9 dead as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid convoy

Stoffel,

I hope you will understand that I write the following with all due respect both for the suffering the Jews went through over the centuries and WWII through the atrocities my people commited as well (and especially) to you whom I know in person.

This said, I think you have gone blind on the real issues.

Let me just state a few facts (I have to make a selection at this hour of the night/morning: You adressed so many, most have almost no connection to the current atrocity but should be covered in another thread), and as I have come to know you personally as a sincere, intelligent and trained person with a sure sense for inustice I guess you will soon see where you are going wrong wrong:

1. We are not talking the Palestinian/Israeli issue here, neither the (probably, but questionable) legitimate self defense against rockets. We are talking about a deliberate attack on an unarmed convoy (no difference actually if it had been armed) intending to bring wheel chairs and food to bloquaded Gaza (I understand this might be felt to be a provocation for Israel, but, please, check your own words below to see what I am basing my assessment on in detail: I just quoted the sentences/phrases I have problems with, assume I go along with the others).

2. Once we are clear that we are talking/judging this attack and not the general political spectrum (though of course it provides the background) let me still just defuse your stance on the hypothesis that we should indeed talk about it: Even in this case we would have to recognize that we cannot use the same argument once in favor and in another case in contra under the same circumstances, anything else would be intellectually dishonest and make any discussion obsolete as we entered a "religious" space where "belief" superseeds analysis. As military we have learned to analyze, let us keep at it and not use different measures for same/similar facts.

One example is your "They fight for survival nothing more nothing less" argument to explain the breach of law of this attack. Please NOTE that you yourself have rejected this argument over and over again in the Somali pirate discussion when someone used it to describe the situation of the guys there who have been deprived by us from their fishing grounds through big trawlers and contamination (read: Illegal duping of waste) in their territorial waters. Same thing, in both cases it is no excuse for breaking the law or even less for atrocities.

In this respect some more argumets that are no arguments stand out:

- "Rockets on Israeli towns"? No, on *illegal* Jewish (not Israel) settlements. Does not make it any better, but lets keep the facts straight anyway.

- "We simply cannot judge them"? No, we can and we should. Israel is a state as any other and no exception (however differently they might see it or feel), if I accept that my German or Spanish or your Netherlands state actions are open for judgement, for them the applies same rule.

- "Its been Hamas who torpedoed most of the progress made in the past years, not Israel". No: Israel has successfully torpedoed every intent of reconciliation between the ethnic groups over 60+ years. They have never accepted any ruling of whatever body, they are (illegally under int law!) bloquading an area that they gave jurisdiction up on when they had to retreat to public pressure after having gained it illegally, etc. Just look at the (terrorist? Al Quaida?) member of Knesset member whow was onboard the convoy (!) who was assaulted !!In parlament!! by an ultra right yesterday and deemed "traitor", spat on, etc. Does this not recall you of other ultra rights thaat have occupied your country and where it took years and years to liberate us from the menace?

3. Ignoring 2) let us get back to the true issue we are discussing here, the attack on the convoy (NOT the attacks on Israel):

Today we had the Spanish passengers finally back, and could hear (they were separated, so they spoke at different spots (Turkey, Spain, Egypt), different times and different interests: One is a NGO member, two were journalists: Of the latter one from "El Mundo" (not your left or liberal paper really), the other from "Telesur". I will append a (pro Israel) article of the "El Mundo" guy from the Gaza campagin last year so you can see he is without doubt to be taken seriously with his observations.

All three related the same, and it is shocking just to hear it and I guess even you will see why we non-Israelis are outraged (again), and from their stance and personal reputation I believe them (at least more as the Israeli state propaganda):

a) all stated clearly that the ships were fired on with 203s (NGO lady said fragmentation grenades) *before* the abseiling. All three independently stated that the captain over megaphone ordered white flags to be raised after the first shots from the distance and that the order was complied with.
b) all three seperately stated that they had seen several corpses and "lots of blood" on the upper deck when the helos were not even close and that hte pasenges only after this act of terrorism on the open sea resorted to organizing some kind of self defense (as you said - and please honor the argument as it is yours- : "They fight for survival nothing more nothing less")
c) alll three related "execution" style of killing of the commandos, especially on photographers (as they reported they saw several incidents where a commando pressed the pistol to the forhead of a photographer and just "executed him", the lady mentioned even unarmed and white flag waving people shot from short distance)
d) all three related that there were many more deads than reported: According to them they witnessed commandos throwing "a lot" of corpses overboard, their estimate varies between 14 nd 20 dead, 60+ partially severely injured
e) the telesur journalist said that he and others had grabbed the incident on mobile phones and cameras, the commandos first confiscated all of those
f) the "El Mundo" journalist telated that he knew of some videos that were not fetched by the Israelis by now aand would come out soon as proof for his relation.
g) all three related that the convoy *had* changed course on request and was travelling north parrallel to the coast when attacked in international waters

Stoffel, as the mil minded person you are, have you asked yourself really how anybody can support such action cold blooded? Why they get away with it finding yourself suppporting  it even? Who gains? Who gains? Think twice, please!

Why a Turkish ship?  Are the Israelis stupid?

Personally I do not think so. Their forces (and "Shayetet 13" more so) are expertly trined and professional, Mossad and Shin Bet can provide any analysis you can expect from a well functioning service, so I guess they kenw about the consequences.

If you recall our MBXes (especially Global Thunder) you will have realized that given a goaal and the means you are able to organize anything, ignoring whatever the law says if ir serves your purpose ("In war and lover everything is allowed").

Now, I find it interesting that a Turkish ship should be attacked just after the Turks agreed (on pressure of the EU and aginst behement protests of the Israelis) to serve Iran with enriched uranium to desvalidate their argument that they needed to enrich themselves (i.e. to make the probability of a nuke aimed against Israel less probable). I would not think it out of bounds that the Israeli government decided to pay them bck with a serious "touch of attention".

When I looked up the last years article of the "El Mundo" journalist (Salvador Sostres: "7 things I am fed up hearing people say about Israel") for me one paragraph stuck out and I felt personally addressed:



That is true, at least for me. I have seen myself dragged along again and again going irate but not taking consequences. A bit the same what we did with ETA here in Spain when we called them even into the ´80s "the separatist organization ETA" when talking aoubt the Hypercor massacre and only after ´85 changed deliberately into calling them "the Terrorist Group ETA" (anglosaxon papers, yahoo and google still today - despite the "official" definition after S11 of terrorist groups including them - refer to them under the first paraphrase).

Not anymore.

Fed up with this last deliberate atrocity I from now on will refer to the current Israeli government as the "Terrorist Government of Israel" on all my websites and discussion posts, and I feel backed up by any definition of terrorism I have been able to find.

And, should the IHH make their announcement true of assembling 200 ships to go to bring humanitarian aide to Gaza next time (what willl Israel do then? Hit them with a nuke? Would you, Soffel, still think this would be ok?) I am sincerely contemplating to be part of this effort.

And should I get killed and later be dubbed "an Al Quaeda" member I expect you to come to my tomb and tell me straight to my face that we who detest terrorism have been rightfully killed by an Israeli government in "self defense".

Rattler

APPENDIX: The (cudely) translated pro-Israel article by Salvador Sostre in "El Mundo", original: http://safed-tzfat.blogspot.com/2010/06/siete-topicos-contra-israel-salvador.html






 

I think it's when we think like that we suddenly find ourselves having done things that we regret for the rest of our lives.

and again  

BBC News - Israel diverts Gaza aid ship Rachel Corrie to Ashdod




"We saw today the difference between a ship of peace activists, with whom we don't agree but respect their right to a different opinion from ours, and between a ship of hate organised by violent Turkish terror extremists," Mr Netanyahu's office quoted him as saying.
a ship of hate with terrorists onboard all armed with kitchen knives? No bombs? No suicide attempts?

2 Belgian women on a boarded ship also got home yesterday, luckily in good health.
They said it was all very agressive altough nobody on their ship resisted.

read also another post on WaT about Rachel Corrie, the woman who was honoured by naming the ship after her: http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/wats-21st-century-zoo/wat-zoo-exhibit-15-rachel-corrie/

About the discussion what countries are "bad" and which ones not: only when the US government says so a country gets listed on the 'axis of evil'-list.
And we all know Israel will never get on that black list!

Why aren't there any military ships protecting these vessels during their trips in international waters? Unarmed ships in international waters?

Well this just gets better by the day, only Israel can make Iran look like the good guys in this mess.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-blockade-iran-aid-convoy/print

Really who is "We" and what does the US have to do in this?

As a more neutral country I am hoping the entire region decides to blow itself up because I really don't like any of them, maybe a huge middle eastern mushroom cloud on a day with the wind blowing toward Somalia and Central Africa would actually do the civilised world a great service, no more terrorism, no more Palestine/Israeli conflict, the small nuclear winter will solve global warming and we get rid of the bulk of world hunger and pirates in one hit.

Aren't the Russians and Yanks looking to downsize their nuclear pile, this may be just the method to achieve that as well.

Anyway I am not entirely sure Israel is up for this type of war as neither have the ability to really get at each other in a conventional way and if you back that with declining popularity in the nations around Israel I am not sure this would be a war Israel can win, for example the current Egyptian military is not the same bumbling bunch of camel jockeys they were in 1973 they are now a fairly well trained and equipped force.

I don't see why, how many billions of dollars does the West spend propping up the Israeli military and Government so they can kill Palestinians, how many billions do we then spend in food and medicine to the Palestinians so that can provide targets for the Israelis, how many billions do we spend spying on Iran, how many billions do we spend sending food and aid to Africa, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. etc., how many billions do we spend keeping navies on patrol for pirates and then how much is counter terrorism costing us every day in our daily lives (embarkation and importation security etc.)?

All this money is spent on basket case countries none of which will amount to anything useful no matter how much money we send them, the fact is that if Israel wasn't there Palestinians would be killing each other as they have done for thousands of years, Israel cant afford peace in the region as they would be bankrupt in week so they are happily stirring things up every time it gets quiet in the region and there is no amount of money on earth that will fix the likes of Somalia.

So the answer is simple get rid of the area nuke the lot and spend all that aid money on feeding and improving the lot of our own nations, I am tired of watching the story of little Gupta growing up on the mean streets of Delhi, $1 dollar a day buys him inoculations, education and a meal, meanwhile the Indian military has just purchased half a dozen carriers and the aircraft for them.

At some point this nonsense has to end or we will all be dragged down to their level.

What makes you so sure America will come to the aid of Israel in anything more than symbolic way, they are already pretty well tied up with their own wars of ideology and what better way for them to back out of any commitments than saying that attacking foreign warships escorting aid ships in International waters is not a good enough reason for us to get involved?



So because Syria kills people that some how justifies Israel doing it?
You seem to assume I support Syria or Iran or any of these other giant crap holes of religious self-righteousness the fact is I don't like any of them hence the reason I couldn't care less whether Israel wipes out Iran or vice versa as in the end its just one less bunch of intolerant a-holes on the face of the earth.
Don't assume I believe Israel is worse than Hamas or Hezbollah I just do not believe they are any better.



Well that is simple because if they do not find a way to co-exist they will eventually destroy each other.

sorry, but when people start calling me names or accuse me of being prominded to terrible political-historical inspired movements I quit....I've always been respectful in discussions....I'm not pro or against anything....I only discuss facts...things that happen(ed)..

why? not to get my 'right' but to listen to other opinions....to LEARN

but it seems that everytime 'Israel' or 'Judaism' comes into a discussion people must take sides and start another battle

The purpose of these discussions is to express our opinions and to learn from our brethren. And while I may be in opposition to your position, I still maintain the utmost respect for the cadre of contributors to this site (albeit one) and mean no disrespect ever. While I understand the desire to stay away from controversy, I think avoidance limits the depth of  the site. But then again, I am a guest here and shall defer to the powers that be.

In some ways I think this is one aspect of the problem. However, one must not disregard the way Israel was formed as adding to the mix. The formation of Israel was forced down the throats of those in the region, partly because of the fatigue generated by the Jewish terrorists upon the British occupiers, weary of war after WW2, and the worldwide guilt associated with having allowed the Holocaust to occur in the first place. The propensity for the powers that be, to ignore the ethnic & cultural borders present at the time, and to draw boundaries without considering the same (ex: the Kurds, the Vietnamese) have led to many of the current conflicts.




While I hope this is in fact true, Im afraid there are hard heads in the region that will never accept Israel (ex: Iran).