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Author Topic: Round 1 Scenario Thunder at Banya Pass  (Read 7790 times)
Mad Russian
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« on: 3 January 2009, 06:34:43 »
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Round 1 is over. Time to discuss the scenarios.

This is the discussion thread for the scenario

Thunder at Banya Pass....

Author - Britsh Tommy

Let him know how you felt about the scenario.

Good Hunting.

MR
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British Tommy
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« Reply #1 on: 3 January 2009, 11:37:13 »
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After my error of starting a thread too early  Rollende ogen I'm looking forward to hearing players views  Smiley
I will be rewriting the briefings to make it clearer to the players on what to expect in the opening turns.
Many thanks to all who post here,
Bob (British Tommy)
« Last Edit: 3 January 2009, 15:57:11 by British Tommy » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: 3 January 2009, 12:33:46 »
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Unfortunately, my game hasn't ended yet, so I can't assess how easily half a dozen T34s can slice through Hungarian butter. Smiley

- unusual forces (at least for the Axis player) - very nice
- map which allows bypassing, but at the price of passing through rocky areas - nice, though I personally hate rocky ground because it makes plotting from any view but 1 or 2 very hard
- both players get to attack - nice
- briefing urges the Axis to rush, which is a very good advice; without that info, I might have arrived in Benya when the T34s were already there - good

For me this is a really good scenario (as much as I can assess it without having seen the scenario file or having finished it Knipoog), easily the best of the three.

Improvement ideas:
- While CM gurus may already know that rocky ground and trucks don't mix well, it may be worthwhile to disrecommend against driving trucks through rocky ground - I knew it takes longer, but didn't understand that it takes AGES to cross just one tile.
- I had two tanks bog and get immobilized on open ground (of course far away from the action Tong). That came as a surprise to me because the ground conditions seemd ok. If this is a systematic issue, it might be worth mentioning in the briefing as well.
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British Tommy
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« Reply #3 on: 3 January 2009, 16:06:56 »
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Many thanks for your comments DrVonCool  Smiley
The Russians may find slicing through Hungarian butter harder than it looks  Grijns
I didn't mention about trucks crossing rocky ground in the briefing because I thought 99% of the players out there would already know as the CM games have been out for quite a few years now but a hint in the briefing would do no harm  Smiley
I also hate having my tanks bog down and sod's law says they will bog down out of LOS of the battle or with their flanks facing the enemy  Kwaad
I set the ground conditions to dry so it must of been an unlucky dice roll for your tank  Onbeslist
Very pleased to hear your enjoying the battle and hope you end up with a major victory  Grijns
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« Reply #4 on: 3 January 2009, 18:55:46 »
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I left a AAR on the other thread.

MR:  Get the admin to move the other replys over here.

Cut/Copy/Paste works as well for you as it does for me.....MR

Here is your original post:


I enjoyed the scenario a lot.  I managed, as the Russians, to get a draw, but it was a lot of work!

The terrain was a big player in this one.  My opponent (Jimbo) was very good at using it and I ran into several costly ambushes.  This tactic really slowed me down and the game came down to the wire.

Those SP's are nasty!  One shot, one dead T-34!   :'(

I read the briefing the same as barracuda and hauled ass for the town, but the Hungarians took your advice and hauled ass too, so my initial assault ran into a buzz saw.  In retrospect, I would not be so rash next time.  It is easier to retake the town than to try to defend it from an aggressive opponent.

Overall, a very nice scenario.  It was balanced and had terrain that allowed a lot of innovative tactics.
[/b]
« Last Edit: 3 January 2009, 20:57:50 by Mad Russian » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: 3 January 2009, 19:30:57 »
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On the previous thread there was a call for allied winners to tell their story.

I played allied and won big. My opponent surrendered after loosing all but two of his tanks.

I did the following as allies.

1) Rush my recon units (in half trucks) out of the village along probable axis routes of advance. They died very fast, but created an illusion of a probe, slowing down the axis for a crucial 1-2 turns.
2) Had the initial t34 and some infantry, rush the woods on the left of the village, and set up an ambush for any axis flankers.
3) Rushed all of my remaining infantry assets into the woods and set up ambush positions.

My opponent tried to execute a pincer. Strong armor forces on each side. The lone t34 supported by an infantry squad held one of the flank  for 12 turns. A testament to the poor Hungarian armor, they tried, but all their shells bounced off my t-34. The infantry in the woods ambushed the Hungarian infantry coming for the village. The causalities were very bad for the Allies here. The axis infantry was on tanks and trucks, they dismounted and proceeded into the woods. I waited until point blank range, and opened fire. We slaughtered several infantry squads and may trucks in about 30-40 seconds of fighting. After this the axis tanks opened up, and my infantry was as good as gone. However this sacrifice bought me time. By the time the axis reorganized and mounted a second attack, I had my reinforcing T-34,s in position. The attack was cut down, and my fresh infantry units along with t-34 attacked across the hill, encircled the axis and proceeded to methodically and systematically slaughter axis infantry and tanks. My opponent surrendered about 4 turns after my counter attack after all his armor (except two damaged tanks) was destroyed.
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« Reply #6 on: 3 January 2009, 20:13:51 »
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just moved this from the other thread.......

I transferred infantry from the trucks and placed them on the tanks and charged up and over the ridge in four locations.
I also swept around the left on the road using tanks and infantry in trucks. Using the armored cars to speed ahead I discovered no one at the small flag so I advanced armor to the ridge to the side and rear of the town.
As my troops were slowly moving through the rough on the ridge and setting up overwatch on the town the Soviets were receiving reinforcements which were being routed while they were in or just dismounting from their trucks. It seemed some reached cover but the mass of HE from the tanks especially the SP’s routed them too.
This was about the same time the tanks broke out of the rough on top of the ridge and with the infantry and the SP and 75mm tanks in overwatch the 40mm tanks charged right to the buildings in the town, point blank to the Soviet infantry.
The T34 came out from behind a building and knocked out 2 of the 40mm tanks but while that was happening, using the buildings as cover and again taking the briefing to heart, I charged all of my armor except the SP’s in to the town surrounding the T34. While using the shoot and scoot command from behind the building I was lucky enough to immobilize the T34 and then take it out with a rear shot from an SP on the ridges to the side and rear of town.
At that point, with the town pretty much surrounded by armor and using half my infantry to assault and the other half along with the SP’s as over watch any Soviet infantry that fired was quickly targeted, pinned, routed or killed. I took almost 40 prisoners, including a couple of full squads and the rest were eliminated.
By turn 10 the town was completely taken.
That’s when the first T34’s started to arrive.
I had one SP covering the gap in the woods entering the town and one 75mm high up on the western flank. Three T34’s pushed forward two targeting the 75mm on the flank knocking it out. But while doing this the SP knocked out one T34 and then a third T34 that was moving up. Here I was very fortunate in that the SP took several hits with the last hit only shocking it.
By the end of turn 11 I had the gap entering the town covered in a semi-circle and at that point the Soviet was in dire straights.
Any infantry moving up were quickly routed as they had little cover to approach the south end of the town and any T34’s that came through the gap were targeted by the three SP’s to the front and a host of 75mm and 40mm tanks from the flanks.

I have to say I was very lucky that:
1) Not one tank was immobilized due to terrain.
2) The SP’s took several hits and were not knocked out or immobilized.
3) When the SP’s knocked out a T34 they were quickly abandoned saving the SP’s AP ammo which by the end was nearly depleted.

As far as Allied reinforcements go it’s a tough call.
If the Axis does not hold the town by turn 10 it would be very difficult to take after that.
If the Allies get more reinforcements in one shot instead of being spread out the Axis with only 3 SP’s and little else as far as being able to stop the T34’s could easily be overwhelmed.

I would be hard pressed to tell what, if anything should be changed in this scenario.

In looking at the results the scores seem to swing both ways with a few in the middle.
I would like to hear from the Allied winners on how they did so well.

So it seems to me that it could go either way depending on a few breaks from the gods of war, the aggressiveness of the Axis and/or the patience of the Allies.
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[hirr]Leto
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« Reply #7 on: 3 January 2009, 22:07:30 »
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As the allied commander, I assessed the map and terrain and determined two things:

1) the road from the second flag needed to be defended (gun placed on overwatch here)
2) the woods to the north of Banya was a perfect place for Soviet ambushes on what I saw as the only true infantry advance lain the Hungarians had.

My T-34 was taken out quite quickly by a SP gun (that was a big surprise, but I already had a force of T-70's going around to the other side of the woods to hit the Hungarians from the rear, which caught a few tanks flatfooted: especially a Zryina AG.

The Hungarians concentrated on three attack routes: 1) through the woods to the west 2) through the woods to the east, and 3) up the road.

My first wave of infantry and tanks moved to defend against 1) ambushing several infantry and destroying one tank.  Several Hungarian tanks approached to support the infantry and provide HE support against my troops, but only had two turns before my T-34's from the first set of reinforcements arrived through the woods and backed them off, chased them down and destroyed them. 

The Hungarian player concentrated a great deal of his force at 2) using the ridgeline to park his armor and support his infantry movements, and eventually took the town around turn 12-14... but my second wave of reinforcements entered and had begun to counterattack along the road towards the Russian flag.  After losing two T-34's to Zryinyas, the T-34's from 1) had flanked around behind the ridge and then knocked out the Zryinas.  These T-34's, supported by the infantry then flanked the Hungarian force from 2) that had entered the town (a couple of tanks and infantry) and 3) a Zryinya and a few Turans that came down the road (1 was taken out by the AT gun before it was itself taken out).  This flanking movement along with the attack up the road caught the remainder of the Hungarian tanks in a crossfire and the game ended in a Major Victory for me.

The Hungarian player (was someone I had never played before) did state that he felt the game was hugely unbalanced, making me feel like I didn't deserve the victory. 

Overall, I would have been better suited as the Hungarian, as the Hungarians have to make use of special weapons and terrain quite expertly to defeat the Russians.  I would think that as the Hungarians, you are better off coming down the road and not allowing for a flank on the side of your Zryinyas.  They are hard to defeat frontally.  Leading with the Zrinya's and 75 Turans, you should be able to defeat the Soviet armor piecemeal as it arrives.  But you have to get into town quickly to do this.  The lighter gunned Turans should not be used at all to engage the T-34's but used as decoys, and or flanking groups that can get in behind the Russian forces.

Overall, this scenario was the best and most exciting of the three that I played and I would give it high marks for map and terrain use, force balance, and use of special tactics.  If a player goes into this one as the Hungarian looking to shoot it out in a tank battle, then he is going to lose... this one deserves special attention as the Hungarian player, but from my perspective, is highly winnable and I would stake my reputation that I could win as Hungarian on this map against the best of players.

Thanks for the scenario BT, very enjoyable!

Cheers!

Leto
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British Tommy
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« Reply #8 on: 4 January 2009, 02:19:02 »
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I left a AAR on the other thread.

MR:  Get the admin to move the other replys over here.

Cut/Copy/Paste works as well for you as it does for me.....MR

Here is your original post:


I enjoyed the scenario a lot.  I managed, as the Russians, to get a draw, but it was a lot of work!

The terrain was a big player in this one.  My opponent (Jimbo) was very good at using it and I ran into several costly ambushes.  This tactic really slowed me down and the game came down to the wire.

Those SP's are nasty!  One shot, one dead T-34!   :'(

I read the briefing the same as barracuda and hauled ass for the town, but the Hungarians took your advice and hauled ass too, so my initial assault ran into a buzz saw.  In retrospect, I would not be so rash next time.  It is easier to retake the town than to try to defend it from an aggressive opponent.

Overall, a very nice scenario.  It was balanced and had terrain that allowed a lot of innovative tactics.
[/b]


Very pleased to hear the scenario gave you and your opponent an enjoyable battle  Smiley
LOL! yes those Hungarian SP guns really make the Russian player sit up and take notice when his first T34 explodes!  Geschokt
Many thanks for taking the time to post your comments.
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British Tommy
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« Reply #9 on: 4 January 2009, 02:42:44 »
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just moved this from the other thread.......

I transferred infantry from the trucks and placed them on the tanks and charged up and over the ridge in four locations.
I also swept around the left on the road using tanks and infantry in trucks. Using the armored cars to speed ahead I discovered no one at the small flag so I advanced armor to the ridge to the side and rear of the town.
As my troops were slowly moving through the rough on the ridge and setting up overwatch on the town the Soviets were receiving reinforcements which were being routed while they were in or just dismounting from their trucks. It seemed some reached cover but the mass of HE from the tanks especially the SP’s routed them too.
This was about the same time the tanks broke out of the rough on top of the ridge and with the infantry and the SP and 75mm tanks in overwatch the 40mm tanks charged right to the buildings in the town, point blank to the Soviet infantry.
The T34 came out from behind a building and knocked out 2 of the 40mm tanks but while that was happening, using the buildings as cover and again taking the briefing to heart, I charged all of my armor except the SP’s in to the town surrounding the T34. While using the shoot and scoot command from behind the building I was lucky enough to immobilize the T34 and then take it out with a rear shot from an SP on the ridges to the side and rear of town.
At that point, with the town pretty much surrounded by armor and using half my infantry to assault and the other half along with the SP’s as over watch any Soviet infantry that fired was quickly targeted, pinned, routed or killed. I took almost 40 prisoners, including a couple of full squads and the rest were eliminated.
By turn 10 the town was completely taken.
That’s when the first T34’s started to arrive.
I had one SP covering the gap in the woods entering the town and one 75mm high up on the western flank. Three T34’s pushed forward two targeting the 75mm on the flank knocking it out. But while doing this the SP knocked out one T34 and then a third T34 that was moving up. Here I was very fortunate in that the SP took several hits with the last hit only shocking it.
By the end of turn 11 I had the gap entering the town covered in a semi-circle and at that point the Soviet was in dire straights.
Any infantry moving up were quickly routed as they had little cover to approach the south end of the town and any T34’s that came through the gap were targeted by the three SP’s to the front and a host of 75mm and 40mm tanks from the flanks.

I have to say I was very lucky that:
1) Not one tank was immobilized due to terrain.
2) The SP’s took several hits and were not knocked out or immobilized.
3) When the SP’s knocked out a T34 they were quickly abandoned saving the SP’s AP ammo which by the end was nearly depleted.

As far as Allied reinforcements go it’s a tough call.
If the Axis does not hold the town by turn 10 it would be very difficult to take after that.
If the Allies get more reinforcements in one shot instead of being spread out the Axis with only 3 SP’s and little else as far as being able to stop the T34’s could easily be overwhelmed.

I would be hard pressed to tell what, if anything should be changed in this scenario.

In looking at the results the scores seem to swing both ways with a few in the middle.
I would like to hear from the Allied winners on how they did so well.

So it seems to me that it could go either way depending on a few breaks from the gods of war, the aggressiveness of the Axis and/or the patience of the Allies.


Excellent AAR and good aggressive tactics used  Smiley
This scenario was play tested for over a year and I can only thank my play testers for the way it turned out. Mad Russian and I think it was Bannon did the final play test and they helped add the final polish. Just glad everyone seemed to enjoy playing the scenario. Thanks again for posting here and I enjoyed reading your AAR  Smiley
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British Tommy
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« Reply #10 on: 4 January 2009, 02:54:18 »
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As the allied commander, I assessed the map and terrain and determined two things:

1) the road from the second flag needed to be defended (gun placed on overwatch here)
2) the woods to the north of Banya was a perfect place for Soviet ambushes on what I saw as the only true infantry advance lain the Hungarians had.

My T-34 was taken out quite quickly by a SP gun (that was a big surprise, but I already had a force of T-70's going around to the other side of the woods to hit the Hungarians from the rear, which caught a few tanks flatfooted: especially a Zryina AG.

The Hungarians concentrated on three attack routes: 1) through the woods to the west 2) through the woods to the east, and 3) up the road.

My first wave of infantry and tanks moved to defend against 1) ambushing several infantry and destroying one tank.  Several Hungarian tanks approached to support the infantry and provide HE support against my troops, but only had two turns before my T-34's from the first set of reinforcements arrived through the woods and backed them off, chased them down and destroyed them. 

The Hungarian player concentrated a great deal of his force at 2) using the ridgeline to park his armor and support his infantry movements, and eventually took the town around turn 12-14... but my second wave of reinforcements entered and had begun to counterattack along the road towards the Russian flag.  After losing two T-34's to Zryinyas, the T-34's from 1) had flanked around behind the ridge and then knocked out the Zryinas.  These T-34's, supported by the infantry then flanked the Hungarian force from 2) that had entered the town (a couple of tanks and infantry) and 3) a Zryinya and a few Turans that came down the road (1 was taken out by the AT gun before it was itself taken out).  This flanking movement along with the attack up the road caught the remainder of the Hungarian tanks in a crossfire and the game ended in a Major Victory for me.

The Hungarian player (was someone I had never played before) did state that he felt the game was hugely unbalanced, making me feel like I didn't deserve the victory. 

Overall, I would have been better suited as the Hungarian, as the Hungarians have to make use of special weapons and terrain quite expertly to defeat the Russians.  I would think that as the Hungarians, you are better off coming down the road and not allowing for a flank on the side of your Zryinyas.  They are hard to defeat frontally.  Leading with the Zrinya's and 75 Turans, you should be able to defeat the Soviet armor piecemeal as it arrives.  But you have to get into town quickly to do this.  The lighter gunned Turans should not be used at all to engage the T-34's but used as decoys, and or flanking groups that can get in behind the Russian forces.

Overall, this scenario was the best and most exciting of the three that I played and I would give it high marks for map and terrain use, force balance, and use of special tactics.  If a player goes into this one as the Hungarian looking to shoot it out in a tank battle, then he is going to lose... this one deserves special attention as the Hungarian player, but from my perspective, is highly winnable and I would stake my reputation that I could win as Hungarian on this map against the best of players.

Thanks for the scenario BT, very enjoyable!

Cheers!

Leto


Very pleased you enjoyed playing the scenario and it was interesting how you worked out the area's of attack and defence. Your one of the top players out there so it's not too surprising your opponent walked away slightly battered  Geschokt  I know from the results and the comments posted here that the scenario is not too unbalanced, it's down to tactics and how you use the terrain to your advantage that helps win the battle.
Again, excellent AAR and good use of tactics. Many thanks Leto!  Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: 4 January 2009, 19:11:53 »
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I didn't finish but It's a good scenario. The terrain is very important.
As axis side I worked with it alll the time and that was very fun.
I heard about the poor armor against the T34 but I can't say... I didn't arrive to the face to face, only skirmish and recon fights between infantry and some light amor.
« Last Edit: 4 January 2009, 19:14:05 by morkern » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: 4 January 2009, 21:16:45 »
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In the onion wars, we have to use a lot of Hungarian armor.
If you use them right you can get good results even against T34 and KV tanks.
Treat them as if they are not armored Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: 5 January 2009, 11:31:13 »
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The problem is : the briefing says me to attack quick so I've attacked quick with which result : tin cans burning ! Bedroefd

It takes time to go to the village and to deploy all the tin cans. "Deploy" is a big word : how to deploy in a rough terrain like this map ? You have corridors that russian player can easily close. First russian reinforcements comes too quickly. A cautious russian have no difficulties to destroy any hungrian tank (excluding Zrinyi).

Allied players : play hungrians. Grijns
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« Reply #14 on: 12 January 2009, 07:31:23 »
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A very well constructed scenario indeed and my hat is off to the designer- British Tommy.

As the Hungarian briefing said you need to get to the town quickly in order to catch the garrison flat footed and before the expected reinforcements of T34's arrive.  This I did with 3 main points of attack, one over the ridge through the rocky terrain taking the most direct route from the nearest point in the Hungarian starting area, another coming from the main road but then diverting up over the ridge between a couple of breaks in the woods terrain and close to the town with the third travelling all the way along the road supported by the turn 3 reinforcements.

This seemed to work well with the tank and infantry riders coming over the ridge through the rocks able to ambush most of the truck borne reinforcements into the town although suffering to a certain degree from 3 defending T70's & the lone T34 before they were able to be taken out by some hail fire and a Zryini managing to finally hit the T34 after 3 previous attempts.  The other 2 pincers were able to pretty much roll up the remaining defenders in town including the armoured cars due to the weight of HE and infantry fire from the attacking hordes.  With only the halftrack able to escape from the initial defending force and the first reinforcement group.

I then seriously thought about playing it safe and sitting back to force my opponent to attempt to take the town back from me with most of my assets still intact apart from 1 Toldi I, a Toldi IA and a Toldi II having been lost to that point but instead I felt that it would make for a rather boring game and decided to attempt to keep the momentum going by staying on the offensive.  This decision probably didn't work overly in my favour as in the process I managed to lose another 4 Toldi II's, 2 Toldi I's and a precious Zryini for the return of 4 more T34's.  The most annoying part was it inevitably seemed to be the HQ tanks that I was losing which had significant drawbacks for the Hungarians as the command delays for the remaining tanks in the platoon once this occured were pretty bad, despite it being a late war scenario.

Unfortunately we were only able to reach turn 30 before having to ceasefire but the township was still not under any threat from the remaining T34's as they were not well supported by then by much in the way of infantry as a large portion of the infantry force had been dealt with.  My opponent may possibly have managed to attempt an end around attack of the town via the Hungarian controlled road network but it would have taken some time to do and it would have only been with 2 T34's without infantry support which would usually be fraught with danger, especially with some satchel charge armed squads still in the township.

The most disappointing moment was when I managed to manoeuvre a Zryini into a position to get a bead on a T34 that had already knocked out 2 of my Toldi II's, have it fire twice for 2 misses and then the one reply from the opposing tank managed a fatal penetration of its supposedly tougher front upper hull.  I thought these guys were virtually as good as Tigers from the frontal aspect!  The most pleasing moment was to have a lowly half squad sneak up and assault a T34 from its brush location and achieve an immediate hit for an abandonment to result.  Unfortunately the squad did not last much longer after that copping a cannister blast from the T34's comrade some 30 metres further away but it was a small price to pay for the end result.

Once again, I thought it was a great scenario but I dread to think how difficult it would be to stop the Soviet horde if the Hungarian player isn't able to capitalise on their initial overwhelming advantage and still be fighting for control of the village before the waves of T34's and their infantry support arrive.

Regards

Jim R.
« Last Edit: 12 January 2009, 07:35:49 by von Reichmann » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: 12 January 2009, 17:43:19 »
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Well written Jim.  I think you covered it well.  I think I should have abandoned the edge of town sooner with my lone T-34 and T-70 to await my reinforcements rather than losing them.  Your blitz certainly kept me on the defensive, and as you say it would have been difficult to take the town, although I may have been able to pick off more armor.  Even though I lost soundly, I enjoyed this one.
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« Reply #16 on: 12 January 2009, 21:22:37 »
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This one was my favorite of the first trio. I got a Major Vic as the Russians. I was a bit startled at the beginning as there were Hungarians coming out of the woodwork with loads of tanks. Just as my forces in town were starting to crumble, in come the T-34s to save the day. And boy did they ever, one after another the Hungarian tanks were brewed up. Probably not as much fun for my opponent, he made some bad decisions and paid dearly for them.

But I sure as hell had a blast!  Brede lach Thanks British Tommy.
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« Reply #17 on: 22 February 2009, 01:07:53 »
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I'm so sorry I haven't posted replies but the last few months I've had computer problems with my XP and Vista computers  :'(
Thank you all for taking time to post your comments and I'm very happy to hear most of you enjoyed the battles.
Lastly, thank you Steve for asking me to make a scenario for your tournament  Smiley
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Bert Blitzkrieg
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« Reply #18 on: 2 April 2009, 15:27:05 »
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By far the most entertaining scenario of the first round !

I played as Russian and I found it particularly entertaining because at first I was pushed back and hardpressed to stem the Hungarian tide. The second phase was to try to reatke all the lost ground. The nearer we got to the end of the game the easier it was, so the number of turns was (in our case) very well picked too !

In the end I managed a minor victory. Those Hungarian 105 SP's were killers BTW !

One of the best CMBB scenario's I ever played !

A real winner champ
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« Reply #19 on: 3 April 2009, 00:33:01 »
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Thanks Bert and I'm glad you and your opponent enjoyed playing it  hatsoff
Now does anyone have a copy of the scenario? I lost mine when both computers decided to pack up!  hdbng
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