Wargaming => Scenarios: Designing - Research & discussions => Topic started by: FACman on 2 November 2009, 11:41:45



Title: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: FACman on 2 November 2009, 11:41:45
This being my first post in this section of W&T (that I have initiated), I ask your indulgence, should you find it somewhat confusing and disjointed.

I have long been involved in war-gaming, from my youth when I designed an ACW game for my brothers and I to play, to the present, when I shall attempt to break new ground (for me at least) using the CM platform. Much of my experience has been in the realm of miniatures war-gaming, with and without GMs (Game Masters, sometimes called gods). With the advent of the CM platform, I found many of the functions formerly performed by GMs handled much more efficiently and realistically by the CM game engine. However, there are still some aspects of war-gaming MIA in CM, that only a GM can fulfill due to the limitations inherent in CM. With my current project, of which I shall give you a teaser taste in this first post, in the hopes to find a couple of guinea pigs (I mean volunteers), to playtest my concept. While it is entirely possible that I am delusional in my concepts, without testing the waters, we shall never know...

To wet your appetite while I am gone this week, I leave you a rough version of the map upon which this experiment shall be carried out.  This is the original version of the map for this scenario (which was originally to be an operation). It has been reviewed by a member of this site, who happens to live in the vicinity, for its general adherence to the terrain in question. I am pleased to say that he recognized the location and says the map will do nicely, a big thanks to Huzaar for his input. I am currently in the last stages of redoing the map to meet the requirements for this upcoming experiment.


(http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww278/sgtfaust/th_TheFirst48map.jpg) (http://s727.photobucket.com/albums/ww278/sgtfaust/?action=view&current=TheFirst48map.jpg)

The attached file is of the in progress map, which can be viewed in detail on the scenario editor. Remember its incomplete.



Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: stoffel on 2 November 2009, 12:13:08
Dont let us wait so long.....
If you need help, let me know!
I have been thinking of playing CM with two teams in the old  Tacops cpx style.
Basically teams choose a commander and divide tasks.
they et an assignment and have to formulate a plan.
They send in orders for a longer period i.e 5 minutes.
Than the GM will start up the game and plays the turns.
Another plus option is that the umpire can play the game using Frankos rules, like watching the game not in god mode from above but from groundlevel.
I have done some experiments and noticed that the AI is very capable of handling units, it gave interesting results.
teams get updates in the form of messages, recon radio messages and maps(screenshots)


Henk


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: FACman on 2 November 2009, 13:45:31
Yes Henk, many good ideas to play around with. This version will be for only two players, who shall play it out themselves (copying turns to me) I shall GM to handle the chrome (recon reports and the like). When I return from this weeks excursion I shall post some info needs that I have regarding the scenario and your help will be gratefully accepted and appreciated. In fact I was counting on help from the site members to make this a truly great experience. If the first go around works well enough, I shall endeavor to provide the GM service to other members who might wish to try this out.


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: stoffel on 2 November 2009, 14:58:39
Well, its allways good to stick our heads together :)
Lets see what comes out of the collision  hdbng ;)


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: Mad Russian on 3 November 2009, 06:03:41
I've attempted to push CM way out beyond the boundaries. With CMC on a slow road to death I got several gamers together to do a CMC style of campaign on our own.

We got the maps together. 4 or 5 to a side. An overall commander and then we went to war.

The issue with this was/is that like in actual combat you don't want a stand up fair fight may the best man win. You end up with extremely one sided fights with one side or the other retreating as quickly as possible to keep casualties to a minimum.

Now of course there comes a time when combat must take place or the attacked simply wins by default. These battles tended to get big and there were few of them. Not worth waiting out 12 or more blowouts to get a couple of battles. Plus if you have 4 or 5 to a side and only 2 real battles the gamers don't get much of a chance at getting into heavy combat.

So, that concept didn't work out as planned. But that's how you find out. You try it and see. Good luck with your project, maybe it will turn out better than my last one.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: stoffel on 3 November 2009, 13:39:16
There is another option Steve :)
Try this one: www.onionwars.net (http://www.onionwars.net)

Henk


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: FACman on 7 November 2009, 04:43:30
The First 48 Hours will be a battle recreating the first 48 hours after  the 2/508th lands in Normandy and the 91st LuffteLande's attempt to destroy them. The battle will be 48 games long  (as after the first two days, contact with sister units on east side of Merderet was established and the tide was turned) with with each game representing 1 hour (60 turns fixed). At the end of each game, I shall make any adjustments to map as may be required, give appropriate intel and add any chrome I can come up with. There shall be no buffer between forces as the next game begins where the last left off. It is also possible that there may be no contact between units at the end of a game, this shall allow for increased resupply and reorganization.

I would advise anyone who is interested in playing this scenario, to refrain from reading or refreshing your understanding of the battle, as the fog of war is vital to setting the atmosphere and recreating the lack of intel that was the norm in these "First 48 Hours".


Yes, if all turns are played, it shall last 2880 turns, however, I suspect there is great potential for an early end, if you can perform better than your historical counterparts, after all, thats one of the reasons we play these games, is it not?

Thanks for the input already submitted as I am looking forward to making this a truly enjoyable 'epic' experience and all your input can only help.


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: FACman on 8 November 2009, 06:31:50
The map is finished.
The 2/508th is ready for insertion.
I have a cursory version of the 91st LL OOB, it lacks strength & disposition info. I found it on the 91st LL website, but it is in Deutsche. I shall attach it for those who can read Deutsche to let me know what it means.
Once the 91st LL OOB is done I shall be ready to start.


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: stoffel on 8 November 2009, 17:36:32
I will have a look :)


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: FACman on 9 November 2009, 03:17:14
I am in need of some information regarding units that were part of the 91st Luffte Lande Div during the first two days of  the allied landing in Normandy. I am specifically looking for strength and disposition of the 1057 Grenadier Regt  and any attached divisional assets in the vicinity of Piccaville.

Thanks


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: Mad Russian on 9 November 2009, 13:59:39
I am in need of some information regarding units that were part of the 91st Luffte Lande Div during the first two days of  the allied landing in Normandy. I am specifically looking for strength and disposition of the 1057 Grenadier Regt  and any attached divisional assets in the vicinity of Piccaville.

Thanks




Here is more information about the division for you. The information on the artillery should be especially good for what you're trying to do.

http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/gerob/gerob.html (http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/gerob/gerob.html)

It's listed as simply the 91st Infantry Division in the list. 8th unit from the top.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: stoffel on 9 November 2009, 14:19:47
Very good stuff Steve,

Any chance we can add it to the units sections here at WaT?


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: FACman on 9 November 2009, 18:18:47
Thanks Steve, that site is a big help. I went hunting to see if I could find his book, to no avail. I shall conduct a much more thorough  search when I finish re-gigging my computer.


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: Mad Russian on 10 November 2009, 05:51:48
Here are the drop locations for the 82nd AB. Click on the map and it will enlarge.

http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/maps/historical/overlord%20maps/MapIX-big-82%20abn%20drop.jpg (http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/maps/historical/overlord%20maps/MapIX-big-82%20abn%20drop.jpg)

Initial Drop dispositions:

http://ibiblio.net/hyperwar/////USA/USA-A-Utah/maps/USA-A-Utah-7.jpg (http://ibiblio.net/hyperwar/////USA/USA-A-Utah/maps/USA-A-Utah-7.jpg)




End of the day dispositions:

http://ibiblio.net/hyperwar/////USA/USA-A-Utah/maps/USA-A-Utah-9.jpg (http://ibiblio.net/hyperwar/////USA/USA-A-Utah/maps/USA-A-Utah-9.jpg)



There were some really good maps of Normandy years ago. Of which I have copies, but I thought they were still on the internet. Can't find them yet. They show detailed dispositions of German deployments. The same maps the Allies had before the landings. They are extremely detailed. I'll keep looking for those as well.

Also, you should check out "Night Drop" by S.L.A. Marshal. It is all about the airborne assault on France.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: FACman on 10 November 2009, 13:50:44
Thanks again Steve, I had found those drop maps a long time ago, they are in fact what inspired me to develop this scenario. 'Good hunting' for the German deployment maps, as they are my most serious weakness at the moment. As for "Night Drop" I also bought that some time ago (E-Bay steal) and I agree with your conclusion, very good intel between those covers.

ays,

J


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: Mad Russian on 11 November 2009, 06:18:21
More for your viewing pleasure.

http://www.history.army.mil/BOOKS/WWII/utah/maps/Map10.jpg (http://www.history.army.mil/BOOKS/WWII/utah/maps/Map10.jpg)

and then there were dozens.....

http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropus/en_page.php?page=maps (http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropus/en_page.php?page=maps)


508th Parachute Infantry Rgt : Colonel Roy E. Lindquist
Hq & Hq Co : Captain Robert Abraham
1/508th : Lt Col. Herbert Batcheller (KIA 6 June)         
Major Shields Warren
Hq Co : Captain Gerard A. Ruddy (KIA 6 June)
A Co : Captain Jonathan E. Adams
B Co : Captain Royal R. Taylor
C Co :Captain Walter Silvers

2/508th : Lt Col. Thomas J.B. Shanley
Hq Co : Captain Chester E. Graham
D Co : 1st/Lt. Norman McVicar
E Co : Captain Eugene Hetland
F Co : Captain Francis E. Flanders (KIA 7 June)

3/508th : Lt Col. Louis G. Mendez
Hq Co : 1st/Lt. Malcolm D. Brannen
G Co : Captain Frank J. Novak
H Co : Captain Hal M. Creary (KIA 6 June)
I Co : 1st/Lt. John J. Daly (KIA 4 July)

Source: http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropus/en_page.php?page=82 (http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropus/en_page.php?page=82)

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: FACman on 14 November 2009, 18:56:44
I must be walking in your footsteps Steve, as thats where I first found the drop maps that inspired me. Well now I know what your footprints look like. After skimming the book, I may have to redo my map, to the newer level of accuracy that book allows me to replicate. OY VAY!

I also got my copy of the Osprey Normandy (2) book and saw the WN5 map. Was that your starting point for the HSG W5 landing scenario I like so much?

I've almost finished reading 'Night Drop' and have learned that I must develop a system for replicating the initial German response (slow) to the Airborne landings, as well as a system to reflect the allied difficulties with rallying after the drop. I've got a rough idea of how to handle it, very similar to what I would do in a miniatures version, by restricting movement until activation is triggered..


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: stoffel on 15 November 2009, 11:34:19
A simple way to achieve this is to use the reinforcements slots.
Also after you finish the map, make the fastest defending unit go diagonally across it,or along a route leading to placed us units.
This will result in an x number of turns before a German unit can reach that certain point.
Place US forces in positions you want them and count the turns the Germans need to get there.
For example, US squad landing east in the map, if it takes a German unit to reach that area in 20 turns you can  have the US squad enter there at turn 19..
You have as much as 30 slots ;)
For US units early on the map you can restrict movement by setting them up panicked or pinned.

Henk


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: FACman on 15 November 2009, 12:37:27
Thanks for the input Henk, I shall remember that technique as the game goes on as I can foresee using it in the later stages. My problem in this case is that the Germans actually didn't do much until daybreak. [Ex: 3 Co. Inf, 1 Btty of Arty and several tanks in Picuaville didn't move out until daybreak.] I want to give the players the opportunity to change the outcome rather than just repeat history. There is a fine balance to achieve that in this scenario since if the Germans are released to quickly they will just slaughter the Paras before they rally into coherent groups.[no fun there] If they have no opportunity to be released, then there will be no chance to change history, and the scenario becomes an exercise in boredom. So I must thread the eye of a needle here with the idea to keep both player in it. The start is going to be slow, that is the nature of this particular battle. I wouldn't recommend  this to any players that don't like games that don't come to action quickly. This shall be a battle of developement, that is since neither side knows much about the others location & disposition, a rush to contact could prove fatal for he who does not take care.


Activation rules for first hour of Landing (may be extended to 2nd hour with modification)
My plan is to freeze all Germans until contact with Paras occurs. The Germans shall have a few units (probably half squads or anti tank teams) on patrol, who upon making contact, must return to HQ and report said contact (as commo was seriously compromised by the Resistance before the drop and by the Paras after). The Germans would then be released to move out if they wish.

I shall handle the Paras in a similar way. Any Para groups without a leader, may only move to the nearest cover, where they shall remain until such time as a leader arrives (within Command Radius) or they sight or contact German troops. This will force the Paras to send out teams to gather forces, which is what happened in RL.

These rules are subject to change once I see them in action, that is it looks like it will work on paper, now I must see if if it will work IN GAME.


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: stoffel on 15 November 2009, 16:31:22
You can achieve that.
Make a rather big map say 4 x 4, or a very small one.
Give both sides an area and make sure they cant get on eachothers side, a ravine with steap slopes, burning forest whatever.
If the us player must do recon than give him one or two squads on the other side.
In the mean time both forces can reach their assigned points on the overall battle map, without having them slaugther eachother.
Another way is give explicite orders, monitoring the files, every 5th or 10th and give a penalty for not following the orders :)


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: FACman on 15 November 2009, 19:28:16
I have already made the map, and it is huge, see my first post this thread for a proto of the final map. This is an historical scenario, starting within minutes of the Para landings. They will be dispersed to their actual landing spots (well as close as CM terrain allows with 20m hexes/squares) Their primary goal in the first hour will be to rally before the Germans move on them. Everything I have read so far indicates the Germans were slow to react, which gave the Paras a chance. The remainder of the scenario will be the Germans trying to crush the Paras before the bridgehead at La Fiere & Chef du Pont can be achieved and a link-up with the 2/508th. Historically, they held out for two days before the link occured, by allowing the Germans to be a bit more aggressive at the start, I expect there shall be a chance for them to be wiped out before the link-up. T least that's how it looks on paper.


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: Mad Russian on 19 November 2009, 05:55:53
A simple way to achieve this is to use the reinforcements slots.
Also after you finish the map, make the fastest defending unit go diagonally across it,or along a route leading to placed us units.
This will result in an x number of turns before a German unit can reach that certain point.
Place US forces in positions you want them and count the turns the Germans need to get there.
For example, US squad landing east in the map, if it takes a German unit to reach that area in 20 turns you can  have the US squad enter there at turn 19..
You have as much as 30 slots ;)


Only in a battle scenario not an operation.

Quote
For US units early on the map you can restrict movement by setting them up panicked or pinned.

Henk


Or in a tired or exhausted state. Where they will move but have to move slowly or they stop on you. Where you wait as long as you think you can afford to before starting to move them. In a morale state, pinned/cautious, etc...they won't move at all until they rally.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: FACman on 20 November 2009, 05:32:29
I have considered various states to immobilize the Paras and here are some conclusions I have come up with.
Since this shall be a battle and not a operation (scale is way to small in time and troops) rein will be a factor.
Tired and exhausted dont really fit as from my reading once they exited the carriers, the adrenaline was pumping for the first couple of hours for most of the troops. During the 2nd night battles as well as the 2nd days battles, I will implement Tired and exhausted based on any particular units actions the previous day.
I will have to experiment with panicked and pinned as they may suit well and give a reason to send out gathering patrols just to bring them in, as was done extensively through the battle..

good ideas keep em coming as Im learning with each post.

Thanks!


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: Mad Russian on 20 November 2009, 06:33:25
I have considered various states to immobilize the Paras and here are some conclusions I have come up with.
Since this shall be a battle and not a operation (scale is way to small in time and troops) rein will be a factor.
Tired and exhausted dont really fit as from my reading once they exited the carriers, the adrenaline was pumping for the first couple of hours for most of the troops. During the 2nd night battles as well as the 2nd days battles, I will implement Tired and exhausted based on any particular units actions the previous day.
I will have to experiment with panicked and pinned as they may suit well and give a reason to send out gathering patrols just to bring them in, as was done extensively through the battle..

good ideas keep em coming as Im learning with each post.

Thanks!


Tired and exhausted don't fit the profile for the action. It fits the profile for the game.

If you make them tired or exhausted they will move just not as easily. And exhausted troops might not move at all. Sooo, as in real life you determine when you want to start them towards the objective and how out of sorts you want them when they get there.

If you use a morale state they will not move at all until they are rallied all the way back to normal. They will fire and defend themselves but, IMO, that's of little use to you where the paratroopers are on the attack.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: Mad Russian on 20 November 2009, 06:53:18
Okay, after looking at all the sources I have including the West Point Atlas of American Wars, I have come to the conclusion that the most detailed OOB and starting locations I can come up with are actually in a wargame.

Have you ever seen The Longest Day by Avalon Hill?

It has a very detailed Order of Battle for D-Day and beyond. It has the starting locations for all German units printed right on the map.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: FACman on 20 November 2009, 12:18:30
Yes indeed I am familiar with the game though it is not in my collection. I shall run over to ebay and see if I can find a copy. Barring that, I have a very good source in the industry, if I cant find he he probably can.

Thanks MR!


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: Mad Russian on 20 November 2009, 15:06:41
I have a copy in the garage. I could just scan the part of the map you need if it comes to that.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: FACman on 20 November 2009, 17:36:03
That may be the way to go, because there's only one copy on ebay and Im not gonna pay that much to look at the map.


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: Gomez on 25 January 2011, 20:07:37
Gonna have to necro this and wonder what happened to it?


Title: Re: The First 48...an experiment in expanding CM, beyond its boundaries.
Post by: stoffel on 21 February 2011, 20:36:44
Jody,

What are your plans with this operation, are you still working on it?
Henk