


Offline Offline

United States

Posts: 3


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: 23 April 2011, 16:40:31 »
ReplyReply

To answer both of you.
1#- This is a hanger in France, where their are some War planes left over from WW-1.
Almost all of the German war machines (Airplanes, Tanks, etc.)were destroyed as part of an agreement at the end of the World War 1. 
There was a backlash by Jewish pilots NOT to destroy Adolf Auer's plane because the Star Of David was on it. The Allies agreed NOT to detroy the plane if the guns were removed.
This picture was taken just after the war.
Adolf Auer's plane is at Le Bourget Airport in Paris. There is a revovling display of planes at the Museum.
     This exact pic was NOT shown to me, BUT I have 20 some pictures of this plane and I have AMAZING photo's of German Jewish pilots at a Passover Seder in 1916. (Pics taken by Whitey)
I didn't know there was an interest in this stuff.
Here's my problem, after Whitey (Georg Hecht) died, my grandmom put these pics in her garage. The pics are clumped together in a mass. When I tried to pull them apart I torn some of the pics. If ANYBODY can tell me how to take these apart without any more damage. I will send copies of these shots to you & Wikipedia.
Oh and Please Call Me Brad, not B.D. 


 
Logged
Pages:  [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Unique Hits: 7357115 | Sitemap
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.15 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!


Google visited last this page Yesterday at 17:32:51