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Author Topic: 9 dead as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid convoy  (Read 14170 times)
MontyB
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« Reply #20 on: 4 June 2010, 02:06:03 »
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Not all muslems, only the terrorgroups.
Once they are gone and other Arab states recognize Israel instead of wanting to destroy it, only than can the talks start to negotiate a two state option.



You still haven't answered questions posed though, how can the West pressure China on human rights or North Korea/Iran on nuclear weapons while turning a blind eye nations we deem "friendly" who are no better without being a giant bunch of hypocrites?

In the end Israel landed on a ship in International waters and killed 9 of its passengers and crew in the process for no reason what so ever especially when the commandos they dropped on the boat said "We did not expect such resistance from the group's activists as we were talking about a humanitarian aid group," one unnamed naval lieutenant told Israel's Army Radio."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_israel_flotilla_tactics

That simple statement alone says that they used disproportionate force to that required to do the job which is a breach of the rules regarding the mission they undertook.

The simple reality is that Israel could simply have insisted on inspecting the ships and cargo before it entered the blockade zone and escorted to the zone and they would not have walked away with the giant PR nightmare they have now everybody would have been happy, had the flotilla refused the requests then Israel could have carried out its mission without any recriminations.  But no, shoot first and blame the victims later policy seems to still prevail.
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« Reply #21 on: 4 June 2010, 04:47:04 »
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Stoffel,

I hope you will understand that I write the following with all due respect both for the suffering the Jews went through over the centuries and WWII through the atrocities my people commited as well (and especially) to you whom I know in person.

This said, I think you have gone blind on the real issues.

Let me just state a few facts (I have to make a selection at this hour of the night/morning: You adressed so many, most have almost no connection to the current atrocity but should be covered in another thread), and as I have come to know you personally as a sincere, intelligent and trained person with a sure sense for inustice I guess you will soon see where you are going wrong wrong:

1. We are not talking the Palestinian/Israeli issue here, neither the (probably, but questionable) legitimate self defense against rockets. We are talking about a deliberate attack on an unarmed convoy (no difference actually if it had been armed) intending to bring wheel chairs and food to bloquaded Gaza (I understand this might be felt to be a provocation for Israel, but, please, check your own words below to see what I am basing my assessment on in detail: I just quoted the sentences/phrases I have problems with, assume I go along with the others).

2. Once we are clear that we are talking/judging this attack and not the general political spectrum (though of course it provides the background) let me still just defuse your stance on the hypothesis that we should indeed talk about it: Even in this case we would have to recognize that we cannot use the same argument once in favor and in another case in contra under the same circumstances, anything else would be intellectually dishonest and make any discussion obsolete as we entered a "religious" space where "belief" superseeds analysis. As military we have learned to analyze, let us keep at it and not use different measures for same/similar facts.

One example is your "They fight for survival nothing more nothing less" argument to explain the breach of law of this attack. Please NOTE that you yourself have rejected this argument over and over again in the Somali pirate discussion when someone used it to describe the situation of the guys there who have been deprived by us from their fishing grounds through big trawlers and contamination (read: Illegal duping of waste) in their territorial waters. Same thing, in both cases it is no excuse for breaking the law or even less for atrocities.

In this respect some more argumets that are no arguments stand out:

- "Rockets on Israeli towns"? No, on *illegal* Jewish (not Israel) settlements. Does not make it any better, but lets keep the facts straight anyway.

- "We simply cannot judge them"? No, we can and we should. Israel is a state as any other and no exception (however differently they might see it or feel), if I accept that my German or Spanish or your Netherlands state actions are open for judgement, for them the applies same rule.

- "Its been Hamas who torpedoed most of the progress made in the past years, not Israel". No: Israel has successfully torpedoed every intent of reconciliation between the ethnic groups over 60+ years. They have never accepted any ruling of whatever body, they are (illegally under int law!) bloquading an area that they gave jurisdiction up on when they had to retreat to public pressure after having gained it illegally, etc. Just look at the (terrorist? Al Quaida?) member of Knesset member whow was onboard the convoy (!) who was assaulted !!In parlament!! by an ultra right yesterday and deemed "traitor", spat on, etc. Does this not recall you of other ultra rights thaat have occupied your country and where it took years and years to liberate us from the menace?

3. Ignoring 2) let us get back to the true issue we are discussing here, the attack on the convoy (NOT the attacks on Israel):

Today we had the Spanish passengers finally back, and could hear (they were separated, so they spoke at different spots (Turkey, Spain, Egypt), different times and different interests: One is a NGO member, two were journalists: Of the latter one from "El Mundo" (not your left or liberal paper really), the other from "Telesur". I will append a (pro Israel) article of the "El Mundo" guy from the Gaza campagin last year so you can see he is without doubt to be taken seriously with his observations.

All three related the same, and it is shocking just to hear it and I guess even you will see why we non-Israelis are outraged (again), and from their stance and personal reputation I believe them (at least more as the Israeli state propaganda):

a) all stated clearly that the ships were fired on with 203s (NGO lady said fragmentation grenades) *before* the abseiling. All three independently stated that the captain over megaphone ordered white flags to be raised after the first shots from the distance and that the order was complied with.
b) all three seperately stated that they had seen several corpses and "lots of blood" on the upper deck when the helos were not even close and that hte pasenges only after this act of terrorism on the open sea resorted to organizing some kind of self defense (as you said - and please honor the argument as it is yours- : "They fight for survival nothing more nothing less")
c) alll three related "execution" style of killing of the commandos, especially on photographers (as they reported they saw several incidents where a commando pressed the pistol to the forhead of a photographer and just "executed him", the lady mentioned even unarmed and white flag waving people shot from short distance)
d) all three related that there were many more deads than reported: According to them they witnessed commandos throwing "a lot" of corpses overboard, their estimate varies between 14 nd 20 dead, 60+ partially severely injured
e) the telesur journalist said that he and others had grabbed the incident on mobile phones and cameras, the commandos first confiscated all of those
f) the "El Mundo" journalist telated that he knew of some videos that were not fetched by the Israelis by now aand would come out soon as proof for his relation.
g) all three related that the convoy *had* changed course on request and was travelling north parrallel to the coast when attacked in international waters

Stoffel, as the mil minded person you are, have you asked yourself really how anybody can support such action cold blooded? Why they get away with it finding yourself suppporting  it even? Who gains? Who gains? Think twice, please!

Why a Turkish ship?  Are the Israelis stupid?

Personally I do not think so. Their forces (and "Shayetet 13" more so) are expertly trined and professional, Mossad and Shin Bet can provide any analysis you can expect from a well functioning service, so I guess they kenw about the consequences.

If you recall our MBXes (especially Global Thunder) you will have realized that given a goaal and the means you are able to organize anything, ignoring whatever the law says if ir serves your purpose ("In war and lover everything is allowed").

Now, I find it interesting that a Turkish ship should be attacked just after the Turks agreed (on pressure of the EU and aginst behement protests of the Israelis) to serve Iran with enriched uranium to desvalidate their argument that they needed to enrich themselves (i.e. to make the probability of a nuke aimed against Israel less probable). I would not think it out of bounds that the Israeli government decided to pay them bck with a serious "touch of attention".

When I looked up the last years article of the "El Mundo" journalist (Salvador Sostres: "7 things I am fed up hearing people say about Israel") for me one paragraph stuck out and I felt personally addressed:

Quote
3. Look, I always supported Israel, but this time I cannot go on anymore. The funny thing is that the people who say this say it every time again.


That is true, at least for me. I have seen myself dragged along again and again going irate but not taking consequences. A bit the same what we did with ETA here in Spain when we called them even into the ´80s "the separatist organization ETA" when talking aoubt the Hypercor massacre and only after ´85 changed deliberately into calling them "the Terrorist Group ETA" (anglosaxon papers, yahoo and google still today - despite the "official" definition after S11 of terrorist groups including them - refer to them under the first paraphrase).

Not anymore.

Fed up with this last deliberate atrocity I from now on will refer to the current Israeli government as the "Terrorist Government of Israel" on all my websites and discussion posts, and I feel backed up by any definition of terrorism I have been able to find.

And, should the IHH make their announcement true of assembling 200 ships to go to bring humanitarian aide to Gaza next time (what willl Israel do then? Hit them with a nuke? Would you, Soffel, still think this would be ok?) I am sincerely contemplating to be part of this effort.

And should I get killed and later be dubbed "an Al Quaeda" member I expect you to come to my tomb and tell me straight to my face that we who detest terrorism have been rightfully killed by an Israeli government in "self defense".

Rattler

APPENDIX: The (cudely) translated pro-Israel article by Salvador Sostre in "El Mundo", original: http://safed-tzfat.blogspot.com/2010/06/siete-topicos-contra-israel-salvador.html

Quote
1. This was not a proportional response.

This is the first complaint ever, whatever happens. No response from Israel, since its founding, has been considered proportional. This exciting concept: Proportionality, as if it were a cricket match, as if it were a draw. And then, of course, the European pedantry to give lessons to everyone.

2. The Palestinians have only stones.

To further strengthen the notion of disproportionality, this emphasizes the lack of military resources of the Palestinians, as if deep down the utterer wished they had more ammunition to kill better. It is not true that the Palestinians have only stones: Its Arab neighbors are responsible for arming them conveniently and hence Israel has been forced to impose the blockade. As Golda Meir said, "I can understand that the Arabs want to wipe us off the map. But is it really our intent to cooperate with them in that? "

3. Look, I always support Israel, but this time I can not anymore.

The funny thing about this phrase is that the people who say, say it every time.

4. Israel has a right to exist within secure borders but not at any price.

And how to achieve a peaceful existence when his enemies pay any price to destroy it? How can there be peaceful existence with terrorists who feel more hatred for Israel than appreciation for their lives? In a situation of constant threat and that Israel lives in constant threat of extermination, what does mean "not at any price"? "From what price above has Israel to succumb and allow its removal off the map?

5. Israel sees terrorists of Al-Qaeda everywhere.

After 11-S of London's buses and trains from Atocha, it is surprising that Western nihilism of Islamist terrorism to speak in third person. Yes: everywhere lurks the Islamist threat, in an even more harrowing, bloody communist threat. And with the sole mission of destroying the free world.

6. Israel is losing all its international prestige.


This is one of my favorite topics, I have to admit. Israel had only international prestige in the Holocaust. Only then, suspiciously, the world took pity on the Jews. But apart from that brilliant moment, what other people in the world can boast, historically, has never been a non-Semitic and never have pursued the Jews? How many of these people have apologized for it? And how could ensure that erased the root of the anti-Semitism of their governments and their hearts?

7. It seems incredible that a very precise and professional army like Israel has killed so many people.


The topic is eternal and every occasion is set for the number of casualties. It is true that Israel has the best army in the world, but so is that a military confrontation can never tell what will happen and what you will find you. And above all, consider that Israel does not usually face a conventional enemy, but a kind of terrorism that used schools and hospitals as military bases, who does not mind using civilians as human shields, and weapons mix with humanitarian aid and cooperating terrorist. Wars are not like before. But something in the background remains unchanged. Golda Meir also said: "I have given express instructions, to be personally notified each time we drop a soldier, whether in the middle of the night. When President Nasser also will give instructions to be awakened in the middle of the night when an Egyptian soldier falls, peace will come. "





 
A country where every Arab or Palestinian can become a danger to you and your loved ones.
-snip-
The rockets continue to be fired by Hamas and delivered by Iran.... The Palestinians kept on going with acts of terrorism even after all the steps Israel took to please them.
-snip-
We simply cannot judge them, for Israel there cannot be any sign of weakness against Palestines anymore, nor can they afford to give away presents.
-snip-
Israel doesnt have the room anymore to be polite.
-snip-
They fight for survival nothing more nothing less.
-snip-
Israel gave back ground to the Palestinians, did that ease the relations? No, still every day people are in shelters because rockets are being fired on Israeli towns.
-snip-
Does anyone mourne about the suppressed Palestinians living under Hamas rule?
-snip-
If you give muslim based terrorgroups like that a finger they will cut of your arm as well with it.
-snip-
Its been Hamas who torpedoed most of the progress made in the past years, not Israel.
-snip-
....Israels army doesnt need the west anymore.
-snip-
A two state option is a good one but only worth anything if the Palestinian terrorgroups are disbanded and the Arab world recognizes Israel, rejecting their manifests of destroying Israel.
-snip-
Not all muslims, only the terror groups.
Once they are gone and other Arab states recognize Israel instead of wanting to destroy it, only than can the talks start to negotiate a two state option.

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stoffel
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« Reply #22 on: 4 June 2010, 17:08:24 »
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Matt,

My opinion is just what it is, my opinion.
I dont blame you for yours, dont blame me for mine.
I see it as I see it, nothing will change that.

Henk
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« Reply #23 on: 4 June 2010, 21:37:49 »
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I think it's when we think like that we suddenly find ourselves having done things that we regret for the rest of our lives.
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« Reply #24 on: 4 June 2010, 23:09:52 »
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I am not sure I understand exactly what you want to say in this context, 13th, but the phrase in itself is sure a feeling I understand and share.

Rattler
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« Reply #25 on: 5 June 2010, 19:06:57 »
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and again  hdbng

BBC News - Israel diverts Gaza aid ship Rachel Corrie to Ashdod

Quote
Israel diverts Gaza aid ship Rachel Corrie to Ashdod

An aid ship intercepted by the Israeli military while trying to break the blockade of Gaza has arrived in the Israeli port of Ashdod.

Israel says its soldiers boarded the Irish-owned Rachel Corrie from the sea and did not meet any resistance.

There has been no word from those on board, who include several activists.

The incident comes five days after nine people were killed in clashes when troops boarded a Turkish aid ship, prompting international criticism.

Israel says it will question those on board at the port and transfer the aid to the Gaza Strip by land after checking the cargo for banned items.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu hailed the peaceful outcome to the operation.

"We saw today the difference between a ship of peace activists, with whom we don't agree but respect their right to a different opinion from ours, and between a ship of hate organised by violent Turkish terror extremists," Mr Netanyahu's office quoted him as saying.

Mary Hughes, a co-founder of the Free Gaza Movement which organised the shipment, told the BBC she was "outraged" by the latest Israeli action.

"They (the Israelis) once again went into international water and violently boarded a boat and forced people against their will to go to Israel, when all we wanted was to be left to go to Gaza, which is our goal," she said.

She added that further aid shipments to Gaza would be organised.

"We will continue until we break the siege," she said.

Passengers gathered

There are five Irish and six Malaysian pro-Palestinian activists, plus several crew, on the boat.

The Rachel Corrie is named after a US college student who was crushed to death by an Israeli army bulldozer as she protested over house demolitions in Gaza in 2003.

Israel has blockaded Gaza since 2007, when the Islamist Hamas movement took control of the territory.

The 1,200 tonne cargo ship was boarded about 16 nautical miles (30km) off the Israeli coast.

Israeli military spokeswoman Lt Col Avital Leibovich said the takeover took just minutes, and the ship's captain had gathered the passengers in one area of the vessel.

Footage taken by the Israeli military from a helicopter above the Rachel Corrie showed the activists sitting in the middle of the top deck.

The ship had previously ignored repeated requests to change course, the Israeli military said.

The Cyprus-based Free Gaza Movement is a coalition of pro-Palestinian groups and human rights organisations.

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev accused the group of hypocrisy, saying "While they appear to use the language of human rights in, their propaganda, it appears they have embraced the [Hamas] regime that has no respect for human rights whatsoever," AP said.

The Rachel Corrie is carrying hundreds of tonnes of aid, including wheelchairs, medical supplies and cement. Construction materials are banned from entering Gaza by Israel, which says they could be used for military purposes by Hamas.

Israel came under fierce criticism after its troops shot dead nine people during a violent confrontation with those on board the Turkish Mavi Marmara in the early hours of Monday

Israel says its commandos were attacked with weapons, including knives, and opened fire in self-defence. Activists on the ship say troops shot at them without provocation.

The BBC's Jon Donnison in Gaza says Hamas has declared the week's events a victory, and a defeat for Israel.

Hamas says the world's attention is now focused on Israel's blockade of the territory, he adds.

Israel says its policies towards Gaza will not change while Hamas remains in power and while rockets continue to be fired from Gaza into Israel.

Protests over Israeli action against Gaza aid shipments were held in several cities around the world on Saturday, including Dublin, London, Istanbul, Paris and Cairo.



"We saw today the difference between a ship of peace activists, with whom we don't agree but respect their right to a different opinion from ours, and between a ship of hate organised by violent Turkish terror extremists," Mr Netanyahu's office quoted him as saying.
a ship of hate with terrorists onboard all armed with kitchen knives? No bombs? No suicide attempts?

2 Belgian women on a boarded ship also got home yesterday, luckily in good health.
They said it was all very agressive altough nobody on their ship resisted.

read also another post on WaT about Rachel Corrie, the woman who was honoured by naming the ship after her: http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/wats-21st-century-zoo/wat-zoo-exhibit-15-rachel-corrie/

About the discussion what countries are "bad" and which ones not: only when the US government says so a country gets listed on the 'axis of evil'-list.
And we all know Israel will never get on that black list!

Why aren't there any military ships protecting these vessels during their trips in international waters? Unarmed ships in international waters?
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« Reply #26 on: 6 June 2010, 01:18:21 »
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Why aren't there any military ships protecting these vessels during their trips in international waters? Unarmed ships in international waters?


Good idea actually, pirates and terrorists all about in the MED since a few days.

Rattler
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« Reply #27 on: 8 June 2010, 05:51:44 »
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Why aren't there any military ships protecting these vessels during their trips in international waters? Unarmed ships in international waters?



Well this just gets better by the day, only Israel can make Iran look like the good guys in this mess.

Quote
Gaza blockade: Iran offers escort to next aid convoy

Ian Black, Middle East editor
guardian.co.uk,    Sunday 6 June 2010 21.20 BST


Hojjatoleslam Ali Shirazi, an aide to Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, pledged Tehran would send Revolutionary Guard units to escort Gaza aid convoys.
Iran has warned that it could send Revolutionary Guard naval units to escort humanitarian aid convoys seeking to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza – a move that would certainly be challenged by Israel.

Any such Iranian involvement, raised today by an aide to the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, would constitute a serious escalation of already high tensions with Israel, which accuses Tehran of seeking to build a nuclear weapon and of backing Hamas, the Islamist movement that controls Gaza.

"Iran's Revolutionary Guard naval forces are prepared to escort the peace and freedom convoys that carry humanitarian assistance for the defenceless and oppressed people of Gaza with all their strength," pledged Hojjatoleslam Ali Shirazi, Khamenei's personal representative to the guards corps.

The threat came as the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, dismissed a UN proposal for an international commission to investigate last week's commando assault on aid ships, in which nine people died. Another aid ship, the Rachel Corrie, carrying Irish and other peace activists, was boarded peacefully by Israeli forces on Saturday, escorted to the port of Ashdod, and its passengers deported.

Netanyahu has defended Israel's right to maintain the blockade by arguing that without it Gaza would become an "Iranian port" and Hamas missiles would strike Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Israel's undeclared aim is to weaken or bring down the Hamas government.

Iran continued to exploit the "freedom flotilla" affair to lambast Israel. Its foreign minister, Manuchehr Mottaki, told the Organisation of the Islamic Conference in Jeddah on Sunday that Israel's crime was "another instance of the Zionist regime's brazen and merciless treatment of Muslims, especially the oppressed Palestinian people."

Mottaki also called for a UN resolution condemning Israel. The security council is discussing imposing new sanctions on Iran because of its failure to meet international demands over its nuclear programme.

Iran and Israel have had no diplomatic relations since the 1979 revolution and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad regularly predicts the disappearance of the Jewish state as well as denying the Holocaust.

Shirazi said Iran should encourage international efforts to break the blockade. "We should expose our enemies to spontaneous global action and not let them achieve their heinous goals," he was quoted as saying by the semi-official Mehr news agency.

Iran's Revolutionary Guards, which have a command structure separate from the regular armed forces, are fiercely loyal to the supreme leader. Khamenei has attacked the raid as a "mistake" that "showed how barbaric the Zionists are".

Israel's determination to strike at links between Iran and Hamas was dramatically demonstrated in January when presumed Mossad agents in Dubai assassinated Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, who was described as the Hamas official in charge of smuggling Iranian weapons into Gaza.

Israel's no-compromise attitude to aid convoys could be tested again after two Lebanese organisations pledged to send boats to Gaza in the next few days. Reporters Without Borders is attempting to assemble 25 European activists and 50 journalists for a boat leaving Beirut. The Free Palestine Movement is planning a similar attempt.

George Galloway, the founder of Viva Palestina, announced in London that two simultaneous convoys "one by land via Egypt and the other by sea" would set out in September to break the Gaza blockade. The sea convoy of up to 60 ships will travel around the Mediterranean gathering ships, cargo and volunteers.

guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media Limited 2010


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-blockade-iran-aid-convoy/print
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« Reply #28 on: 8 June 2010, 14:32:01 »
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Muhahahahahahaha  Brede lach

Iranian navy, wow I am impressed, that would bring fear to Israels servicemen and women.
And I dont think Israel will be either Knipoog
Let them come, so we can finish the job.
Something a lot of officers in the US army are eager to do for a decade or 3 now. hatsoff
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« Reply #29 on: 8 June 2010, 23:07:02 »
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Muhahahahahahaha  Brede lach

Iranian navy, wow I am impressed, that would bring fear to Israels servicemen and women.
And I dont think Israel will be either Knipoog
Let them come, so we can finish the job.
Something a lot of officers in the US army are eager to do for a decade or 3 now. hatsoff


Really who is "We" and what does the US have to do in this?

As a more neutral country I am hoping the entire region decides to blow itself up because I really don't like any of them, maybe a huge middle eastern mushroom cloud on a day with the wind blowing toward Somalia and Central Africa would actually do the civilised world a great service, no more terrorism, no more Palestine/Israeli conflict, the small nuclear winter will solve global warming and we get rid of the bulk of world hunger and pirates in one hit.

Aren't the Russians and Yanks looking to downsize their nuclear pile, this may be just the method to achieve that as well.

Anyway I am not entirely sure Israel is up for this type of war as neither have the ability to really get at each other in a conventional way and if you back that with declining popularity in the nations around Israel I am not sure this would be a war Israel can win, for example the current Egyptian military is not the same bumbling bunch of camel jockeys they were in 1973 they are now a fairly well trained and equipped force.
« Last Edit: 8 June 2010, 23:20:25 by MontyB » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: 8 June 2010, 23:34:06 »
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Using the great features of WaT (you can really hit "quote" in different messages and they will end up in *one* reply box for you Smiley )let me answer the two of you:

-snip- Iranian navy, wow I am impressed, that would bring fear to Israels servicemen and women.

Sorry, Stoffel, but by underestimating your enemy you have lost half the war already.

The Iranian Navy is well trained, well equipped, well organized, has won against the (in their time) mighty Iraq, and are dedicated and focussed. Nothing to ridicule there: They are probably lacking tech and (US provided) INTEL level compared to Israel, but I would not for one second doubt their crews, mariners and soldiers professionalism, they are a regional power as well as Israel is.

As a more neutral country I am hoping the entire region decides to blow itself up because I really don't like any of them, maybe a huge middle eastern mushroom cloud on a day with the wind blowing toward Somalia and Central Africa would actually do the civilised world a great service, no more terrorism, no more Palestine/Israeli conflict, the small nuclear winter will solve global warming and we get rid of the bulk of world hunger and pirates in one hit.

Aren't the Russians and Yanks looking to downsize their nuclear pile, this may be just the method to achieve that as well.

Monty, you have something there, though I sincerely hope it would not come to that, the "collateral" damage would be too much from my POV.

OTOH, now that the terrorist government of Israel has decided to turn down the offer of an independent investigation into the issue (they claim the investigation needs to be "responsible" whatever that means: The proposed comission would have been led by a NZ maritime law specialist, the team would haxe consisted of Brits, Germans, US and and an Asian/African body, with both a Turkey and Israel member aboard), at least Spain has reacted recognizing them on the same level as the terrorist organisation ETA, finally:

Today Israel was banned by the organizers to take part in a big international manifestation for civil rights in Madrid with the exact words we here have come to use for ETA: "Nobody who does not condemn the use of violence for political goals can take part in a demonstration for democratic and civil rights on Madrid territory".

Quote
(google translation) The president of the Spanish Federation-snip-, Antonio Poveda, explained that following the refusal of the Consistory of Civil Rights to condemn the attacks on the floatilla , FELGTB decided not to support the participation of that states representatives.

In any case, he has stated that "any Israeli organization defending human rights, and in particular LGBT rights, may participate in the parade."

"We would be filed with joy for an Israeli participation, especially if they favored a peaceful solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict and clearly defended peace" he asserted.


Finally it seems (at least city) governments are starting to get sensible... It really is time we call them openly what they are: State terrorists.

Of cause, and as expected, Israels state terrorism apologetic ambassador calls this an "antisemite" move and claims "discrimination and exclusion for religious motives":

http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20100608/carroza-gay-israeli-no-participara-marcha-del-orgullo-madrid-ataque-a-flotilla/334697.shtml

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« Reply #31 on: 9 June 2010, 00:21:40 »
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Monty, you have something there, though I sincerely hope it would not come to that, the "collateral" damage would be too much from my POV.


I don't see why, how many billions of dollars does the West spend propping up the Israeli military and Government so they can kill Palestinians, how many billions do we then spend in food and medicine to the Palestinians so that can provide targets for the Israelis, how many billions do we spend spying on Iran, how many billions do we spend sending food and aid to Africa, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. etc., how many billions do we spend keeping navies on patrol for pirates and then how much is counter terrorism costing us every day in our daily lives (embarkation and importation security etc.)?

All this money is spent on basket case countries none of which will amount to anything useful no matter how much money we send them, the fact is that if Israel wasn't there Palestinians would be killing each other as they have done for thousands of years, Israel cant afford peace in the region as they would be bankrupt in week so they are happily stirring things up every time it gets quiet in the region and there is no amount of money on earth that will fix the likes of Somalia.

So the answer is simple get rid of the area nuke the lot and spend all that aid money on feeding and improving the lot of our own nations, I am tired of watching the story of little Gupta growing up on the mean streets of Delhi, $1 dollar a day buys him inoculations, education and a meal, meanwhile the Indian military has just purchased half a dozen carriers and the aircraft for them.

At some point this nonsense has to end or we will all be dragged down to their level.
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« Reply #32 on: 9 June 2010, 13:56:58 »
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Monty,

Read Military technology april issue.
It deals with certain( secret) plans for an attack on Iran.
There is plenty of evidence that large groups of highranking officers and CIA members would like to attack Iran.
Wouldnt it be handy for them if Iranian ships enter Israeli territory.....

And regarding your statement of Israel killing Palestinians....... there have been several rebellions in th e80 s and 90s in syria and egypt.
Now if Israel kills some Palestinians the worlkd is in shock. But if Syria destroys an entire town with artillery and tanks and kill 100000 people including 40000 women and children you hear nothing about it...strange?
By the way why should Israel negotiate about peace if all Islamic countries and terroristgroups  have written down they will destroy Israel?
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« Reply #33 on: 10 June 2010, 00:41:01 »
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Monty,

Read Military technology april issue.
It deals with certain( secret) plans for an attack on Iran.
There is plenty of evidence that large groups of highranking officers and CIA members would like to attack Iran.
Wouldnt it be handy for them if Iranian ships enter Israeli territory.....


What makes you so sure America will come to the aid of Israel in anything more than symbolic way, they are already pretty well tied up with their own wars of ideology and what better way for them to back out of any commitments than saying that attacking foreign warships escorting aid ships in International waters is not a good enough reason for us to get involved?

Quote
And regarding your statement of Israel killing Palestinians....... there have been several rebellions in th e80 s and 90s in syria and egypt.
Now if Israel kills some Palestinians the worlkd is in shock. But if Syria destroys an entire town with artillery and tanks and kill 100000 people including 40000 women and children you hear nothing about it...strange?


So because Syria kills people that some how justifies Israel doing it?
You seem to assume I support Syria or Iran or any of these other giant crap holes of religious self-righteousness the fact is I don't like any of them hence the reason I couldn't care less whether Israel wipes out Iran or vice versa as in the end its just one less bunch of intolerant a-holes on the face of the earth.
Don't assume I believe Israel is worse than Hamas or Hezbollah I just do not believe they are any better.

Quote
By the way why should Israel negotiate about peace if all Islamic countries and terroristgroups  have written down they will destroy Israel?



Well that is simple because if they do not find a way to co-exist they will eventually destroy each other.
« Last Edit: 10 June 2010, 22:04:24 by MontyB » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: 24 June 2010, 16:41:34 »
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Interestingly not much has been added to this thrad since I got banned by my provider, I will change this over the weekend, because a lot has happened, including the weakining of the blockade from the Israeli side, a necessary and much apreciated move world wide.

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« Reply #35 on: 24 June 2010, 17:51:09 »
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Interestingly not much has been added to this thrad since I got banned by my provider, I will change this over the weekend, because a lot has happened, including the weakining of the blockade from the Israeli side, a necessary and much apreciated move world wide.

Rattler


sorry, but when people start calling me names or accuse me of being prominded to terrible political-historical inspired movements I quit....I've always been respectful in discussions....I'm not pro or against anything....I only discuss facts...things that happen(ed)..

why? not to get my 'right' but to listen to other opinions....to LEARN

but it seems that everytime 'Israel' or 'Judaism' comes into a discussion people must take sides and start another battle
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« Reply #36 on: 24 June 2010, 21:23:48 »
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Correct.

Its bad for the site.
Topics like these will always add a lot of fuel to hatred reactions, which is a thing we should avoid.

What Really Happened In The Middle East


Listen and watch this small doc, it contains a lot of things people tend to forget when dealing with the cruel Israelis.
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« Reply #37 on: 25 June 2010, 15:58:12 »
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The purpose of these discussions is to express our opinions and to learn from our brethren. And while I may be in opposition to your position, I still maintain the utmost respect for the cadre of contributors to this site (albeit one) and mean no disrespect ever. While I understand the desire to stay away from controversy, I think avoidance limits the depth of  the site. But then again, I am a guest here and shall defer to the powers that be.
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« Reply #38 on: 25 June 2010, 21:40:44 »
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A solution might be a two state option.
I will be the first to condemn Israel if they do not reply...but in order for that to happen several things have to be done first.

1) All Palestinian terrorgroups should be dismantled and their arms and rockets destroyed. ( both sides should not ask for criminal charges, however , very bad criminals/terrorists should not be alowed to get any governmental function)
2) A Palestinian police force backed up by UN personell to guard the borders.
3) all Arab states should recognize Israel and remove the chapters to destroy Israel.

Only if these 3 demands are fullfilled there is a chance of peace.
For the Arab states this would not be hard to do, so why wont they?

Because they envy Israel and want its wealth and resources?
Or is it because Israel has something that Arab countries fear, like freedom and democracy?
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« Reply #39 on: 25 June 2010, 23:23:41 »
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Or is it because Israel has something that Arab countries fear, like freedom and democracy?


In some ways I think this is one aspect of the problem. However, one must not disregard the way Israel was formed as adding to the mix. The formation of Israel was forced down the throats of those in the region, partly because of the fatigue generated by the Jewish terrorists upon the British occupiers, weary of war after WW2, and the worldwide guilt associated with having allowed the Holocaust to occur in the first place. The propensity for the powers that be, to ignore the ethnic & cultural borders present at the time, and to draw boundaries without considering the same (ex: the Kurds, the Vietnamese) have led to many of the current conflicts.


Quote
A solution might be a two state option


While I hope this is in fact true, Im afraid there are hard heads in the region that will never accept Israel (ex: Iran).
« Last Edit: 25 June 2010, 23:31:57 by FACman » Logged

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