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Author Topic: 9 dead as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid convoy  (Read 14575 times)
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« on: 31 May 2010, 18:38:51 »
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(CNN) -- The international community on Monday condemned an Israeli naval commando raid on a flotilla carrying aid for Palestinians in Gaza, leaving 9 people dead.

Israel claimed it was defending itself, with the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) saying the soldiers' lives were in danger after they were attacked with "severe physical violence, including live fire, weapons, knives and clubs."

The Free Gaza Movement, one of the organizers of the aid, said that Israeli commandos dropped from a helicopter onto the deck of one of the ships early Monday and "immediately opened fire on unarmed civilians."

A senior Israeli military official, speaking on condition of anonymity in an independent account cleared by military censors, said Israeli troops were planning to deal with peace activists on a Gaza-bound flotilla, "not to fight."

The military official said most of the nine deaths were Turks. Twenty people were wounded. Seven Israeli soldiers were also wounded, one seriously.



read more... http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/31/gaza.protest/index.html?hpt=T1

BBC News - Israeli navy storms Gaza aid ship

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/05/the_netherlands_shocked_by_gaz.php
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CUN20100531&articleId=19438
http://www.thelocal.se/26940/20100531/
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« Reply #1 on: 31 May 2010, 22:40:08 »
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9 citizens of the world dead, 0 Israelis dead. I miss the sense of proportionality here. The Israelis say they were under such dire circumstances as to require deadly force yet they only suffered one serious casualty. Not to mention that the Israelis precipitated the violence by storming the ship while in international waters. It would seem the people on the boats do not have the right to defend themselves against piracy, or that is what Israel would have the world think. This stinks to high heaven.
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« Reply #2 on: 1 June 2010, 01:39:02 »
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Putting on my best "diplomatic" hat here I think I will go with a "lets wait and get some facts" response, the incident is less than a day old and we all know how inaccurate the first reports of anything are.

Over the next week or so we will hear the Israeli side of things and I have no doubt it will paint a picture of impending "Arab terrorism" and we will hear the Palestinian view which will be of Israeli genocide I personally have little desire to believe either of them.
 
However if when the dust settles this is what it appears then I agree with you 100% and Israel should be punished even if it means freezing assets out side the country to cover reparations.

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« Reply #3 on: 1 June 2010, 14:32:35 »
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Have you seen the footage already released?
Those peacefull people on board had all kinds of home made weapons on board.
Molotov coktails, sharpened metal poles, large catapults, improved explosives.

The ship was ordered to go to the nearest Israeli harbor but rejected that order.
We all know that if you deny such an order you can expoect soldiers to visit you.
Normal behaviour is to speak to the captain, in this case the people on board used violence against the soldiers.
Trust me if I board a ship and guys came at me with metal poles, firebombs and other stuff with no other meaning than to kill me, I make sure they die for their cause first.
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« Reply #4 on: 1 June 2010, 20:05:11 »
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Have you seen the footage already released?
Those peacefull people on board had all kinds of home made weapons on board.
Molotov coktails, sharpened metal poles, large catapults, improved explosives.


Yes, I have seen the footage, and since we dont know when the footage was shot, we still dont know the sequence of events. Regardless, the Israeli's precipitated the deaths by illegally boarding a ship in international waters. No amount of apologizing or rationalizing will change the facts that the Israeli IDF forces were acting illegally. The arrogance of the Israeli govt in this instant is outrageous and deserving of worldwide condemnation.

To think that the Israelis were going to take these ships without incident belies the intelligence and intent of those sending the ships. Israel has played right into their hands with their heavy handed ways. This is political theater in its most primal form. Hamas might well have written the script for this. I for one, would defend the ship against such an attack as well, and would be within my legal rights to do so as long as we are in international waters. The laws of the sea are not superseded by Israeli wishes. Had they been Somalis taking the ship, they would be considered pirates. What gives the Israelis the right to ignore international law? Answer: Israeli arrogance.

As for what you would do Henk, you have the duty as a soldier to disobey an unlawful order, as should have the Israeli IDF members who participated.

Quote
The ship was ordered to go to the nearest Israeli harbor but rejected that order.


So, when the Israelis dictate orders to the rest of the world, we must all obey their commands?

Quote
We all know that if you deny such an order you can expoect soldiers to visit you.


I only expect to have have such soldiers respect international law, failure to do so could be a 'War Crime'.

To top it off, I will point out once again, the only ones to die were non-Israeli, makes it hard to believe the IDF forces were in life threatening position.
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« Reply #5 on: 1 June 2010, 20:43:20 »
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If the ship was merely sending humanitarian aid, there are ports where such aid is accepted. (It must be cleared since Israel has been attacked by rockets in the past; rockets which appeared in Gaza disguised as humanitarian aid.)  15,000 tons of aid is processed each week this way. 
Shame on Insani Yardim Vakfi and the Free Gaza Movement for using hundreds of innoncents as pawns in this game. I agree that these groups were counting on Israel to react; they were hoping for more dead--it's their modus operandi. 
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« Reply #6 on: 1 June 2010, 21:48:19 »
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If the ship was merely sending humanitarian aid, there are ports where such aid is accepted.


And where or who gave the Israeli Govt the mandate to dictate to the rest of the world how they interact with Israel's neighbors? As for using hundreds of innocents to further their aims, who's to say most of those folks weren't aware, nor expected this result? Seems like they are activists of one form or another and knowing Israel's propensity for acting aggressively, nothing happened here that wasn't foreseen.

While I understand the pressures Israel faces in light of their neighbors animosity, Israel has not helped their case on the world stage. Their continued failure to abide by the UN Charter, that they signed, makes them an outlaw nation, free to continue their ways, only because the US continues to defend the indefensable.
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« Reply #7 on: 1 June 2010, 21:53:48 »
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Have you seen the footage already released?
Those peacefull people on board had all kinds of home made weapons on board.
Molotov coktails, sharpened metal poles, large catapults, improved explosives.

The ship was ordered to go to the nearest Israeli harbor but rejected that order.
We all know that if you deny such an order you can expoect soldiers to visit you.
Normal behaviour is to speak to the captain, in this case the people on board used violence against the soldiers.
Trust me if I board a ship and guys came at me with metal poles, firebombs and other stuff with no other meaning than to kill me, I make sure they die for their cause first.


1) What part do International waters play in your argument, the last position I saw had them roughly 80 miles in International waters when the blockade only extends 20-25 miles beyond coast.

2) If you believe armed men boarding ships in International waters is perfectly acceptable how do you feel about Somali pirates and do you think that the crew of the Maersk Alabama should be charged with resisting their take over?

Personally I find this act at best incredibly stupid, to attack a flotilla 80 miles out in International waters who's mission was primarily humanitarian when doing so was guaranteed to cause international outrage (which was the flotilla's secondary role) when it originated from probably the only friendly Israel friendly nation in the Muslim world and while the ships were packed with international journalists and politicians is just amazingly retarded.
« Last Edit: 1 June 2010, 22:06:34 by MontyB » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: 1 June 2010, 22:18:02 »
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is just amazingly retarded.


Nah, just arrogant.

Israel is a nation sowing the seeds of its own demise.
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« Reply #9 on: 1 June 2010, 22:41:45 »
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is just amazingly retarded.



Nah, just arrogant.

Israel is a nation sowing the seeds of its own demise.



While I am not going to disagree with any of that I personally don't think we should be enthusiastic about that outcome.

I am sure Rattler will attest that I am not a huge fan of Israel but I do believe there has to be a political solution to the mess that is the middle east that is acceptable to the moderates of both sides the problem is that it is going to involve Israel giving up a lot more than a few random chunks of unproductive dirt and the Palestinians accepting that they are not going to get everything they want.

Unfortunately I have a nasty feeling that no settlement will be reached until both sides have been beaten into the ground and they have no options left which is somewhat of a shame as it means a lot more people on both sides will have to die for essentially nothing.
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I think this is the biggest mistake the Israelis have made in all of this....

Turkey demands Israel be ‘punished’ over Gaza raid
Philippe Naughton and Judith Evans
Turkey demanded today that Israel be punished for yesterday’s bungled commando raid on a flotilla of ships taking humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip.

The Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who interrupted a trip to Chile after the killings, told MPs from his ruling Justice and Development Party that “dry statements of condemnation” were not enough and Turkey demanded “results”.

“The insolent, irresponsible and impudent attack by Israel, which went against law and trampled human honour underfoot, must definitely be punished,” Mr Erdogan said.

“Nobody should test Turkey’s patience. Turkey’s enmity is as violent as its friendship is valuable. Losing Turkey’s friendship is a cost all on its own.”

Up to 40 Britons were on board the flotilla of ships, the Foreign Secretary said today, as eye-witnesses spoke of being beaten and shot at with rubber bullets during the raid.

At least nine activists, most of them Turks, were killed and one Briton injured in the pre-dawn raid in international waters, when Israeli commandos rapelled from helicopters on to the fleet of ships.

The first activists to be released claimed today that the soldiers had beaten passengers and used electric shocks to subdue them, but Israeli officials insisted that they had opened fire only after coming under attack from activists on the lead vessel, the Mavi Marmara.

William Hague said that "as far as we can tell" there were 31 British passengers and 11 British passport holders taking part in the aid mission when it came under attack.

"They have been detained, they are in a prison in southern Israel," Mr Hague said. "We expect them to be deported very quickly."

One of the British nationals has already been deported, he said, but added that others may not have identified themselves or destroyed their documents making it difficult to be precise about numbers.

British consular officials were meeting with those in detention and working hard to make sure they had "proper access" to their families, he added.

It was confirmed earlier that one Briton, Ahsan Shamruk, was injured in the attack and had received medical treatment.

Paveen Yaqub, 39, is among the Britons being held. She is a council worker from Huddersfield and was on board Mavi Marmara, the lead boat in the flotilla.

The last message Ms Yaqub wrote on her Facebook yesterday began: “Something has kicked off; I gotta run up deck.” Minutes later she added: “We are now surrounded by Israeli warships with helicopters circulating and following the convoy of ships heading for Gaza still. “We will not be stopping unless we are forcibly made to do so.”

Noreen Sheikh-Latif, a friend from Slaithwaite, said she was “extremely worried" about Ms Yaqub whom she regarded “as a sister”. She told the Liverpool Daily Post: “We were in contact with Paveen until two or three hours before the boat went under siege and nobody has heard from her since."

After 12 hours of negotiations that stretched into the early hours, the UN Security Council issued a statement demanding an “impartial” investigation of the deaths and condemning the “acts” that led to it.

Thanks to blocking action from the Americans, Israel’s closest ally, the presidential statement was notably weaker, however, than that drafted by Turkey, the Palestinians and Arab states, which had called for condemnation “in the strongest terms” and an independent international inquiry.

The pro-Palestinian groups which organised the flotilla said that they would send more ships with humanitarian supplies for the besieged Gaza Strip, but Israel warned it will halt any new bid to breach its blockade of the Hamas-run territory.

The crisis has provided Britain’s coalition Government with its first foreign policy challenge. Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister, called on Israel today to lift its “unjustifiable and untenable” blockade of the Gaza Strip.

“Whilst, of course, Israel has every right to defend itself and its citizens from any attack, it must now move towards lifting the blockade in Gaza as soon as possible,” he said.

Downing Street said that David Cameron had spoken by telephone to Binyamin Netanyahu to deplore the heavy loss of life and to urge him to ensure there was no repeat of yesterday’s events.

There was further confirmation of the attacks from President Medvedev of Russia, who said that the loss of lives was “absolutely unjustified,” while the European Union President Herman Van Rompuy called the events “inexplicable”.

Israel is still holding hundreds of activists detained in the raid but the first few deported said that the Israeli commandos had beaten passengers and used electric shocks during the assault.

Nilufer Cetin, a Turkish activists who hid with her baby in the bathroom of her cabin aboard the Mavi Marmara, told reporters she believed there were 11 dead.

“The ship turned into a lake of blood,” Mr Cetin told reporters in Istanbul after Israeli officials decided to deport her and her child.

She said Israeli vessels “harassed” the flotilla for two hours on Sunday night and then returned at around 4am yesterday, firing warning shots and telling the ships to turn back.

“When the Mavi Marmara continued on its course the harassment turned into an attack. They used smoke bombs followed by gas canisters. They started to descend onto the ship with helicopters,” she said, calling the clashes that then erupted “extremely bad and brutal.”

“I was one of the first victims to be released because I had a child,” she told reporters, but “they confiscated everything, our telephones, laptops are all gone.” Her husband - the ship’s engineer - was still being held by Israeli authorities.

Some 400 Turkish activists were on the six-ship flotilla, along with more than 30 Greeks and people of some 20 other nations including Germany, the United States and Russia. It had been trying to break the three-year blockade of Gaza imposed by Israel after the Hamas takeover.

“Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat,” said Dimitris Gielalis who had been aboard the Sfendoni and was one of six Greek activists returned home this morning.

“They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used,” he said.

He said the boat’s captain was beaten for refusing to leave the wheel, and had sustained non-life-threatening injuries, while a cameraman filming the raid was hit with a rifle butt in the eye,” he said. “Of course we weren’t prepared for a situation of war.”

The returning Greeks said those still in custody were refusing to sign papers demanded by Israeli authorities.

“During their interrogation, many of them were badly beaten in front of us,” said Aris Papadokostopoulos, who was aboard the Free Mediterranean traveling behind the Turkish ship and carrying mainly Greek and Swedish activists.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7141783.ece

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We have to expect that the USA will brush this aside with the usual "we regret loss of life, but Israel can get away with anything as they have a huge lobby" comments but this action has made it almost impossible for any European government as well as the Turkish government to simply gloss over it with political spin, when you add to this the continuing fall out over Israeli use of European and Australian passports in the assassination of a Hamas leader in Dubai a few months back it is becoming very difficult for anyone to blindly accept Israeli actions on good faith anymore, they are gradually turning themselves into an international pariah through stupid and unwarranted actions.

Just some food for thought, what if Iran had done this instead of Israel?
« Last Edit: 2 June 2010, 01:46:29 by MontyB » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: 2 June 2010, 01:20:58 »
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I have waited one day to gather sensible information in detail before I responded, here is my take:

As this is going to be a *very* long post (I think the incident deserves a detailed analysis) and there might be people here that do not have the time or the concentration span to read it in detail, I will do it the other way round as usually: Where I normally (in the sense of true discourse) first present facts, than analyze to get them into a reasonable order and last sum it up in a paragraph or so, I will for once start out with a summary, then comment, and finally lay out my reasoning in detail, I hope this is ok for you guys.

Inspired by a graphic I saw somewhere, here my first summary in a cartoon:



From my POV it could also be depicted like this (also not my idea, but I like it):



I am fed up with the Israeli politicians and their arrogance, malevolence, egoism, corruption and their state terrorism that they apply without remorse to try and get what they (as persons: Cash!) want:

Yesterdays attack on the 6 ships was illegal and absolutely desproportionate, indeed more appropriate for pirates than for a state that respects International Law.

It ws illegal, because indeed it took place in international waters over which Israel has no jurisdiction at all, however much the "Liberty Flotilla" might have been directed at Gaza. While it indeed seems to be the fact that the Isareli forces advised the flotilla some hours before that they would be boarded and that the mere existence of the flotilla and its stated intents might be considered a provocation as they did not change course as ordered to this does not in any way give Israel the right to board a group of boats with a stated (or even a pretexted) humanitarian mission.

It was desproportionate, because professionally trained commandos attacked with live fire basically unarmed people, however much those - absolutely legally under the circumstances - intended to defend themselves with steel rods, chairs and kitchen knives and left (last numbers) 19 civilians killed and more than 60 wounded.

The EU took the same stance as their foreign ministers consensed on a communique (a rare fact all by itself !) in which they addressed the action in plain words as "a massacre". The Spanish government called in the Israeli ambassador who defended the action in a very arrogant way in Spaanish TV ("Desproportionate? There were 600 people on board and only 10 died, I call this proportionate by all rights"), and the UN spokesman in Gaza called the attack an "collective international crime" (though the UN today did not condemn the attack in the end).

Of cause, and as was to be expected in the first moment, the Israeli government alleged that there were weapons on board, Al Quaeda terrorists that would have infiltrated into Gaza and that the organized resistance of the passengers was all by itself a terrorist act. Nothing of this comes even slightly close to reality as far as we know today, for example the three Spanish journalists on board clearly state the opposite, the true reasons why Israael opted for this attack are obvious: As the ambassador in Spain in the already mentioned interview stated about the stance of his government it sums up to - in his words -  "If we let one ship deliver humanitarian aid, 100 more will come".

From my POV Israel has every right to exist as a state in secure frontiers and to defend this right against attacks from militant groups as Hamas, but to punish all people in Gaza (the majority just wants to work and eat and have no political goals whatsoever) by a blockade and then attack illegally suspected blockade brakers cannot be accepted as measures of self defense against the enemy under any aspect of international law.

Yesterdays attack is a small scale reproduction of the over excessive and desproportionate use of force that Israel has developed as a consciously layouted pattern ("dont mess with us, you will get hurt") and already showed in the attacks on Lebanon 2006 and the gaza incursion/bombings 2008, in both cases there also the devastation created was plain overkill compared to the - legitimate! - objective of defending itself against Hamas or Hizbola.

The most immidiate consequence of this pirate attack - and I believe this was the real intent: Lives do not count at that operational stage (mission accompished, incl. an "Atta Boys" for the involved commandos) - will be the momentary end of all current hopes to reach a negotiated peace in the region that were created by Obama taking the seat of POTUS, because Nehatyanu has made it clear (again) that he will not make any concession (and Obama/Clinton *should* reallly feel offended).

Next notable consequence is that Israel just lost his strongest, closest and only muslim allie, Turkey, as can be seen by a previously unthinkable comment of a Turkish Prime Minister, who openly and plainly dubbed the attack on the (Turkish flagged!) ship as "State Terrorism". I wonder myself whether the Turks will call in NATO(?), which they could by all right out of the treaty. This would  be a seriously interesting twist, check out the NATO charter wording (excerpt, highlighting by me), this might have serious political consequences above the mere incident as to NATO treaty allowances and interpretations (S-11 made it clear that NATO responded to the US, will they respond to Turkey should the ask?):

Quote
Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Article 6 (1)

For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

- ...on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over...the Mediterranean Sea


Actually this reads for me that yesterday all 28 NATO members + their associates were attacked (Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States).



Did the Israelis think about that (if I can, they should be able to do so also, methinks)? If yes and they went on, this cannot be interpreted other as a seriously arrogant provocation to test their limits (actually playing the card that NATO will not blow up over some 20- civilian deaths), if not, then they are not only arrogant but also incompetent as politicians (which is actually a hunch I have: I have stated before my belief that with the corruption over there - I bet Mr. N. makes some 50 millions a year from the commissions of the weapons deals - it is all about the money and to keep the kettle brewing to guarantee the income... Fuck the world opinion, civilians, Palestianians and your own people, what counts is the cash in the bank every year... State Cynism?). Anyway, as you can see in the graph, potentially they just have taken on about half of the planet...  Kwaad

I expected the apologists to come out, this is normal in those cases where Israel is involved (hey, Israel just cleared the ships of all passengers, what is your bet they will - in a few days - thriumphally present a bunch of arms they found "after a thorough search" on the ships? El Mundo journalists have reported repeatedly before that they tried to introduce arms on captured boats in other occasions... The "terrorists" on board included e.g. writer Henning Mankell, Nobel Prize Lairead Corrigan-Maguire, 60 journalists from all over the world, etc...), but really: How can the international community tolerate whomever to freely and without consequences bomb, attack and kidnap at will in the Med, the heart of Europe? Are we all blind? This is a bit like South Africa during Apartheid, or Spain during Franco dictatorship, nothing happens despite clear infractions on everything we as soldiers have been or are fighting for, e.g. in Iraq, Astan or Somalia. And it works: Like the UN, NATO avoided in an extraordinary session invoked by the Turks to condemn the Israeli use of force directly...

This has to end, is my take. Fast. A limit has been surpassed, both as German and Spaniard this has been an attack on my homeland. And it seems Tuna is higher valued by the EU than the lives of European citizens, the first gets all states protection instantly.

First steps from my POV would include the revocation of all preferential treaties, recalling of ambassadors and a clear and outspoken isolation of this rouge state and his politicians, even the Iranian Mr. Afterdinnerjacket looks smooth against this bunch of corrupts.

Sorry, it is getting late, working over 4 hours now on that post, need to turn in, now I am glad I started with the summary...

Rattler
« Last Edit: 2 June 2010, 01:26:36 by Rattler » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: 2 June 2010, 14:01:28 »
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Just imagine that you do not live in a free country like ours but in Israel.
A country where every Arab or Palestinian can become a danger to you and your loved ones.
The news every week is full with incidents.
The rockets continue to be fired by Hamas and delivered by Iran.
We simply cannot judge them, for Israel there cannot be any sign of weakness against Palestines anymore, nor can they afford to give away presents.
The Palestinians kept on going with acts of terrorism even after all the steps Israel took to please them.
Remember very carefull Islam doesnt give you anything, it takes and it concurs.
Untill you are either dead or muslem.
Israel doesnt have the room anymore to be polite.
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« Reply #12 on: 2 June 2010, 16:13:23 »
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We simply cannot judge them


When Israel acts outside the bounds of international law, yes we can. Their trials and tribulations do not relieve them of their responsibilities to the rest of the world community. The world took pity on the Jews after WW2 and gave them a country in the middle of a Hornet's nest, and they have been given a lot of leeway over the years because of this. However, they have made the mistake of ignoring the UN resolutions (as well as the UN Charter) to remove themselves from the occupied lands and allow the return of refugees. Instead, they have settled in the occupied lands, removing the rightful residents and flaunting their will in the face of world condemnation of these actions. They insist on  following the lead of their former masters and kill 10 for every Israeli killed. It wasn't right when the Germans were doing it, it isn't right now.

The world is changing, and where Israel once had the backing of many countries in the world (as well as myself), they have now worn out their patience and are finding themselves more isolated than ever.
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« Reply #13 on: 2 June 2010, 17:31:20 »
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Jody,

To be honoust, I really dont care if they need the worlds approval.
They fight for survival nothing more nothing less.

Israel gave back ground to the Palestinians, did that ease the relations?
No, still every day people are in shelters because rockets are being fired on Israeli towns.
Israel started talks with Fatah, what happened.... Fatah was removed with violence by Hamas from Gaza.
Did anyone mourne?
Does anyone mourne about the suppressed Palestinians living under Hamas rule?
If you give moslemsbased terrorgroups like that a finger they will cutt of your arm as well with it.
They are tought by the Hadith to fight and kill all nonbelievers( including you and me) and to take their land untill all are true believers.
Its been Hamas who torpedoed most of the progress made in the past years, not Israel.
Israel could and can only act against them for security measures to protect its people, the arab world knew and know they will eventually lose the support.
But that doesnt matter anymore, because Israels army doesnt need the west anymore.

And on a sidenote, have you ever thought about from which country the Israelis get their oil?

A two state option is a good one but only worth anything if the Palestinian terrorgroups are disbanded and the Arab world recognizes Israel, rejecting their manifests of destroying Israel.
Unitll that happens I hold my breath and support my fellow jews.
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« Reply #14 on: 2 June 2010, 18:08:51 »
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Do not mistake my anger at the intransigence of Israel, as support for Islamic Jihad. On the contrary, as an American, under siege by the same Islamic radicals as would see Israel fall, I understand what defense means. However it seems that this blatant disregard for international law is counter productive, and only hurts their cause. When Israel pounded their adversaries in 67, I cheered them on. Some 40 years later, I am not so readily willing to do the same. And it is because of their arrogance. Much as the world disliked the arrogance of America under Bush's admin (myself included), I find myself drawing my support away from Israel for the same reasons. Please also remember, I take issue with Israeli policy, not Judaism, as all Israeli are not Jews. I recognize that my Gentile upbringing leaves a great vacuum for understanding the plight of the Jewish people throughout history, never the less, I have tried to understand and empathize as best I can. I do not take solace in the fact that my respect for Israel is on the wane.
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« Reply #15 on: 2 June 2010, 19:37:56 »
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Jody,

I cant and wont blame you for your thoughts, after all thats why we have freedom of speech.
However it are the same people we fight against who do not understand that freedom.........
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« Reply #16 on: 2 June 2010, 23:30:20 »
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Jody,

To be honoust, I really dont care if they need the worlds approval.
They fight for survival nothing more nothing less.

Israel gave back ground to the Palestinians, did that ease the relations?
No, still every day people are in shelters because rockets are being fired on Israeli towns.
Israel started talks with Fatah, what happened.... Fatah was removed with violence by Hamas from Gaza.
Did anyone mourne?
Does anyone mourne about the suppressed Palestinians living under Hamas rule?
If you give moslemsbased terrorgroups like that a finger they will cutt of your arm as well with it.
They are tought by the Hadith to fight and kill all nonbelievers( including you and me) and to take their land untill all are true believers.
Its been Hamas who torpedoed most of the progress made in the past years, not Israel.
Israel could and can only act against them for security measures to protect its people, the arab world knew and know they will eventually lose the support.
But that doesnt matter anymore, because Israels army doesnt need the west anymore.

And on a sidenote, have you ever thought about from which country the Israelis get their oil?

A two state option is a good one but only worth anything if the Palestinian terrorgroups are disbanded and the Arab world recognizes Israel, rejecting their manifests of destroying Israel.
Unitll that happens I hold my breath and support my fellow jews.


1) How many successful countries are there living in isolation?
2) How much oil does it take to make a tank?

More importantly if Israel doesn't need the West anymore should the West perhaps be concentrating on courting the more moderate Muslim worlds support I am sure that the Egyptians wouldn't say no to taking the yearly American contribution to Israel I can't say that the if the USA gave up on Israel their popularity wouldn't go up in the Muslim world.

The simple reality is that despite the arrogance involved in statements about "not needing anyone" and "not caring about world opinion" Israel does need the rest of the world even if it is only for trade and there is not one nation on the face of the Earth that can survive on its own.
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« Reply #17 on: 3 June 2010, 13:43:52 »
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Sure Monty,

We can support the muslimes, let them eliminate Israel.
Than who will be next ?
I make a list for you... Israel, USA, Europe.

I suggest you already buy a nice set of burkas for your wife.
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« Reply #18 on: 3 June 2010, 18:52:42 »
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Sure Monty,

We can support the muslimes, let them eliminate Israel.
Than who will be next ?
I make a list for you... Israel, USA, Europe.

I suggest you already buy a nice set of burkas for your wife.


So we should let Israel eliminate the Muslims?
We should accept the arguments of "right of self-defense" justify any actions any time anywhere?

If so where does it stop, North Korea sinks a South Korean ship in "self defense, Iran builds nukes but thats fine they have a right to defend themselves.  I have to admit I really don't care how the Israeli/Palestinian thing turns out any more because personally I find them as bad as each other.
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« Reply #19 on: 3 June 2010, 19:31:42 »
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Not all muslems, only the terrorgroups.
Once they are gone and other Arab states recognize Israel instead of wanting to destroy it, only than can the talks start to negotiate a two state option.
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My topics are about my personal opinion, my thoughts and what I think. They do not reflect the official opinion of the ministry of defense of the Netherlands.
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