18 August 2019, 03:36:35 *

Login with username, password and session length
Welcome to War and Tactics!    War and Tactics Forum is currently undergoing some modifications that might disable features you are used to. This is unabvoidable as we have to update the forum engine to a new structure that is incompatible with many of the features we had used so far. The good news: WaT will be more secure and stable, and most of the features we uninstalled will be a natural part of the new structure anyway. For the rest we will be looking for solutions. (APR 23, 2018)
   
  Home   Forum   Help ! Forum Rules ! Search Calendar Donations Login Register Chat  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Share this topic on Del.icio.usShare this topic on DiggShare this topic on FacebookShare this topic on GoogleShare this topic on MySpaceShare this topic on RedditShare this topic on StumbleUponShare this topic on TechnoratiShare this topic on TwitterShare this topic on Yahoo
Author Topic: Editor: Kursk - CMBB  (Read 6706 times)
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« on: 30 September 2009, 13:36:38 »
ReplyReply

Now we are testing the battle 12SS maxi I want to start slowly building a new Combat Mission battle but with MUCHOS tanks and infantry!

Therefore I feel like creating a battle situated in the Kursk clash.

Kursk was so big (LINK) we can only (re)create a small part of it.

What I would like to do is

on German side: OFFENSIVE
tank batallions with Tigers, Panthers and StuG's
infantry with artillery

on Russian side: DEFENSIVE with counterattacks
trenchlines with pillboxes
infantry with artillery
reinforcements will be tanks with infantry

The Battle Of Kursk


I would like to create a massive force but with the right %'s....meaning if they had 2 Panther companies for each Tiger company I would like it in the battle also 2 V's for 1 VI's etc.

All help is appreciated

(http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/world-war-ii/help-kursk-creating-a-battle/)
Logged
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #1 on: 30 September 2009, 13:50:39 »
ReplyReply

this could be a start

Quote
Army Group South (Erich von Manstein)

4th Panzer Army (Hermann Hoth)
LII Corps (E. Ott)
57th Infantry Division
255th Infantry Division
332nd Infantry Division
XLVIII Panzer Corps (O. von Knobelsdorff)
3rd Panzer Division
11th Panzer Division
Panzergrenadier Division Grossdeutschland
167th Infantry Division
II SS Panzer Corps (P. Hausser)
1st SS Panzergrenadier Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler
2nd SS Panzergrenadier Division Das Reich
3rd SS Panzergrenadier Division Totenkopf

Army Group Kempf (W. Kempf)
III Panzer Corps (H. Breith)
6th Panzer Division
7th Panzer Division
19th Panzer Division
168th Infantry Division
Raus' Corps (E. Raus)
106th Infantry Division
320th Infantry Division
XLII Corps (F. Mattenklott)
39th Infantry Division
161st Infantry Division
282nd Infantry Division

Army Group Reserve
XXIV Panzer Corps (W. Nehring)
5th SS Panzergrenadier Division Wiking
17th Panzer Division


_____________________________________________

Quote
FOURTH PANZER ARMY (PzAOK 4):

LII (52) Armeekorps:

  57 Inf.Div.

  255 Inf.Div.

  332 Inf.Div.

XXXXVIII (48) Panzerkorps:

  10 Pz.Bde. [Stab 37 PzRgt/17 PzDiv]:

    51 Pz.Abt. (Panther)

    52 Pz.Abt. (Panther)

  911 StuG.Abt.

  616 H-Flak-Btl.

  3 Pz.Div.

  11 Pz.Div.

  167 Inf.Div. (2/3)

  “G.D.” Pz.GR.Div.

II (02) Panzerkorps-SS:

  1 SS-Pz.GR.Div. “LAH”

  2 SS-Pz.GR.Div. “Das Reich”

  3 SS-Pz.GR.Div. “Tot.”

  167 Inf.Div. (1/3)

ARMEE-ABT. “KEMPF”:

XXXXII (42) Armeekorps:

  560 s.PzJag.Abt.

  663 H-s.PzJab.Abt. (ex: H-PzJag.Abt.”C”)

  77 (Lw) Flak-Regt.

  161 Inf.Div.

  282 Inf.Div.

  39 Inf.Div.

Gen.Kdo.z.b.V.”Raus” [XI (11) Armeekorps]:

  393 StuG.Bty.

  905 StuG.Abt.

  4 (Lw) Flak-Regt.

  7 (Lw) Flak-Regt.

  48 (Lw) Flak-Regt.

  320 Inf.Div.

  106 Inf.Div.

III (03) Panzerkorps:

  228 StuG.Abt.

  503 s.Pz.Abt. (Tiger)

  99 (Lw) Flak-Regt.

  153 (Lw) Flak-Regt.

  6 Pz.Div.

  7 Pz.Div.

  19 Pz.Div.

  168 Inf.Div.

FIRST PANZER ARMY (PzAOK 1):

AOK Reserves:

  H-PzJag.Abt.”B”

  XXIV (24) Panzerkorps:

    23 Pz.Div.

    17 Pz.Div.

    5 SS-PzGR.Div. “Wiking”

XXX (30) Armeekorps:

  62 Inf.Div.

  38 Inf.Div.

  387 Inf.Div.

XXXX (40) Panzerkorps:

  333 Inf.Div.

  46 Inf.Div.

  257 Inf.Div.

LVII (57) Panzerkorps:

  15 Inf.Div.

  198 Inf.Div.

  328 Inf.Div.

SIXTH ARMY (AOK 6):

AOK Reserves:

  209 StuG.Abt.

  243 StuG.Abt.

  210 StuG.Abt.

  H-PzJag.Abt.”A”

  16 PzGR.Div. (most)

XXIX (29) Armeekorps:

  Grp.”Recknagel” [Stab 111 Inf.Div.]:

    16 PzGR.Div. (part) + KGrp.”Kdt.Taganrog” + 111 Inf.Div.

  15 Luft.Fld.Div.

  17 Inf.Div.

  336 Inf.Div.

XVII (17) Armeekorps:

  294 Inf.Div.

  306 Inf.Div.

  302 Inf.Div.

Group “Mieth” (Stab IV (04) Armeekorps):

  - 304 Inf.Div.

  - 3 Geb.Div.

  - 335 Inf.Div.

Logged
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #2 on: 30 September 2009, 14:16:08 »
ReplyReply

first idea is to use these 3 groups:

Quote
1st SS Panzergrenadier Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler(Theodor Wisch, SS-Brigadeführer und Generalmajor der Waffen-SS)

The spring rasputitsa halted offensive operations, giving the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler time to rest and refit. By early June 1943, the division had been fully refitted and now under the command of Brigadeführer, Theodor Wisch. Its armour strength was 12 Tiger Is, 72 Panzer IVs, 16 Panzer III and Panzer IIs, and 31 StuGs. In late June 1943, the formation of 1st SS Panzer Corps meant that Hausser's SS Panzer Corps was renamed 2nd SS Panzer Corps.

The 2nd SS Panzer Corps was moved north to Belgorod in preparation for the upcoming Summer offensive, Operation Citadel. The LSSAH, along with the Totenkopf and Das Reich, was to form the spearhead of Generaloberst Hoth's 4.Panzer-Armee, tasked with breaching the southern flank of the Kursk salient. Generalfeldmarschall Walter Model's 9.Armee was to breach the northern flank, and the two forces were to meet near the city of Kursk, thereby encircling a large Soviet force.

The 2nd SS Panzer Corps reached its assembly areas on 28 June and began preparing for the assault. The attack was set for 5 July, and on 4 July the 2nd SS Panzer Corps, as well as the XLVIII.Panzerkorps on its left and the III Panzer Corps on the right, began minor attacks to secure observation posts. Fighting lasted throughout the day, with the LSSAH Pionier-Bataillon seeing heavy action clearing out the entrenched Soviets.

The LSSAH panzers, advancing in Panzerkeils, soon ran into the Soviet Pakfronts. The elaborate system of Soviet defences slowed the attack, but unlike in Model's sector, the 4.Panzer-Armee, spearheaded by the SS Panzer Corps and the LSSAH, was not halted, and eventually broke through.

By 9 July, the SS Panzer Corps had advanced 30 miles (48 km) north, and were nearing the small town of Prokhorovka. The LSSAH again took the lead, by now its armour strength reduced to just 77 armoured vehicles. 2nd SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment, supported by several panzers, advanced straight up the road to Prokhorovka against heavy resistance. By midday, the grenadiers had cleared the Komsomolets State Farm and the began the attack on Hill 241.6, which they secured shortly after nightfall on 10 July.

On 11 July, the advance resumed. With the division capturing Oktiabr'skii State Farm and Hill 252.2 in heavy fighting against Soviet Paratroops of the 9th Guards Airborne Division. On 12 July, the Soviets threw the 5th Guards Tank Army into a counterattack near Prokhorovka. Two tank corps faced the LSSAH hitting the advancing Germans around Oktiabr'skii State Farm and Hill 252.2. In the ensuing fighting, the outnumbered Germans inflicted heavy casualties on the Soviets, knocking out many tanks. In the process, the LSSAH also suffered relatively light casualties, however the Soviet counterattack had stalled the German advance, and the division was forced to fall back to Oktiabr'skii. Fighting continued on the 13 July, but the focus of the Soviet attack had shifted to the Totenkopf, to the left of the LSSAH.

1. SS Panzergrenadier Division Leibstandarte 'Adolf Hitler'
under command of: SS Brigadeführer Wisch

1 SS Panzer Regiment
1 SS Panzer Grenadier-Regiment
2 SS Panzer Grenadier-Regiment
1 SS Panzer Artillerie-Regiment
1 SS Panzer-Reconnaissance-Bataillon
1 SS Panzer-Engineer-Bataillon
1 SS Flak-Bataillon

armor:
106 tanks
35 assault guns
__________________________________

SS Panzerregiment 1 from LSSAH
4 Pz II
3 Pz III (short 50)
10 Pz III (long 50)
67 Pz IV (long 75)
13 Pz VI
9 Panzer Befehlspanzer
_________________________________

I.Pz.Jager Abt./1.SSLAH was allocated 4 Marder III Ausf M ( Sd Kfz 138 ) in June 1943
As for Stugs, they had a mixture of Stug III F-8's and Stug III G (early)

_________________________________

3 PzI 4 PzII 3 PzIII(kz) 10 PzIII(lg) 67 PzIV(lg) 13 PzVI 9 PzBef 35 StuG 40, 21 Marder, 6 Hummel, 12 Wespe, 12 Bison



Quote
Panzergrenadier Division Großdeutschland(Oberst Karl Lorenz 14 Jan 1943 - 1 August 1944)

In June 1943, with the addition of armoured personnel carriers and Tigers the division was redesignated Panzergrenadier-Division Großdeutschland, though in reality it now had more armoured vehicles than most full scale panzer divisions.

The newly re-equipped division was attached to the German Fourth Panzer Army of Generaloberst Hermann Hoth, and was to take a major role (again paired with the SS-Panzerkorps) in Operation Citadel, the battles to sever the Kursk salient. During the buildup period, a battalion of new Panther Ausf. D tanks came under the operational control of Großdeutschland. After the launch of Citadel, the division was heavily engaged in the fight to penetrate the southern flank of the salient. The new Panthers were plagued by technical problems, suffering from engine fires and mechanical breakdowns, many before reaching the battle. The division fought on until it was pulled back to Tomarovka on 18 July 1943.


Quote
III Panzerkorps (General der Panzertruppen Hermann Breith)
III Panzerkorps was formed in June 1942 from III. Armeekorps. The Panzerkorps was now attached to Heeresgruppe A, the formation tasked with capturing the Caucasus as a part of Fall Blau. After the disaster at Stalingrad, III Panzerkorps took part in the battles around Kharkov as part of Generalfeldmarschall Erich von Manstein's Heeresgruppe Don.

The Corps was attached to Generaloberst Hermann Hoth's 4.Panzerarmee in Operation Citadel, and was heavily involved in the fighting withdrawal from Belgorod to the Dniepr.

Logged
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #3 on: 4 October 2009, 11:45:16 »
ReplyReply

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83801

Quote
The area of the map was probably one of the most heavily defended stretches of the line. You count the numbers of pill boxes, etc. to see what the density is. On July 5th most of that area was defended by the 375th Rifle Division reinforced by three AT artillery regiments, one mortar regiment, one artillery regiment, two rocket launcher regiments, a tank brigade, three flamethrower companies, one AT rifle company, and an armored train battalion!



Quote
The number of Tigers to other German tank types was, very roughly, around 10-15% I think.
I think all of the Russian self-propelled guns/tank destroyers (SUs) were in independent regiments. The tank corps were about 2/3 T-34/76s and 1/3 T-70s.

Logged
Mad Russian
Guest

« Reply #4 on: 12 October 2009, 07:53:44 »
ReplyReply


What I would like to do is

on German side: OFFENSIVE
tank batallions with Tigers, Panthers and StuG's
infantry with artillery


There were only 2 battalions of Panthers used at Kursk. They were attached to Grossdeutschland PG Division and were worthless in this battle. There were some tigers and they were assigned to the SS units in Army Group South. They did some heavy fighting. There were not hundreds of them available. Probably closer to about 50 for the entire German Army at Kursk.

Both the Panthers and Tiger I's were used on the southern shoulder.

The Ferdinands were used on the northern shoulder. Their most interesting battle was at Ponyri Schoolhouse which has been done a dozen times.

Quote
on Russian side: DEFENSIVE with counterattacks
trenchlines with pillboxes
infantry with artillery
reinforcements will be tanks with infantry


That is anywhere in Kursk.

Quote
I would like to create a massive force but with the right %'s....meaning if they had 2 Panther companies for each Tiger company I would like it in the battle also 2 V's for 1 VI's etc.

All help is appreciated



If you do Kursk right there will be no Panthers. There would be a very few SS Tiger I's or some Ferdinands with very little infantry support.

I have done some work along these lines with some scenarios that British Tommy and I were looking to do. They are extremely hard to balance. They are not well suited for H2H play. They end up being brutal assaults on the trenches and through minefields so thick you lose most of your tanks, if you do historical OOB's in the north.

The southern flank is what you describe as wanting to do. That would mainly be in the area of Prokhorovka. Which was not the one large tank battle of the history books, but a series of armored meeting engagements instead.

I have the operational tank strength for the SS divisions for each day of the battle. That includes everything from the PzIII's they still had to the Tigers.

IF you want/need more information on that let me know.

Good Hunting.

MR
« Last Edit: 12 October 2009, 08:03:00 by Mad Russian » Logged
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #5 on: 12 October 2009, 19:03:23 »
ReplyReply

MR,

what I would like to achieve is an intense battle between 2 (semi)historical armies.

Germans: attacking and mobile with limited panzers compared to the Russians.
Russians: defending and mostly immobile except for T-34's

I want to give the German player a wide variety of panzers but in historical %'s:
for example: 1 plz Ferdinands, 2 plt Tigers with III's as aid and more of the rest...but in good numbers compared to eachother.

When you have a good idea as you suggest in the area of Prokhorovka you'll have my full attention.
Logged
Mad Russian
Guest

« Reply #6 on: 12 October 2009, 21:10:33 »
ReplyReply

I have an entire series of battles that Im working on in the area of Prokhorovka.

1) There are no Ferdinands in the south with the Tiger I's and Panthers. The Tiger I's were so few as to not be deployed in companies but often in platoons of 5 or often less. IMO, that's okay for this time period anyway because the Tiger I is very dominant on the battlefield and too many of them tips the balance of play.

2) I have extensive research done identifying 10 meeting engagements between the SS Panzer Korps and the Soviet Tank Army.

3) III Panzer Korps area has neither Panthers or Tigers but it's where the SU-152 was met. That can make for some interesting fighting as well. And it is attack the trenches with tanks as you described.

Good Hunting.

MR
Logged
Mad Russian
Guest

« Reply #7 on: 12 October 2009, 21:13:54 »
ReplyReply

MR,

what I would like to achieve is an intense battle between 2 (semi)historical armies.



WOW.....2 ARMIES.....!!!!!!!!!!!!   Geschokt

I have never been a big fan of the larger scenarios. Even tough I've made them myself at times. Sometimes it's hard to recreate the fight if it isn't big. Most of the battles around Prokhorovka weren't anywhere near division level let alone Army level.

Good Hunting.

MR
Logged
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #8 on: 12 October 2009, 21:46:41 »
ReplyReply

MR,

what I would like to achieve is an intense battle between 2 (semi)historical armies.



WOW.....2 ARMIES.....!!!!!!!!!!!!   Geschokt

I have never been a big fan of the larger scenarios. Even tough I've made them myself at times. Sometimes it's hard to recreate the fight if it isn't big. Most of the battles around Prokhorovka weren't anywhere near division level let alone Army level.

Good Hunting.

MR


not literally 2 armies...2 opposing forces I mean....
Logged
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #9 on: 12 October 2009, 21:51:55 »
ReplyReply

I have an entire series of battles that Im working on in the area of Prokhorovka.

1) There are no Ferdinands in the south with the Tiger I's and Panthers. The Tiger I's were so few as to not be deployed in companies but often in platoons of 5 or often less. IMO, that's okay for this time period anyway because the Tiger I is very dominant on the battlefield and too many of them tips the balance of play.

2) I have extensive research done identifying 10 meeting engagements between the SS Panzer Korps and the Soviet Tank Army.

3) III Panzer Korps area has neither Panthers or Tigers but it's where the SU-152 was met. That can make for some interesting fighting as well. And it is attack the trenches with tanks as you described.

Good Hunting.

MR


I want it to be historical in the equipment but when choosing the amount it should be and remain playable...

have a look at the map and tell me what size you recommend.

Tigers: how many?
III's: how many?
HT's: how many?
more panzers?
how much infantry?

German choices will depend on breaking the defences

Russian armor will depend on the German tanks who are attacking.
There are 2 battalions infantry defendeing their lines.
Logged
Mad Russian
Guest

« Reply #10 on: 13 October 2009, 00:20:23 »
ReplyReply

I've followed all the links in this thread that I can find and I find no map. Where is the map you want me to look at?

Good Hunting.

MR
Logged
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #11 on: 13 October 2009, 19:33:17 »
ReplyReply

I've followed all the links in this thread that I can find and I find no map. Where is the map you want me to look at?

Good Hunting.

MR


my mistake...I didn't upload my scenario in the 1st post...and I can't get to it at the moment...I got a package waiting for me at the post office so I hope it will be the cables for my new graphic card...when I get all I need I can ask the someone to 1.install my new PC and 2.have a look at the old PC
Logged
Mad Russian
Guest

« Reply #12 on: 15 October 2009, 02:13:15 »
ReplyReply

What you are looking for with the Panthers and Tigers never existed at Kursk.

On 11 July, the day before the tanks clashed at Prokhorovka records for the 4th Panzer Army show 1st SS PD with 56 tanks operational, of those 4 were Tiger I's.

2nd SS PD had 61 tanks including 8 captured T-34's. They had a single Tiger I operational.

The Panthers were with GD and were either put out of action from mechanical breakdown, getting bogged in the mud or knocked out by Soviet heavy artillery fire.

The Ferninands were on the north face of the battle not anywhere near the Panthers or Tiger I's.

This was all on the day before the tremendous tank battles at Prokhorovka.

The battle described for so many years is a myth perpetrated by the Soviets, to protect Soviet pride and certain General officers reputations.

The truth is that a major part of the fighting on the German side was done with Panzer III's.

Good Hunting.

MR
Logged
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #13 on: 15 October 2009, 18:40:01 »
ReplyReply

What you are looking for with the Panthers and Tigers never existed at Kursk.

On 11 July, the day before the tanks clashed at Prokhorovka records for the 4th Panzer Army show 1st SS PD with 56 tanks operational, of those 4 were Tiger I's.

2nd SS PD had 61 tanks including 8 captured T-34's. They had a single Tiger I operational.

The Panthers were with GD and were either put out of action from mechanical breakdown, getting bogged in the mud or knocked out by Soviet heavy artillery fire.

The Ferninands were on the north face of the battle not anywhere near the Panthers or Tiger I's.

This was all on the day before the tremendous tank battles at Prokhorovka.

The battle described for so many years is a myth perpetrated by the Soviets, to protect Soviet pride and certain General officers reputations.

The truth is that a major part of the fighting on the German side was done with Panzer III's.

Good Hunting.

MR



the info you give I'll use...
Logged
Mad Russian
Guest

« Reply #14 on: 15 October 2009, 21:07:37 »
ReplyReply

I was looking over some of the engagements for 12 July 1943, Army Group South for Operation Citadel.

Give me the situations as best you can for what you want. If there is more than one situation then give me that as well.

Good Hunting.

MR
Logged
Mad Russian
Guest

« Reply #15 on: 15 October 2009, 21:13:47 »
ReplyReply

Truth is much stranger than fiction. On that day the Germans were intending on attacking, clearing through Prokhorovka and breaking out onto the open steppe behind the village.

Instead of that the Soviets attacked. In the area of the SS Panzer Divisions they attacked with at least 1,000 tanks but in about 10 different engagements. NOT ONE BIG ENGAGEMENT but several smaller ones.

The day opened up with a Soviet infantry attack on the 3rd SS PD.

The day ended with a smashed Soviet Tank Army and the German divisions pretty much in the same locations and in the same shape as when the day started. Except that their composure had been shaken considerably. The 5th Guards Tank Army had not been identified as having been in the area at all.

The Komsomelets State Farm area is another area of very intense fighting both before and after 12 July.

Good Hunting.

MR
Logged
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #16 on: 15 October 2009, 21:19:47 »
ReplyReply

1. russians have a strong line of defense with minefields, trenches, pillboxes and ATG's
2. russians have a mixture of tanks, more in numbers, less in experience than the Germans
3. russians have more infantry

4.Germans have a mixture of tanks, less in numbers, better in experience
5.Germans have a mixture of infantry, Heer and WSS

the battle will be modified with the intel I get.

on map are now the structural defenses, pillboxes, trenches, ATGs and 3 battalions of Russian infantry who are not placed yet...just lined them up
Logged
Mad Russian
Guest

« Reply #17 on: 15 October 2009, 21:46:31 »
ReplyReply

You intend on doing all this on one map? Or each engagement has it's own map?

There is quite a bit of terrain in the area. It's definitely not flat where this fighting all takes place. And during most of this the ground was very muddy due to rain storms all during the battle.

That's what took most of the Panthers out. They tried crossing an area that was muddy and got bogged down. Soviet heavy heavy artillery then fired on them in the area they were bogged and an assembly area. That was pretty much the end of their story at Kursk.

Good Hunting.

MR
« Last Edit: 15 October 2009, 21:52:13 by Mad Russian » Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Unique Hits: 25976331 | Sitemap
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!


Google visited last this page 18 July 2019, 03:06:27