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Author Topic: Round 1 Scenario I Woke Up Dead  (Read 10185 times)
Mad Russian
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« on: 3 January 2009, 06:33:06 »
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Round 1 is over. Time to discuss the scenarios.

This is the discussion thread for the scenario

I Woke Up Dead....

Author Bannon DC.

Let him know how you felt about the scenario.

Good Hunting.

MR
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DrVonCool
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« Reply #1 on: 3 January 2009, 12:22:52 »
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I'm only in the middle since my opponent had to slow down for RL reasons (I'm firmly holding the church, and his troops never made it closer than 50m or so before being sent back), but here are my thoughts so far anyway (based on the assumption that no side suddenly gets some sort of heavy HE thrower or artillery):

- map fits the story - nice
- trench system gives a good WW1 feeling, though it's mainly decoration - nice
- whoever gets to the church first will hold it and win (I can't assess whether the Allies have a general advantage here  or whether it was just our game, but I managed to be there one full turn before him) - bad

Unfortunately, the third point dominates the other two.

Maybe if there were two or three such heavy buildings in the middle, so that it was not so obvious where to send reinforcements?
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von Staudt
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« Reply #2 on: 3 January 2009, 19:06:38 »
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I posted on the other thread.

MR:  Can you get those posts moved over here??? Huh?


Moved by MR.....


I have pretty much the same impression and conclusions as Voland.  Mine was reversed though, and the Russians got to the church first.  From then on, it was a meat grinder for the Germans.

Between the briefing, the weather, and the sound, I felt like I was in a Dracula movie!   Geschokt

I made a mistake in trying to stay out of the way of the initial artillery barrage, and had my troops too far back.  Then it was too far to get to the church first.  The briefing made it sound like all hell was going to come down in the first turn.  I am not sure if it is CM or the scenario design, but the initial barrage turned out to be really weak and anticlimactic.  It wasn't worth hiding from.

I don't think I would play it again, at least without some antidepressant medication close at hand.
« Last Edit: 3 January 2009, 21:01:08 by Mad Russian » Logged

***von Staudt***
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« Reply #3 on: 3 January 2009, 19:16:06 »
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My impressions of this scenario are mixed.

Good.

The scenario presents an interesting challenge. The weakened forces and random reinforcements are a hard package to deal with.  The map is interesting, and the trench system is cool looking (but unfortunately irrelevant).

Bad.

To me this felt like a one trick pony. Here is what is needed. Rush the church, and hold it at all costs. Give the forces available, however this task is not really a challenge. I think that barring horrible reinforcement results, the player that gets to the church first wins. Once you have infantry in the church, there is no way the weak infantry only forces will be able to dislodge the defenders.

Reinforcements. Very bad. I did not understand the point of having AT assets arrive as reinforcements. They are useless and unrealistic. If I was the commander on the ground, all the AT teams would get a rifle and be integrated into infantry platoons, as it often happen during the war. I would even integrate cooks, communications personnel and any one able to hold a rifle into my infantry squads.

AAR

I played Germans. I assembled most of my forces in a location closest to the church. I shelled my enemies shortest pass, my opponent did the same. All my able bodied troops started rushing the church, going as fast as possible. I got to the church first. I spent the rest of the battle funneling reinforcements to the church, and repealing attack after attack. I won a solid victory. My opponent did not have a prayer once I got troops into the church.
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TedRam1
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« Reply #4 on: 3 January 2009, 20:15:13 »
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from the other thread.....

I was the Russians and got to the building and the small flag next to it first and spent the rest game feeding the line and repulsing the German attack.

I thought the AT guns and AT rifles clever and made me anticipate armor coming out of the mist on my flanks. A scary proposition.
Which, by the way, may be an interesting twist. Probably would be the only way to knock out the pillbox and advance on the flag there.

I moved all my men up to the building except for one or two units that stayed behind to control the flags and watch the flanks.
It was something I had never done in CM before moving over that terrain as fast as I could with tired and weakened troops.
That was pretty cool and quite a challenge.

I wonder, did anyone take the building once it was occupied by the other side?
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Mad Russian
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« Reply #5 on: 3 January 2009, 21:04:34 »
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All posts were transferred from the other thread for this scenario so it will either be deleted or closed. No information was lost and having two threads on the same subject isn't good.

Good Hunting.

MR
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« Reply #6 on: 4 January 2009, 07:41:20 »
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This scenario was very different from any other I have played.  It was basically a race to the Monastary.  Whoever gets there first wins!  I place my arty on the route I thought my opponent would take, and got lucky.  He caused some casualties and I believe gave me the time to get to the Monastary first.  Once there, it was impossible for him to dislodge me. 

I thought it was okay, probably because I won, do not think I will play it again though.

Regards
Stndrtnfhr
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morkern
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« Reply #7 on: 4 January 2009, 19:10:41 »
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Ok with Dr VonCool, nice map but poor interest. No tactical option and just a big savage battle on the center around the chruch.
We can reduce the scenario to : the first arriving at the top win. That's all...
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[hirr]Leto
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« Reply #8 on: 5 January 2009, 03:11:26 »
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Unfortunately, I did not get to the church first... and lost.   I pre-plotted my arty strike for turn 10 so that I would catch the Soviet troops approaching the church, while my men would be on the very opposite slopes to charge and attack the disoriented Reds.  It didn't work as planned. 

I appreciate infantry fights... and was very disappointed by this one.  It was like a reviewer above said: a one trick pony.  Maybe I am a bit biased as I lost this one, but I think that this one can only be won if one wins a very vicious fire fight at the church... and I don't care for blunt force scenarios.

I managed to disrupt a few of the soviet forces at the back of the church and destroyed and entire platoon flanking the church to the west, but as time wore on, I could not get close enough to the large flag to disrupt the Soviet control of it... and as I became frustrated I made a few foolish charges that ended up predictably with high casualties.

Probably would not play it again.

Cheers!

Leto
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« Reply #9 on: 5 January 2009, 03:50:10 »
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Map was pretty, though a bit large.
Beat up starting forces, was a nice touch.
Variable rein in a Tourney game, not so good.

My reasoning:
 A tourney is generally used to determine a ranking vs others, in this case, based on ones handling of your CM tasks.
 Variable reins increases the effect luck plays in the scenario,  for the purposes of a tourney it would seem to cloud the issue.

J
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AF Baal
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« Reply #10 on: 5 January 2009, 11:05:59 »
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I share Morkern's opinion : first in the church win, not good for a tournament.

I've forgotten at start "swift" movements when I see the quality of my troops and the terrain. I've succesfully tried flanking my opponent with practically no effects on the battle (too late). Germans have better morale in CMBB : you have to almost destroy their squads before they rout. It takes time, too much time when you're russian as me. When you move under enemy fire, you're crucified. DUG IN MY COMRADES ! Smiley

You all experiment this in this battle ... Perhaps a good scenario for someone who wants to try a particular tactical situation, not for "determine a ranking" like someone said before me.

I lost, no doubt that is the reason I've found it bad or it's possible too that I'm not so good and I completely do it the wrong way ! Grijns
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DrVonCool
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« Reply #11 on: 5 January 2009, 20:55:16 »
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I pre-plotted my arty strike for turn 10 so that I would catch the Soviet troops approaching the church,

You're not one who likes to follow rules given in the briefing, like the one about "NO DELAY" given three times (!) on pages 1, 3 and 4 of the briefing, eh?  Rollende ogen  :'(
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MeatEtr
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« Reply #12 on: 11 January 2009, 04:58:07 »
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I give this one credit for being different, but ultimately a bit of a disappointment. I agree, it is essentially a rat race to the church. I was the first one to the church and enjoyed the slaughter that ensued. I was even able to take a whole platoon of reinforcements to flank his pillbox and eventually take one of his small flags. At least that was the plan until my opponent disappeared.

IMHO there is too much reliance on good ole fashion luck, ie. random reinforcements and heavy arty guessing.

But I still kinda like it for being different.  Knipoog
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von Reichmann
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« Reply #13 on: 12 January 2009, 08:01:57 »
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As has ben mentioned before, this scenario is a one trick pony.  First to the church wins pretty much without exception unless both sides have forces arrive there in a virtual dead heat.  This is not what I would expect a tournament scenario to be like as I would hope to see a range of choices to attempt to achieve victory.  Here there was none and it was obvious right from the outset.

For whatever reason my Soviet forces were able to reach the church first by a good turn and a half and that decided the battle by about turn 4 or 5.  Although my artillery fire did not hit a damn thing I gather it may have delayed the Axis forces moving towards the church to some degree (the only explanation I can think of why my guys arrived first).  The Axis artillery certainly achieved more in terms of kills (took out a 50mm mortar and 12 men located in their locked position around the small flag nearest the pillbox) but it did not delay my guys moving towards the church so I guess that may have been a factor as well.

Anyway, not my idea of a tournament scenario and although I could see that it was cleverly designed in terms of using Axis and Allied trenches and barbed wire located at various places in enemy territory, this wasn't enough to raise it in my eyes as a scenario that was enjoyable to play.  I also would love to hear the designers views on why a 50 point bonus was provided to the Allied side as I would have thought that both sides were relatively evenly matched despite the German HMG's being better than Maxims but, on the other hand, a Soviet 45mm gun is more effective against infantry than a German doorknocker, assuming it arrives in time to be of any use of course!  i.e. mine didn't

Regards

Jim R.
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Bannon DC
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« Reply #14 on: 15 January 2009, 04:53:51 »
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Thanks for the comments, all.

Based on the consensus opinion, I will have to agree... "one trick pony."   Bedroefd

Sounds like the heavy building (church) was the deal killer.  Perhaps fighting over the hill itself would be better.  Even rubble would be too much of an advantage.

In terms of design, I guarantee you that both sides have and equal chance of reaching the church at the same time from both starting locations.  I ran several tests to make sure.  Both sides' forces are as even as possible in terms of men and firepower.  I even made sure platoon HQs were evenly equipped with a pistol, SMG, and rifle instead of ending up with two rifles.  A Maxim vs. a German HMG?  I gave the Soviets an extra LMG to compensate (in terms of force-wide considerations; not for every HMG the Germans had).  All forces were "regular" to make the HQ bonuses more prevalent.

For AT assets, someone picked up on it... to make you think you might indeed need them.  Uncertainty.  ATRs also reduce PBs effectively.  In one my H2H tests, the AT gun was employed against the church, so I would not say it is useless.

I truly hate mirrored-forces scenarios myself.  There is no uncertainty about what your opponent has.  Half the fun is gone for me.  I thought making the forces mirrored, but random, would bring back that uncertainty.  Uncertain if you will even get all your men.  Makes it necessary to "soldier on" and get the job done regardless.  More representative of carrying out orders and playing the cards as they are dealt.  In all my tests, I did not experience NOT receiving all the reinforcements (although I am aware it could happen... and did to at least one of you).

Regarding luck... luck has a lot to do with a soldier's life... some prefer to call it destiny.  In World War II, a friend of mine's father walked out of a bunker unharmed that took a hit during the battle of Midway.  Everyone else died or was horribly wounded.  In CM, luck determines if the heavy artillery takes out 12 men and your mortar team... or only the HQ with all the pluses... or nothing at all even if on target.  Luck determines if your 50mm mortar does anything effective.  The designer does not control that.   

In this scenario, luck determined your hand where each player had 10 reinforcement "cards."  Luck determined what forces came in and when.  Each side had the same forces and same chance of receiving them each turn.  All reinforcements were set to the exact same % chance of coming in.  The reinforcements themselves came in small amounts so if you did not receive some it should not have tipped the balance significantly.  It was for the player to make the best of what he received... a MG or a mortar team... a platoon or AT gun.  There is a close level of balance there.  Statistically, most games would be evenly balanced.   But, of course, it is YOUR game that matters.   So you can curse your luck or curse the designer.  Kwaad  People generally do both anyway, random reinforcements or not.   Grijns

The trench system ended up being eye candy.  It looked "half done" if I scrimped and didn't make the entire trench system including communication trenches.  It might be interesting to take it up to the battalion level with ample artillery and play "king of the hill" with more toys.

One of my inspirations for this one was "In Deadly Combat" by Bidermann.  Truly a "must read" for CM fans.   There is a photo of a German squad humping it up a rugged barren hill in the Crimea with some sort of building up top.

Again, thanks.  The comments are appreciated.  Smiley

Bannon
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FACman
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« Reply #15 on: 15 January 2009, 06:04:07 »
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B DC sez:
Quote
...luck has a lot to do with a soldier's life...


Agreed, I would daresay that by the very fact I can post here, your point is proven.
No Sir, my point was more directed to the poor lout, who's run of bad luck brings his superior tactics to ruin, in a tournament no less. I in fact, used var reinf in my first scenario, to good effect, and therefore do not argue with your use of them in the basic design of this scenario. I only question the value of their use under tourney conditions, where we seek a clarity as to our skills, when compared with those of  our opponents.

Disclaimer:
Remember; with my opinion and about a dollar, you might be able to get a bad cup of coffee. ymmv (your mileage may vary).

Ays

J
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stoffel
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« Reply #16 on: 15 January 2009, 13:14:08 »
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I have to agree here with Bannon.
I managed to use the gun against the church and almost got a draw against him testing.
Keep in mind that Bannon had knowledge what was around and I did not even looked at his OOB.
I asked him to look at the Russians cause the russian squads were initially larger than the German ones, which he changed.
I have also added more suggestions.
Luck can be a decisive factor, but good tactics and taking risks can be decisive factors too.
I like to play agressive, that can get you luck but it can als ruin your day.
Its allways  the 50-50 chance you have win or lose.

And remember, its only a game Knipoog
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[hirr]Leto
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« Reply #17 on: 10 February 2009, 16:23:59 »
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I pre-plotted my arty strike for turn 10 so that I would catch the Soviet troops approaching the church,

You're not one who likes to follow rules given in the briefing, like the one about "NO DELAY" given three times (!) on pages 1, 3 and 4 of the briefing, eh?  Rollende ogen  :'(


I just read this, and obviously DID not read the rules... lol!

Was a bad rule IMHO anyways.

: )

Cheers!

Leto
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DrVonCool
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« Reply #18 on: 13 February 2009, 18:34:51 »
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Was a bad rule IMHO anyways.

: )

If I were your opponent, I wouldn't find that funny. Onbeslist
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Bannon DC
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« Reply #19 on: 25 February 2009, 03:46:50 »
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I pre-plotted my arty strike for turn 10 so that I would catch the Soviet troops approaching the church,

You're not one who likes to follow rules given in the briefing, like the one about "NO DELAY" given three times (!) on pages 1, 3 and 4 of the briefing, eh?  Rollende ogen  :'(


I just read this, and obviously DID not read the rules... lol!

Was a bad rule IMHO anyways.

: )

Cheers!

Leto


Well, that is a pretty lame admission.   Geschokt

After 7+ years of CM, it is a bit difficult to break new ground with scenarios (not that I claim to have broken any new ground with this one!!!  Smiley ).   That is why some scenarios I design have "special rules."  The least you can do is offer your opponent a fair game!

Lesson learned from me in the design perspective is to include a new suggestion in briefs (That is if people read them in the first place!) and that is that both players CONFIRM their understanding of any "special rules" during the set up phase.  That way on turn 10 there can be no misunderstanding.  I suggest this to all players of any scenario with any special rules.

I'm working on a two-battle operation now that has "play as they lay" rules and I had this incident in mind when I wrote the brief:

**  Players should confirm with their opponent during the set-up phase that they understand the rules and will follow them.  **

Good luck to all in future games.   Smiley

Cheers,
Bannon
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