War & Conflicts Discussions => Lybia Civil War 2011- => Topic started by: MontyB on 18 March 2011, 00:18:36



Title: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 18 March 2011, 00:18:36
Libya: UN security council backs no-fly zone and air strikes
The 15-member council voted in favour of a resolution authorising 'all necessary measures short of an occupation force'

British, French and US military aircraft are preparing to protect the Libyan rebel stronghold of Benghazi after the United Nations security council voted in favour of a no-fly zone and air strikes against Muammar Gaddafi's forces

Read More... (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/17/libya-un-security-council-air?intcmp=239)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 18 March 2011, 06:30:56
U.S. Congressmen seek quick enforcement of no-fly zone

Top U.S. lawmakers have sought quick enforcement of the U.N. Security Council resolution that effectively authorised the use of force in Libya to protect civilians from attack, specifically in the eastern city of Benghazi.

“With Qadhafi’s forces moving towards Benghazi, we must immediately work with our friends in the Arab League and in NATO to enforce this resolution and turn the tide before it is too late,” Senators John Kerry, John McCain and Joseph Lieberman, said in a joint statement.

Read More... (http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article1549654.ece)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 18 March 2011, 06:31:15
About time, maybe too late.

Ghadafi is advancing fast, and some heavy strikes on his comms nodes and logistics will be needed to stop him, apart from SEAD or DEAD and probably even some dog fighting with the Lybian planes (one of the rare setups in todays air warfare where forced into dog fighting might be a posibility).

OTOH I think his forces might think twice before affronting a lost battle, they are mainly paid mercenaries from Mali and Senegal. Taking the 2000 $ a day was fine when you were winning, but the money might look less worth when you fiind yourself at the receiving end of bomb runs.

Rattler



Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 18 March 2011, 06:36:48
I suspect it is to late, I also struggle to understand how Obama is getting patted on the back for establishing this when the driving force was France, Britain and the Arab League.


British newspapers reprimanded US President Barack Obama for dragging his feet on a move to impose a no-fly zone over Libya, passed almost three weeks after it was first mooted.
 

The 15 members of the UN Security Council on Thursday approved a resolution permitting "all necessary measures" to impose the no-fly zone, protect civilian areas and impose a ceasefire on strongman Muammar Gaddafi's military.

Britain and France had pushed for military action for some time.

Read More... (http://www.timeslive.co.za/world/article973767.ece/British-press-raps-Obama-over-Libya-no-fly-zone-delay)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 18 March 2011, 23:12:49
Lybia has - how nice to be right once :) - backed down and (at least verbally) declared a cease fire.

What are the mil options now (they seem to be going on bombing and strafing, though its not clear whether by arty or a/c)?

US cruise missiles in DEAD mission?

I am sure NATO has been monitoring the Lybian layout for a week+ now, and Sarkozy seems to be eager to go (he does not want the data of his campaign having been paid by Ghadafi become public in detail, and for him being called "a clown" is surely something he takes personally - it has long been known that the runs politics from this POV, see his comments about Zapatero or Obama (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1892502,00.html)).

If France strikes, it would probably with its Rafale-M (http://www.dutchaviationsupport.com/Articles/RafaleM-UK.pdf) 4.5 generation fighters, off the Charles de Gaulle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_aircraft_carrier_Charles_de_Gaulle_%28R91%29) carrier (its Hawkeyes have been deployed for some time now and the carrier is stationed ready to strike in the Med).

Another option would be to let the Arab nations execute the brunt of the effort, anybody has an idea what this would amount to exactly?

Rattler


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 19 March 2011, 00:09:14
Personally I can't see the British doing anything I tend to think their involvement in this is pretty much a "we want to be seen to be involved" one rather than a "lets get in there and sort it out" one, I am a little disappointed in the German response to this but I can understand the Russian and Chinese stance as they use a lot of Libyan oil and at least they didn't play politics and veto the resolution and I have to be honest the American attitude to this seems to be "we don't want to know but if it pans out well we will claim victory".

So to be perfectly blunt I suspect the early stages will be dominated by the French and then gradually the Americans will take over.

I find it very interesting the Egypt has started arming the rebels given that they will undoubtedly have to bear responsibility for this should Qaddafi pull this off.

My guess is that this will drag on for a bit until Qaddafi loses his nut and does something silly and had his military hammered from the air and then at some point Egyptian troops will form the backbone of an Arab League peacekeeping force.


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 19 March 2011, 10:44:13
Belgium government is preparing to send 6 F-16s and 1 Minehunter M923 'Narcis' to Libya.
The F-16s are currently on a training mission in Greece.

M923 (http://www.mil.be/navycomp/units/index.asp?LAN=nl&FILE=&ID=672&MENU=158&PAGE=1) (link)



Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Mad_Russian on 19 March 2011, 14:54:08
This looks like a Civil War to me. Unless Qhadafi starts killing women and children indiscriminately then I think everybody else needs to let them sort it out.

But of course that's not the way. Everybody picks sides.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 19 March 2011, 15:21:34
pictures and video of the 'shooting down' of a Libyan jetfighter

http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2011/03/19/in-beeld-straaljager-neergeschoten-in-benghazi/ (http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2011/03/19/in-beeld-straaljager-neergeschoten-in-benghazi/)

(http://www.nrc.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/straaljager3.jpg)

videos:
http://nos.nl/l/tcm:5-922475/ (http://nos.nl/l/tcm:5-922475/)
http://nos.nl/video/226821-jachtvliegtuig-stort-neer-in-benghazi.html (http://nos.nl/video/226821-jachtvliegtuig-stort-neer-in-benghazi.html)

you see one small explosion so I assume a SAM?


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Mad_Russian on 19 March 2011, 15:53:53
Scratch 1 Mig.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 19 March 2011, 17:36:15
French military jets over Libya

French military jets are preventing forces loyal to Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi from attacking the rebel-held city of Benghazi, French President Nicolas Sarkozy says.

It is believed to be the first act of intervention since the UN voted on Thursday for a no-fly zone over Libya.

Western and Arab leaders have been meeting in Paris to agree a course of action to confront Col Gaddafi.

"Our air force will oppose any aggression," Mr Sarkozy said.

Hours earlier, pro-Gaddafi forces launched an assault on the Libyan rebel stronghold of Benghazi, a BBC journalist witnessed.

However, the Libyan government has denied it is attacking.

read more... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12795971)

(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/51747000/jpg/_51747815_all_loc_libya_all_map_976.jpg)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Mad_Russian on 19 March 2011, 17:51:31

(http://www.nrc.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/straaljager3.jpg)

Is that a parachute to the left of the plane as it's about to hit the ground?

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 19 March 2011, 17:52:49
yes, that's the pilot with parachute.

in one of those videos you see him ejecting right after the hit


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Mad_Russian on 19 March 2011, 17:55:54
Is that a new kind of chute or has it not deployed properly. Never saw one that small before.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 19 March 2011, 17:56:57
Is that a new kind of chute or has it not deployed properly. Never saw one that small before.

Good Hunting.

MR


dunno, I see 2 chutes


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Mad_Russian on 19 March 2011, 18:56:56
Normally there is a large chute on the bottom and a small stabilizer chute above that. We are missing the big chute here.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 19 March 2011, 21:15:15
I am not sure I understand the way this system works, the west flies around blowing up Libyan aircraft and ground forces but what happens should the rebels advance do western air forces just become the rebel air force and what happens if rebels in their advance start shelling pro-Qaddafi areas do we swap sides?

What happens if things go wrong and the rebels can not hold their ground even with western air support, do we just shrug and walk away or will we have to commit ground forces?

There is a part of me that says this is a half arsed measure that will just serve to prolong the inevitable and perhaps we would be better off just dumping a few thousand troops on the shores of Tripoli deposing the current leadership and then buggering off to let them sort it out.


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Mad_Russian on 19 March 2011, 21:20:39
Or let them sort it out now as long as nobody is massacring women, children, non-combatants.

What other nation would let outside forces put a no fly zone over their country while they were trying to stop a civil war?

None that I can think of.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 19 March 2011, 22:45:36
Did not want to enter into this deeper as strategically, but as it becomes a *hot* thread, let me weigh in, and on various responses:

Scratch 1 Mig.

Flogger (Mig 23) alright. First thought it would have to be a Mirage (F1?) as they were designed for this ground attack role, but the picture shows clearly the rounded tail and the variable geometry wings of a Flogger, also the ejection seats are clearly Soviet (KM-1, see below).

Is that a new kind of chute or has it not deployed properly. Never saw one that small before.


in one of those videos you see him ejecting right after the hit

you see one small explosion so I assume a SAM?


From my understanding, we see three chutes in the photo: Two pilots eject (which means it must be a Mig 23 C, strange to see it in this role), and the photo shows the moment when the drouge chutes (chute #1) of both and the (#2 cute) stabilzer chute of one is visible, latter not fully deployed yet (but in the vid it can be seen it finally did, as well as the third - main - chute after pilot/seat separation).

Also, there is no SAM hit or other explosion visible, the flash you see is the initiation of the ejection sequence.

What you see is the (very old comparitively) KM-1 ejection seat in action: Not a true zero-zero seat (like its western counterpart Martin Baker) it is (if memory serves right) a so called "gunbarrel" ejection system that basically works like a shotgun charge and "fires" you out of the cockpit (often resulting in spinal injury to the pilots because of the brunt rocket propeling force employed). The KM-1M is a fully automatic rocket boosted seat featuring three modes of operation with automatic mode selection based on the aircraft altitude and speed at the time of ejection. It is a ground level ejection seat with minimum aircraft speed requirement of 130 kmph (so its a zero-130 seat).

Sequence (3 chutes system, depending on hight):

(http://www.topedge.com/panels/aircraft/sites/kraft/ejection.jpg)

Once the Pilot pulls the ejection handle the canopy cartridge ignites and jettisons the canopy which removes the interlock block. Simultaneously with the canopy jettison, a second cartridge initiates shoulder harness tightening and arm protector extension. The removal of the interlock block fires the ejection gun. The seat starts to move, engaging the Speed/Time Computer (KPA-4, PPK-2), and separating the common connector after a movement of 1 inch. The telescopic rail and first stabilizing chute deployment is initiated with a 4 inch movement. After 16 inches, leg restrain is engaged, followed by rocket motor ignition after 32 inch. If below 280 KIAS the first stabilizer chute jettisons immediately, deploying second stab-chute, arm protectors retraction, and engaging separation sequencer PPK-1. If faster then 280 KIAS, this will be accomplished after 0.1...1.6 s according to speed.Seat - pilot separation is after 1.5 s if below 10000 ft with the regular set up.

Modern ejection seats (KM-1 is a ´50s design) have artificially retarded rocket propelling fuel that burns slower and takes longer to develop max thrust (hence less injuries to pilots spines with an MB), but the KM1 has the advantage of working in split seconds and faster than the MB, probably just exactly what the guys in the vid in their high-speed-high-G descent wanted as they only ejected at the last possible moment (hats-off to that excellent timing, by the way, many would not be able to pull that stunt off, maybe we saw the automatic release system of the seat at work here).

Here the KM-1 (which is also used by the IAF in licensed production) in all its (complex) beauty:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/MiG_Ejector_Seat.jpg)

This is what it looks from the rear, as mentioned above it is a CR seat (see the interlocking system preventing the seat fired before canopy is released on the right), the springs you see are shooting the drouge chute headset from the central telescope:

(http://www.ejectionsite.com/ptvn/km1_bk.jpg)

Details on what you see in the pix here:

(http://www.topedge.com/panels/aircraft/sites/kraft/kmopen.gif)

Belgium government is preparing to send 6 F-16s and 1 Minehunter M923 'Narcis' to Libya.

Yes, and Spain will send "2 jet fighters and a submarine", whatever that means...  hdbng

Or let them sort it out now as long as nobody is massacring women, children, non-combatants.

What other nation would let outside forces put a no fly zone over their country while they were trying to stop a civil war?


With the precedence (of not SC backed) NATO intervention in Kosovo for humanitarian reasons, we can really do what we need there, except any occupation, this *because* Ghadaffi is "massacring women, children, non-combatants", the Lybian civil population, in indiscrimate bombing runs, from sea with indiscriminate sheling and on the ground with paie mercenaries after the majority of the Lybian Armed Forces left him; at least that is for what it was sold to us.

In the news we now have "110 US Cruise missile strikes - Tomahawk", 40 Rafale attacking ground convoys and ships, and Egypt crossing the border and providing the "Rebels" with MANPADs.

Looks all of my three initial ideas that formed my question have come to bear...

I am not sure I understand the way this system works, the west flies around blowing up Libyan aircraft and ground forces but what happens should the rebels advance do western air forces just become the rebel air force and what happens if rebels in their advance start shelling pro-Qaddafi areas do we swap sides?



We will not actively help the Rebels (officially), and we dont swap sides (officially) as we dont have any (officially) but are just protecting the civil polulation of the indiscriminate actions of The Mad Colonel.

What happens if things go wrong and the rebels can not hold their ground even with western air support, do we just shrug and walk away or will we have to commit ground forces?


Indeed, we shrug and walk away: No ground forces deployment (officially and legally), if the Rebels lose despite Western help thats it (but my guess is that wont happen).

Rattler


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 19 March 2011, 23:14:35
I might be wrong here but does anyone else get the impression that this is being driven by the French?

It just strikes me that they have been at the fore front of this from the start and that France opening the bombing campaign has more or less forced the rest to get things underway, I look at the British response and it is clear that they are right behind anyone doing something but are not leading (my guess is they lack the capacity to do much due to commitments in Afghanistan) and Obama just seems confused or has no real idea what the hell is going on.

When you add to this that the "coalition" still hasn't even begun to move assets into the area, it just comes across as a case of the French deciding to get things underway so that there was no way to back out of the UN resolution by sitting around "planning and building up forces" until Qaddafi had finished off the rebels.



Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Mad_Russian on 20 March 2011, 00:16:43
US newscast tonight said Libyan attack was by US lead coalition forces. I don't see US lead anything. I think we are pretty maxed out militarily already. The navy is the least stressed of our capabilities so here is something for them to do as well. So they don't feel left out.

Thanks for the explanation of the ejection seat for the Flogger Rattler. Good stuff.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 20 March 2011, 08:21:05
Gaddafi anti-aircraft guns a danger for NATO
10:39 AM Saturday Mar 19, 2011

BRUSSELS - If NATO mounts an operation to enforce a no-fly zone over Libya, it will almost certainly establish quick superiority over Muammar Gaddafi's outdated air force.

But diplomats and analysts - relying on lessons learned from NATO's intervention in the Balkans in the 1990s - caution that any attempts to launch airstrikes against Gaddafi's ground forces would be far more dangerous, and could result in serious losses.

Read More... (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10713560)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 20 March 2011, 08:22:58
Obama endorses military action to stop Gadhafi

Associated Press, Washington | Sat, 03/19/2011 12:26 PM | World A | A | A   |

President Barack Obama endorsed military action against Libya's Moammar Gadhafi after weeks of hesitation and divisions among his advisers, saying U.S. values and credibility are at stake to stop "the potential for mass murder" of innocents.
The U.S. military, which is already stretched thin by two wars and an expanding effort to assist disaster victims in Japan, would take a supporting role, Obama said Friday, with European and Arab partners in the lead. He explicitly ruled out sending American ground forces into the North African nation.
A wide range of U.S. firepower stood ready, including Navy ships and submarines capable of launching Tomahawk cruise missiles with high-explosive warheads that could destroy air defense sites and other potential targets in the earliest stages of any allied military action.

Read More... (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2011/03/19/obama-endorses-military-action-stop-gadhafi.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 20 March 2011, 08:52:32
France denies reports of losing its warplane over Libya

Sun, March 20 2011 06:32 | 85 Views

Moscow  (ANTARA News/RIA Novosti) - The French General Staff denied on Sunday media reports that one of its Air Force planes was shot down, saying that all warplanes returned to their bases.

Read More... (http://www.antaranews.com/en/news/69355/france-denies-reports-of-losing-its-warplane-over-libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 20 March 2011, 11:52:43
I might be wrong here but does anyone else get the impression that this is being driven by the French?

It just strikes me that they have been at the fore front of this from the start and that France opening the bombing campaign has more or less forced the rest to get things underway, I look at the British response and it is clear that they are right behind anyone doing something but are not leading (my guess is they lack the capacity to do much due to commitments in Afghanistan) and Obama just seems confused or has no real idea what the hell is going on.

When you add to this that the "coalition" still hasn't even begun to move assets into the area, it just comes across as a case of the French deciding to get things underway so that there was no way to back out of the UN resolution by sitting around "planning and building up forces" until Qaddafi had finished off the rebels.


don't forget that election times are coming up in France and the little emperor and his minister are low in the polls  :whistle:

@Rattler: what's your idea why the Mig went down? any idea?


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 20 March 2011, 22:18:04
Re: the Mig? No idea, maybe simple AA fire puncturing a fuel deposit in the wing (it looks like one wing is on fire), but this would not be enough for a straightforward plunge that we witnessed on vid, so my take is that its something more sensitive gotten injured either initially or as a result from fire, secondarily. Hydraulics, electricity ciruits, electronic buses, you name it. No clue really, butr any of the mentioned would be enough.

Rattler


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 21 March 2011, 07:04:48
Libya bombing called successful; endgame unclear

By ROBERT BURNS, AP National Security Writer – Sun Mar 20, 7:49 pm ET

WASHINGTON – The U.S. on Sunday claimed initial success two days into an assault on Libya that included some of the heaviest firepower in the American arsenal — long-range bombers designed for the Cold War — but American officials said Sunday it was too early to define the international military campaign's endgame.
The top U.S. military officer suggested that Libyan strongman Moammar Gadhafi might stay in power in spite of the military assault aimed at protecting civilians, calling into question the larger objective of an end to Gadhafi's erratic 42-year rule. Other top U.S. officials have suggested that a weakened and isolated Gadhafi could be ripe for a coup.

Read More... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110320/ap_on_re_us/us_us_libya_military)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 21 March 2011, 07:07:47
Gadhafi vows to fight as strikes hit his forces

By HADEEL AL-SHALCHI and RYAN LUCAS, Associated Press – 2 mins ago
TRIPOLI, Libya – Moammar Gadhafi vowed a "long war" as allied forces launched a second night of strikes on Libya, and jubilant rebels who only a day before were in danger of being crushed by his forces now boasted they would bring him down. The U.S. military said the international assault would hit any Gadhafi forces on the ground that are attacking the opposition.

Read More... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/af_libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 21 March 2011, 20:49:30
quite disturbing:

US: Operation Odyssey Dawn
UK: Operation Ellamy
France: Operation Harmattan
Canada: Operation Mobile

and they are speaking about the same operation...  hdbng ...  :danger:


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 22 March 2011, 00:02:34
And not one of those names is cool.

Odyssey Dawn sounds like a gay night club.
Ellamy and Harmattan sound like they were named after the defense ministers daughter.
Mobile is so confused it sounds like they are setting up cellphone towers.

Why not something a little more manly like Operation Kick Qadaffi's arse, or Operation Mad dogs body bag?


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 22 March 2011, 08:03:04
FLIP-FLOP: OBAMA ADMIN SENDS SIGNALS THAT GADHAFI CAN STAY IN POWER
Posted on March 20, 2011 at 1:43pm by      Emily Esfahani Smith Print »Email »
 
On the Sunday news shows this morning, the Obama administration sent signals that Libya’s Moammar Gadhafi could stay in power–despite earlier statements from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and President Barack Obama that Gadhafi must go.

On Fox News Sunday today, Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staffs, said “We’re in a situation now that what we do will depend to some degree on what he does,” Mullen told Fox News Sunday.

Read More... (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/flip-flop-obama-admin-sends-signals-that-gadhafi-can-stay-in-power/)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 22 March 2011, 18:11:57
pictures: http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/03/libya_un_airstrikes_aid_rebels.html (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/03/libya_un_airstrikes_aid_rebels.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 23 March 2011, 21:02:03
Gaddafi's son killed in kamikaze attack: reports
By MSN NZ staff
Tue Mar 22 2011 12:00:00 GMT+1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time)

Muammar Gaddafi's son has reportedly been killed in a kamikaze attack after a Libyan air force pilot crashed his jet into the colonel's barracks.

Media organisations linked to Libya's opposition have claimed Gaddafi's sixth son Khamis, 27, died of burns wounds on Saturday night after the attack on the Bab al-Aziziya compound in Tripoli.

But the Libyan government has allegedly denied reports of his death.

Read More... (http://news.msn.co.nz/article/8227460/gaddafis-son-killed-in-kamikaze-attack-reports)

This just sounds more and more bizarre.

Oh and how does this clown spell his name, is it Gaddafi, Kaddafi (sometimes with "y"s), Qaddafi or some other variant of these?



Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 23 March 2011, 21:58:04
U.S. Air Force jet crashes over Libya; crewmembers safe
By PATRICK DICKSON
Stars and Stripes
Published: March 22, 2011

KAISERSLAUTERN, Germany — Two crewmembers ejected from their U.S. Air Force F-15E Strike Eagle when the aircraft experienced equipment malfunction over northeast Libya late Monday, according to U.S. Africa Command.

Both crewmembers are safe.

A U.S. official, speaking Tuesday on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak on the record, told The Associated Press that a Marine Corps Osprey search and rescue aircraft retrieved the pilot. He said the second crewmember, a weapons officer, was recovered by Libyan rebel forces and is now in U.S. hands.

Read More... (http://www.stripes.com/news/libya/u-s-air-force-jet-crashes-over-libya-crewmembers-safe-1.138511)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 24 March 2011, 22:49:22
Fom what I gathered yesterday en "El Mundo", the guys were lucky twice: Having survived the "mechanical failure" and having landed in Rebel country, 500 yards form Ghadafi country (my guess anyway, we will see tow Lybias, as be3fore: Bangasi Lybia and Tripolis Lybia).

OTOH, if I understand right, after having  been carried around on the sholders of "Rebels" fot their (failed) effort, suddenly appears an Osprey and targets the rescuers... Several wounded by bullet injuries is the result (and they kept on cheeiring), but the pilots unharmed by luck (or bad shooting).

One pilot gone with rebels, the other one taken by US force to a carrier.

Trigger-happy guys methinks, what age were they? ROE? Recon?

Botched rescue mission basically, but luckily w/o kill of the objective. Nice exampüle of what is wrong with thaqt intervention, in general.

Rattler


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: TechAdmin on 24 March 2011, 23:41:47
In general, while I dissent with MontyB´s take (for me there is a big difference in someone strafing peacful demonstrators from his fighter jets as compared to - what every nation has and employs - a police force dispersing a manifestation, even if there result deaths in the two situations, theyre dead, but differently), this whatever-called Western operation is turning into a farce well worth of Mr. Kubrick to organize it.

Where Clemenceau said "War is too serious to leave it to the military" Kubricks Gen. Ripper has it head-on for this situation: "War is too important to leave it to politicians"...

Exactly my take in this special example:

In "Strangelove" we see all the same thing that we envision now (w/o the world destruction, of course):No objective has been defined (our president, Mr. Zapatero keeps chaning it every day: "Ghadafi has to be ousted", "Ghadafi is no target", "Ghadafi may stay" were his headlines in three days).

Also, if you look at the discrepancies (Dr. Strangelove: "Sorry, its not 100 Million but only 10 Million deaths") Germany defects, Norway pulls its planes, Italy is threatening to not give bases any longer, and our prez see above...

What is the objective? Who runs this op? What after the op? How long will it take? What will it cost? Are we in war? Is this a police actions with Tornadoes? Or what? The thingy is not clear, and also not what will happen after the no-fly zone is extablished.

From my POV we are viewing a compulsive action of Misters Sarkozy and Cameron, without having thought anything through and no idea at all where this could be leading to or where it should be leading to.

While I agree that mil action seemed to be necessary in the Lybian situation where a madman strafes demjonstrators indiscriminately from air force planes (while officially denying they even exist), I would at least have expected for SC or the national Chiefs of Staff to formulate a coherent objective/mission/execution plan, this has not happened yet (and wont for some time is my guess).

Instead of implementing a no-fly zone (allegedly now enforced) and - maybe - arming the rebels, we indeed have turned into a rebel airforce, without any sense if taken into concern that we are facing 5-6 more similar conflicts elsewhere where nobody is even thinking about requiring a SC resolution.

A farce, really, and Murphy tells us that those fail on the long run (partially this fear and lack of definition of objective and mission is why US, Germany, Norway, Denmark and Italy want out).

I foresee a divided Lybia (as in ancient times, with two capitals: Benghasi and Tripolis), a state without legal governement (like Somalia), trival clan chiefs in charge of oil wells they wont give back for nothing, etc., big disaster. OTOH a change in world plitics that others can call upon, for the first time an international colation has moved for something other than WWII or Cold war. Expect more pirates, this time in the Med.

TA


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 25 March 2011, 00:01:32
I don't see a divided Libya at all, I see this dragging on for a month or so, then the West losing interest and making a deal with Gaddafi over a "ceasefire" and as soon as the West turns its back he will wipe out the opposition and things will be back to square one.

We will then rant, rave and discuss sanctions but in the end he will get what he wants because we lack the resolve to do a job properly.

For once we have a situation where not only do we have UN support to carry out a mission, we have the Arab Leagues support to help and we have the support of a sizable chunk of the Libyan population to depose Qaddafi yet here we sit waffling on about what the mission is, who is going to lead it and do we really want to be there or trust the opposition.

We have argued for years the democracy and freedoms are the way to stabilise the middle east, we now have the people of these countries prepared to risk their lives to achieve this and the best we can do for them is an indecisive half arsed action that will achieve nothing but destroy future progress in the region.



Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 25 March 2011, 00:17:28
For once we have a situation where not only do we have UN support to carry out a mission, we have the Arab Leagues support to help and we have the support of a sizable chunk of the Libyan population to depose Qaddafi yet here we sit waffling on about what the mission is, who is going to lead it and do we really want to be there or trust the opposition.

We have argued for years the democracy and freedoms are the way to stabilise the middle east, we now have the people of these countries prepared to risk their lives to achieve this and the best we can do for them is an indecisive half arsed action that will achieve nothing but destroy future progress in the region.

You summed it up quite nicely, my friend. Your summary tells clearly why your conclusion wont happen, also:

Think stalemate:

Result will be most probably a dived Lybia with two parts that lack state recognition or the power to enforce it over all the territory, under a no-fly zone, and with war lords talking the talk.

Alternative is the arabs taking over and installing one of their puppets (which the french wont like).

Really, from your perfect analysis, what do you expect as outcome?

Rattler


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 25 March 2011, 00:36:28
The out come in my opinion comes down to whether the West grows a nut sack or not.

If we carry on the way we are I see a stalemate in the short term and a lot of dead rebels in the long term, if we actually decide on a course of action I see the whole thing being over in a week with Qaddafi swinging at the end of a rope.

The great worry is that should we sit back and do nothing then other middle eastern movements will collapse as they realise that they will get no support and in the long term the animosity towards the West will grow as the populations of these countries realise that for all of our posturing we can not be trusted and this will play into the hands of groups like al Queda.


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 29 March 2011, 07:33:56
DoD May Add Air Power in Libya Conflict
March 26, 2011
Associated Press

WASHINGTON -- Even as other nations begin taking a larger role in the international air assault mission in Libya, the Pentagon is considering adding Air Force gunships and other attack aircraft that are better suited for tangling with Libyan ground forces in contested urban areas like Misrata, a senior Pentagon official said Friday.
Navy Vice Adm. William Gortney told a Pentagon news conference that for the second consecutive day, all air missions to enforce a no-fly zone over Libya were flown by non-U.S. aircraft, and U.S. planes conducted about half the missions attacking Libyan air defenses, missile sites and ground forces. Qatar became the first Arab nation to join the effort, flying F-16s in support of the no-fly zone

Read More... (http://www.military.com/news/article/dod-may-add-air-power-in-libya-conflict.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 29 March 2011, 07:35:41
US Pulls Punches with Libya ROE

March 26, 2011
Military.com|by Bryant Jordan
 
U.S. and coalition aircraft attempting to force the Libyan army to lay down arms are pulling their punches by not attacking in the contested cities, according to a senior Defense Department official.  Vice Adm. Bill Gortney, director of the Joint Staff, said the coalition has adopted restrictive rules of engagement to avoid killing the civilians.

Read More... (http://www.military.com/news/article/us-pulls-punches-with-libya-roe.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 29 March 2011, 07:55:25
Libyan rebels close on key Gaddafi stronghold

Monday, 28 March 2011
REUTERS

Libya's rebel forces closed in today on Muammar Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte, the gateway to the western half of the country after it was targeted for the first time by international air strikes.

Witnesses in Sirte said that bombing was heard last night and then again 6.30am, but there was no fighting in the streets or signs of rebel forces. The night before dozens of fighters loyal to Gaddafi could be seen roaming the streets.

Read More... (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/libyan-rebels-close-on-key-gaddafi-stronghold-2255180.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 29 March 2011, 08:06:54
Libya Ground Operation May Start In April – Russian Intelligence
Written by: Ria Novosti

The international coalition force is planning a ground operation in Libya that could start in late April, a high-ranking Russian intelligence service source said on Friday.

“Information coming via different channels shows that NATO countries, with the active participation of Britain and the United States, are developing a plan for a ground operation on Libyan territory,” he said.

Read More... (http://www.eurasiareview.com/libya-ground-operation-may-start-in-april-russian-intelligence-25032011/)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 29 March 2011, 20:29:24
The mission for the Belgian F-16s has evolved from 'patrolling over sea' to 'combat' flights. Their homebase is still in Araxos/Greece.

March 27th was their first attack on a ground target.

No details known yet from Belgian officials but the Pentagon stated say they bombed/attacked an ammodepot at Mizdah together with Danish, Canadian and US forces today March 29th.

6 Dutch F-16s have arrived in Sardinia and are now patrolling over sea in a squadron of 4 assisted by an air-refuel plane KDC-10.


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Mad_Russian on 30 March 2011, 00:10:42
Do we have an OOB for this fight yet?

What did Denmark send to the fight?

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 30 March 2011, 00:38:10
I think the "Forces Committed" section is about the closest I have seen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Military_intervention_in_Libya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Military_intervention_in_Libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 30 March 2011, 10:52:51
I think the "Forces Committed" section is about the closest I have seen.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Military_intervention_in_Libya[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Military_intervention_in_Libya[/url])

it's not up-to-date


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 30 March 2011, 20:58:46
it's not up-to-date

Indeed not. No mention of the Spanish Submarine and how it is relentlessly fighting Ghadafi following orders (I am sure it is, no disrespect meant to the sailors, my comment is strictly political).

Saw a cartoon yesterday, *submerged* submarine with Spanish flag, loudspeaker - a text blob representing it - crackling: "Captain speaking: I have good and bad news, crew. First the good: NATO has taken command of the action against Lybia!" Cheers of "Hurra!" "How great" , etc. ... Then: "Now the bad news: NATO, that´s *us!*"  :D

Currently, the rebels had to flee Sirte and sourroundings (I have a photo journo friend who claims - being there - that even Ras Lanuf is lost again, but I suspect he might be confusing cities - has happened to him before - as Ras Lanuf seemed to be well secured by coalition air assets, also from his info), pounded by better trained (and better equipped, but if I understand everything right then there is rather a problem of leadership and training than simple a lack of arms, technology or ammo) Ghaddafi forces who include the Chad Mercs (lets remind those for a second - as Genevea Convention does not protect them they get shot when captured as we just saw live today for 300 of them on Spanish News, after interviewing all of them: According to them, they were paid around 1.000 Euros a day, got hashish and viagra for free, and were told that they were fighting Israel Mossad infiltrants, average age 19. Orders: Kill all the men and violate all the women you meet -  hence the viagra. *They* stated that, quite obviously not pressed or tortured in any way, just minutes before their execution and quite relaxed from my POV. As I know that in many nations like Germany, UK, US etc such documents are not shown on TV, I just thought I´d mention it).

AFAIK Russian intel reported that NATO is planning a ground attack to compensate for rebels shortcomings, but I seriously doubt that, it would be totally conter productive. My bet is that  - following US suggestions - the rebels will be armed and some "advisors" sent to get some order into this group of youth that dont follow orders (unacceptable in a "real" military force, but standard here, this is an uprising and not armed forces clashing...!).

My final result bet remains valid: A two-states Lybia if Ghadafi is not assasinated or leaves, and latter is unrealistic to expect as he holds the south and cannot be ousted (for geography)...

OTOH, it seems the "coalition" has reached its goal: Petrol flows again (and lost it again if indeed Ras Lanuf and sourroundings have fallen back to Ghadafi).

Rattler


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 31 March 2011, 17:14:48
All allied operations in Lybia are now controlled by S.H.A.P.E. - Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe - in Bergen/Belgium

(http://www.aco.nato.int/templates/aco_home/images/header.jpg)
http://www.aco.nato.int/ (http://www.aco.nato.int/)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Headquarters_Allied_Powers_Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Headquarters_Allied_Powers_Europe)

"Vigilia Pretium Libertatis" - Latin for "The Price of Freedom is Vigilance"

Supreme Commander of all NATO operations is currently Admiral James Stavridis: http://www.aco.nato.int/page15314820.aspx (http://www.aco.nato.int/page15314820.aspx)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 31 March 2011, 18:47:55
pictures: http://gigapica.geenstijl.nl/2011/03/odyssey_dawn.html (http://gigapica.geenstijl.nl/2011/03/odyssey_dawn.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 8 April 2011, 07:49:49
US fuel stops Gripen Libya mission
Published: 7 Apr 11 07:55 CET | Double click on a word to get a translation

The eight fighter jets are located in the US part of the Sigonella airbase on Sicily and the only fuel available it that which is used for US navy aircraft.

The Gripen were due to participate in their first mission over Libya on Thursday but this has now been delayed and test flights have been postponed.

Read More.. (http://www.thelocal.se/33058/20110407/)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 8 April 2011, 07:52:53
Will Libya stalemate force US out of its back-seat role?
Pressure rises on the Obama administration to take action in Libya. Officials weigh the humanitarian costs of holding back against the economic and political costs of action.

By Howard LaFranchi, Staff writer / April 6, 2011

Washington
As the Libya conflict appears to settle into a potentially protracted stalemate, the memory of President Obama’s demand that Muammar Qaddafi step down from power – essentially a call for regime change – is feeding a debate over what the president will or should do now to influence the outcome.

Read More... (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Foreign-Policy/2011/0406/Will-Libya-stalemate-force-US-out-of-its-back-seat-role)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 8 April 2011, 07:55:34
Libya crisis: Rebels in race to train recruits
COMMENTS (6)

By Wyre Davies
BBC News, Benghazi

At a military base in Benghazi, rebel leaders are in a desperate race to train new recruits.

They learn how to assemble and dismantle a heavy machine gun. Half an hour on this, then on to another lesson - perhaps the mechanics of firing a mortar shell with accuracy or how to handle an AK47.

This is how Libya's rebel army is being trained.

As one group of young men sits attentively on the floor of the parade ground in Benghazi, an instructor shows them how to arm and fire a mortar shell.

Read More... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12954610)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 8 April 2011, 07:57:11
APRIL 4, 2011 4:00 A.M.
Bombing by International Consensus
Libya reveals the complications of multilateralism.

In his speech last Monday, President Obama did manage to identify a few U.S. interests that could be threatened by the turmoil in Libya. But he placed far more emphasis on the moral case for action — our “responsibility to act.” And when he summarized his actions — consulting with other nations, pressing for U.N. Security Council resolutions that condemn Libya, imposing sanctions, and authorizing the use of force to protect civilians — notably missing was any effort to secure congressional approval.

Read More... (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/263700/bombing-international-consensus-brett-schaefer)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 8 April 2011, 07:58:30
NATO to intensify airstrikes over Libya
( Source: Xinhua  )         2011-April-7 06:21
??BRUSSELS, April 6 (Xinhua) -- NATO aircraft plan to fly 198 sorties over Libya on Wednesday, which would be the highest for a single day since NATO assumed full command of operations on March 31, the alliance's spokeswoman said.

??Oana Lungescu said in a statement that NATO jets plan to conduct 198 sorties, but didn't specify how many of them would be airstrikes against ground targets in Libya.

??The "operational tempo has increased" and protecting civilians in Misrata, a rebel-held city near Libyan capital Tripoli, is NATO's first priority, she said.

Read More... (http://eng.mod.gov.cn/IntlMilitary/2011-04/07/content_4236168.htm)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 8 April 2011, 07:59:54
NATO now has a special webpage for the Libyan operation...

http://natolibguides.info/libya (http://natolibguides.info/libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 8 April 2011, 08:15:52
Libyan Rebels Making Tactical Strides

April 06, 2011
Associated Press
BREGA, Libya - The Libyan rebels' battlefield tactics have come a long way since their chaotic, amateur performance just weeks before when their untrained fighters madly charged ahead and then fled just as wildly in the face of bombardment.
On a recent day on the front lines, a truck-born battery of rockets moved methodically, unleashing a whooshing volley of Grads on government forces, then advanced several hundred yards (meters) ahead to avoid counter-strikes before firing again. Forward observers with newly acquired satellite phones and GPS trackers guide the strikes

Read More... (http://www.military.com/news/article/tactics-of-libyan-rebels-improving.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 8 April 2011, 08:19:29
Gadhafi, in letter, asks Obama to end air strikes

MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press – Wed Apr 6, 7:07 pm ET

WASHINGTON – Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi appealed directly to President Barack Obama on Wednesday to end what Gadhafi called "an unjust war." He also wished Obama good luck in his bid for re-election next year.
"You are a man who has enough courage to annul a wrong and mistaken action," Gadhafi wrote in a rambling, three-page letter to Obama obtained by The Associated Press on Wednesday. "I am sure that you are able to shoulder the responsibility for that."
The White House confirmed the letter, but top officials shrugged it off.
"I don't think there is any mystery about what is expected from Mr. Gadhafi at this time," Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said, repeating U.S. and NATO demands that Gadhafi's forces pull back and cease attacks. She also renewed a demand that Gadhafi step down from power and leave the country.

Read More... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110406/ap_on_re_us/us_us_libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 8 April 2011, 08:23:57
NATO air strike hits Libya rebel convoy

Sebastian Abbot, Associated Press

Friday, April 8, 2011

(04-08) 04:00 PDT Ajdabiya, Libya --

An apparent NATO air strike slammed into a rebel combat convoy Thursday, killing at least five fighters and sharply boosting anger among anti-government forces after the second bungled mission in a week blamed on the military alliance.

The attack - outside the strategic oil port of Brega - brought fresh questions about coordination between NATO and the patchwork of rebel militias in a conflict described by a senior U.S. commander as a stalemate that could eventually require the Pentagon to reassert more power, and possibly even send in ground forces.



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/04/07/MNC21ISE9F.DTL#ixzz1IujpDx7O (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/04/07/MNC21ISE9F.DTL#ixzz1IujpDx7O)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 8 April 2011, 08:26:18
Libyan rebels and residents flee Ajdabiya

Last Modified: 08 Apr 2011 05:10

Families fled from Ajdabiya to Benghazi amid rumours that Gaddafi loyalist forces had made advances [AFP]
Groups of Libyan rebels and civilians have fled from the eastern town of Ajdabiya after a rebel armoured unit was hit by apparent NATO air strikes, allowing government troops to advance.

Families packed into cars and lorries on Thursday and joined rebel military vehicles in a convoy heading northeast towards the de facto opposition capital of Benghazi, around 160km away.

Libyan state television claimed that forces loyal to longtime leader Muammar Gaddafi had entered Ajdabiya, but residents said they could see no sign of them.

Read More... (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/2011480523612561.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 9 April 2011, 07:35:57
Ok this receives my official WTF is NATO on award of the week, I knew the Libyan rebels had tanks pictures of them are throughout the various news reports of the rebellion how the heel can NATO come up with this pitiful excuse for a screw up?

NATO: We didn’t know Libya rebels used tanks

By Slobodan Lekic - The Associated Press
Posted : Friday Apr 8, 2011 11:18:08 EDT

BRUSSELS — NATO acknowledged Friday that its airstrikes had hit rebels using tanks to fight government forces in eastern Libya, saying no one told them the rebels used tanks.

British Rear Adm. Russell Harding, the deputy commander of the NATO operation, said in the past, only forces loyal to Libyan strongman Moammar Gadhafi had used heavy armored vehicles.

Harding says the rebels and government troops are engaged in a series of advances and retreats between the eastern coastal towns of Brega and Ajdabiya, making it difficult for pilots to distinguish between them.

Read More... (http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/04/ap-nato-we-didnt-know-libya-rebels-used-tanks-040811/)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 9 April 2011, 07:44:15
And the round about continues...


'U.S. troops could go to Libya': Army general who led American forces opens the door for ground deployment

Last updated at 9:21 AM on 8th April 2011
Comments (11)
Add to My Stories

The United States may consider sending troops into Libya to aid rebel forces, according to the general who led the military mission until NATO took over.
Army General Carter Ham added the Libyan operation was largely stalemated now and was more likely to remain that way since America has transferred control to NATO.
The comments are the strongest indication yet that the U.S. army's top brass are considering the possible use of American ground troops to oust Colonel Gaddafi from the country.

Hint: general Ham, the commander of the Libyan campaign before NATO took over, has hinted that U.S. troops could deploy in Libya
Speaking yesterday, General Ham said NATO had done an effective job in an increasingly complex combat situation. But he noted that, in a new tactic, Gaddafi's forces were making airstrikes more difficult by staging military forces and vehicles near civilian areas such as schools and mosques.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1374736/US-troops-Libya-Army-General-Carter-Ham-opens-door-ground-deployment.html#ixzz1J0QLZBbI (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1374736/US-troops-Libya-Army-General-Carter-Ham-opens-door-ground-deployment.html#ixzz1J0QLZBbI)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 9 April 2011, 22:58:50
Libyan rebels face military surge on key outpost
By SEBASTIAN ABBOT , 04.09.11, 02:17 PM EDT 

AJDABIYA, Libya -- Government soldiers and rebel gunmen battled in the streets of a key front-line city Saturday after the Libyan military used shelling and guerrilla-style tactics to open its most serious push into opposition territory since international airstrikes began. At least eight people were killed, a hospital official said.

Recapturing Ajdabiya would give the Libyan military a staging ground to attack the rebels' main stronghold, Benghazi, about 100 miles (160 kilometers) farther east along the coastal highway. Moammar Gadhafi's forces were approaching Benghazi when they were driven back by the international air campaign launched last month to protect civilians and ground Gadhafi's aircraft.

Read More... (http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/04/09/general-ml-libya_8400042.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 10 April 2011, 08:47:47
Libya rebels paint tanks to avoid friendly fire

Ajdabiyah - Libyan rebels painted the roofs of their vehicles bright pink on Friday to avoid more friendly-fire casualties after a Nato air strike killed five fighters.

The strike hit a rebel tank column as it advanced on the disputed oil port of Brega on Thursday, causing a confused insurgent retreat back towards Ajdabiyah, gateway to the uprising's stronghold in Benghazi.

Nato, which is enforcing a no-fly zone in Libya aimed at protecting civilians, on Friday acknowledged that its planes were probably responsible for the friendly-fire incident, the second in a week.

Rebels heading west from Ajdabiyah towards the front against forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi said the paint on their vehicle roofs was to avoid more friendly fire.

Another Nato strike last week killed 13 rebels, including ambulance staff, on the outskirts of Brega.

"Twice, they've hit us by accident now," grumbled Belgassim Awamy, a rebel volunteer near the western entrance of Ajdabiyah.

"Nato is an alliance against the Libyan people," said Alaa Senudry, another rebel standing nearby.

'Civilian shields'

Nato says Gaddafi forces are sheltering near civilian areas, making it difficult to hit them effectively from the air.

Some rebels insisted Gaddafi aircraft had staged Thursday's attack, despite the fact that his air force has been grounded by the Nato planes.

"That was Muammar, it came from the south," said Wanis Boumarie, a former policeman turned rebel volunteer, when another rebel blamed the attack on Nato.

"Nato is extremely slow," he said, suggesting Gaddafi warplanes might have evaded the no-fly zone.

Nato has repeatedly denied rebel accusations that the pace of air strikes has reduced since the alliance took over from a coalition of the United States, France and Britain on March 31.

A group of rebels gathered on the western outskirts of Ajdabiyah later came under a bombardment which forced them back.

This correspondent heard 12 explosions, apparently from an artillery bombardment, and bursts of machinegun fire. There was no sign of an advance by Gaddafi forces.

A pick-up truck full of men with AK-47 assault rifles sped into the Ajdabiyah hospital, carrying a wounded man they said had been hit about 18km west of the town.

The bed of the pick-up truck was filled with blood-stained ammunition and bandages.


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 12 April 2011, 09:18:34
Libya: Gaddafi has accepted roadmap to peace, says Zuma

Harriet Sherwood in Tripoli and Chris McGreal in Ajdabiya
The Guardian,    Monday 11 April 2011

The Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi, has accepted a roadmap to a political solution to the deadlocked two-month-old conflict, South Africa's president, Jacob Zuma, has said in Tripoli.

Zuma, who led a five-strong African Union (AU) delegation to the Libyan capital, said he was optimistic that a settlement would be reached. The delegation, minus Zuma, who was leaving Libya on Sunday night, will travel to Benghazi today to present the plan to the rebel opposition leadership.

Referring to officials of the regime, Zuma told reporters inside Gaddafi's compound at Bab al-Azizia that "the brother leader delegation has accepted the roadmap as presented by us". He also called on Nato to stop air strikes on Libyan military targets "to give a ceasefire a chance".

Read More... (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/10/libya-african-union-gaddafi0-rebels-peace-talks)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 12 April 2011, 09:28:44
US commander: Libya mission upset some in Africa

(AP)  WASHINGTON (AP) — The military force unleashed on Libya by the U.S. and its partners upset several African nations despite the international community's widespread concerns over Moammar Gadhafi's use of force against his own people, the top U.S. commander for the continent told Congress on Tuesday.

Gen. Carter Ham, commander of the U.S. Africa Command, described the mixed reaction from the African Union to the airstrikes and enforcement of a no-fly zone over Libya, and his imperative to explain the need for swift action to perturbed nations. His comments came as the U.S. military drastically slashed the number of air and naval forces committed to the operation, now under NATO control.

Read More... (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/05/ap/politics/main20051091.shtml)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 12 April 2011, 09:30:40
Pentagon: Libya costs $608 million and counting
Updated: Monday, 11 Apr 2011, 12:44 PM CDT
Published : Monday, 11 Apr 2011, 9:30 AM CDT

By PAULINE JELINEK, Associated Press
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Pentagon said Monday the military intervention in Libya cost the U.S. an estimated $608 million in the first few of weeks of the operation. Spending is down significantly, though not as much as expected.

Defense Department spokeswoman Navy Cmdr. Kathleen Kesler said the price tag is for spending through April 4 -- or for 17 days of the mission, the most recent figure available.

Read More... (http://www.fox10tv.com/dpps/military/Pentagon-costs-in-Libya-%24608-million-and-counting_3771084)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 12 April 2011, 09:48:49
Cockpit video of a British plane destroying Libyan tanks
The British Ministry of Defense has released cockpit video of an attack by one of it's planes on Libyan army tanks in Misurata.


12:15PM BST 10 Apr 2011
Video taken from a british Royal Air Force Tornado on Friday shows the destruction of four Libyan army tanks as they were being loaded onto transporters in Misurata, 125 miles (200km) east of the capital Tripoli.

Read More... (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8441127/Cockpit-video-of-a-British-plane-destroying-Libyan-tanks.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 13 April 2011, 21:26:31
US planes back in action over Libya
Updated 41 minutes ago

The Pentagon says United States fighter jets have been conducting strikes on Libyan air defences even since NATO took command of overall operations.

US officials had previously said that America was limiting its role in the operation to support and patrolling of a no-fly zone.

"We have fighter aircraft that NATO has, that they can use as part of the air tasking order for suppression of air defence missions and they have conducted some of those missions," Pentagon spokesman Colonel Dave Lapan said.

He did not say how many tactical fighter jets were assigned to the NATO-led mission to enforce a no-fly zone over Libya, but confirmed the US aircraft had carried out a number of bombing raids against air defences since NATO assumed command of the operation on April 4.
Read More... (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/14/3190894.htm)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 14 April 2011, 00:26:27
Hmmmm....

I think I have seen that setup before: When a war goes bad (or not at all, for lack of support or material), show some pictures that demonstrate how well you are doing, either by a plane cam showing destruction of enemy vehicles or by a missile/bomb cam showing destructin of a building...

When did that scheme start, and do you guys also share the sentiment that those pix always come up when the shit hits the fan with regard to mission definition? I seem to recall that in the First Gulf War we were first "impressed" by such footage, but it has become a standard since then it seems.

Rattler
Cockpit video of a British plane destroying Libyan tanks
The British Ministry of Defense has released cockpit video of an attack by one of it's planes on Libyan army tanks in Misurata.


12:15PM BST 10 Apr 2011
Video taken from a british Royal Air Force Tornado on Friday shows the destruction of four Libyan army tanks as they were being loaded onto transporters in Misurata, 125 miles (200km) east of the capital Tripoli.

Read More... ([url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8441127/Cockpit-video-of-a-British-plane-destroying-Libyan-tanks.html[/url])




Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 14 April 2011, 01:53:56
It makes good TV for 10 mins.

But I am convinced that this "war" is at a dead end without putting at least some boots on the ground to aid the rebels, they are basically hopeless otherwise as their tactics appear to drive like hell down the road shooting in the air until someone shoots back then drive like hell in the opposite direction.

Without some direction NATO will be flying over Libya for the next 100 years.


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 18 April 2011, 08:34:40
Analysis: Libya tests limits of NATO without US

By ROBERT BURNS AP National Security Writer
Posted: 04/13/2011 01:19:47 PM PDT

WASHINGTON—President Barack Obama's insistence that NATO, not the U.S., take the lead in attacking Moammar Gadhafi's military is exposing a hard truth about an alliance that never before fought an air campaign with the U.S. in a back seat. Even against an enemy as weak as Libya, NATO needs the backbone of U.S. might to fight effectively.
It's not a matter of NATO's 27 non-U.S. member countries having too few combat aircraft, pilots or bombs. The problem instead is that while some, such as France and Britain, are willing to participate fully, others have limited their roles to noncombat action, and still others have decided not to participate militarily at all.

Read More... (http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_17836310?nclick_check=1)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 18 April 2011, 08:36:19
Gaddafi defiant despite NATO airstrikes in Tripoli
1:00 PM Friday Apr 15, 2011

Muammar Gaddafi rolled defiantly through the streets of Tripoli this morning, pumping his fists as he poked through the sun roof of an SUV - the same day that NATO airstrikes shook the city.

Gaddafi gave no sign that he's willing to relent, despite two months of civil war and mounting international pressure for him to move aside.

Instead, his loyalists pounded rebel positions in the besieged western city of Misrata with dozens of rockets for several hours, killing at least 13 people.

Read More... (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10719317)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 18 April 2011, 09:11:31
Gaddafi’s son: We will deal with terrorists first and then talk reform

By Simon Denyer, Sunday, April 17, 9:13 PM

In an interview that reflected the defiance of the Gaddafi family more than two months into its efforts to put down a rebellion supported by the United States and its allies, the 38-year-old said the world had gone to war with Libya based on nothing more than rumor and propaganda.

Read More... (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/gaddafis-son-we-will-deal-with-terrorists-first-then-we-will-talk-reform/2011/04/17/AFbTpHvD_story.html?hpid=z1)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 18 April 2011, 22:00:48
US servicemen play key roles aboard French carrier

 
BY SLOBODAN LEKIC

ASSOCIATED PRESS

ABOARD THE CHARLES DE GAULLE -- U.S. Navy Lt. Patrick Salmon is getting ready for another day at work, strapping himself into the cockpit of his strike jet and roaring off this French aircraft carrier for his daily attack mission against Moammar Gadhafi's ground forces.
He'll be launched into action by Kyle A. Caldwell, another U.S. Navy lieutenant who operates the flattop's catapult systems. When Salmon is ready to set his plane back on deck, yet a third U.S. Navy lieutenant, Philip Hoblet, will be standing by in a French rescue helicopter, hovering just off the ship's bow in case any of the returning pilots are forced to ditch into the sea.
The United States, which originally led the Libya campaign, has been steadily reducing its role over the past two weeks. On March 31, it handed over command and control of the international campaign to NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, and shortly after that it ceased all attack missions over Libya - setting of a search by NATO for more planes capable of carrying out precision strikes against Gadhafi's forces.
NATO said Friday that the U.S. still flies one-third of the Libya operation's missions. But that refers to surveillance and refueling missions, not to attack flights over Libyan territory.


Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/04/15/2169081/us-servicemen-play-key-roles-aboard.html#storylink=mirelated#ixzz1JuWhXAvN (http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/04/15/2169081/us-servicemen-play-key-roles-aboard.html#storylink=mirelated#ixzz1JuWhXAvN)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 20 April 2011, 00:34:21
Libya: Mission creak

With boots already on the ground, Nato's military involvement in the civil war in Libya is deepening step by step

The Guardian,    Wednesday 20 April 2011

The 20 British and French military advisers being sent to help the rebels in Benghazi do not constitute an occupation force. They are advisers rather than trainers, but they are boots on the ground. With every step being taken by those boots, Nato's military involvement in the civil war in Libya is deepening. Just as significant was the extension of Nato's target list to include Gaddafi's telephone exchanges and small satellite communications systems, which have ominously been labelled dual-use. The announcements in London and Brussels yesterday were the third shift since the UN resolution authorised a no-fly zone over Libya. The others were the decision to send body armour to the rebels, and Barack Obama putting his name to a letter which said there was no future for Libya with Gaddafi in power. The war aims, which Mr Obama had earlier vowed would not be broadened to include regime change, had just got broader.

Read More... (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/20/libya-mission-creak-editorial)


Title: (UPDATE)Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 21 April 2011, 05:06:31
Allies Send Military Advisers, Equipment to Toughen Libya Rebels

April 20, 2011, 8:31 PM EDT

By Patrick Donahue and Maher Chmaytelli

April 21 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. and its allies, a month into their air campaign in Libya, are being drawn more deeply into a conflict they expected would quickly topple leader Muammar Qaddafi.

Italy, France and the U.K. said they are sending military advisers and trainers to help Libya’s disorganized and poorly equipped rebels, as French President Nicolas Sarkozy called for intensifying airstrikes. The U.S. announced yesterday that it would provide $25 million in non-lethal aid from Pentagon stockpiles, including radios, body armor, boots, medicine, and prepared halal meals. Qatar, which has helped the rebels sell oil valued at more than $100 million, is supplying light weapons, Suleiman Fortia, a member of the opposition group, said April 19 in Benghazi.

Read More... (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-04-20/allies-send-military-advisers-equipment-to-toughen-libya-rebels.html)



Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 21 April 2011, 21:14:41
...and two very well recognized photographer colleagues died in a mortar attack...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1378976/British-photgrapher-Tim-Hetherington-killed-Misrata-Gaddafi-troops.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1378976/British-photgrapher-Tim-Hetherington-killed-Misrata-Gaddafi-troops.html)

Rattler


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 22 April 2011, 17:50:28
they are making a big mess of it all....

some countries want to leave the thing but they can't find enough attacking forces to replace them

groundforces? maybe, maybe not.... meanwhile civilians get their ass kicked, they die by the hundreds and the rest of the world debates....  hdbng


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 23 April 2011, 01:13:20
Yes but this seems to be a European thing, it is apparent that Europe can't do anything without a 2 year environmental impact study and 5 years of consensus meetings and an American nod of approval and the Americans are completely incapable of making a call on this one, one minute Qaddafi is not a target, next he is but he might be able to stay then he has to go.

The British seem to want to get involved but their military is so over stretched and run down that they can't do anything and the French are keen for a fight but aren't allowed to do anything due to the "committee" nature in the way the war is being run.

Quite honestly I think the best possible outcome for this would be for NATO to bugger off and turn the action over to the French and anyone else that actually wants to be there, my personal opinion is that the Libyan mission has shown NATO to be as weak and indecisive without the Americans that the Warsaw Pact was without the Russians.

It is no wonder that bin Laden and co are still on the loose.


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 23 April 2011, 07:42:09
US senator McCain calls for more aids for Libyan rebels
English.news.cn   2011-04-23 03:24:57   
 
BENGHAZI, Libya, April 22 (Xinhua) -- U.S. Senator John McCain on Friday called on the international community to deliver more aids to the rebels' "National Transitional Council" (NTC) after his one-day visit to Benghazi, Libya's eastern city which has been controlled by the rebels for more than two months.

McCain met with key members of the NTC, the U.S. special envoy to Benghazi, the British military advisor, and the injured in a hospital, according to an agenda released by an aide to the senator.

Libya has been witnessing nation-wide unrest for two months after the anti-government protests broke up in mid February, which demands an end to leader Muammar Gaddafi's 41-year rule.

Read More... (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-04/23/c_13841997.htm)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 23 April 2011, 09:29:05
pictures from Misurata: http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/04/photojournalist_chris_hondros.html (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/04/photojournalist_chris_hondros.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 2 May 2011, 05:57:44
Gadhafi offers truce as NATO strikes in Tripoli
4:58 PM Saturday Apr 30, 2011

NATO bombs struck a Libyan government complex before dawn Saturday, damaging two buildings, just as Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi called for a cease-fire and negotiations with NATO powers in a live speech on state TV.

The targeted compound included the state television building, and a Libyan official alleged the strikes were meant to kill Gadhafi. "We believe the target was the leader," said government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim.

However, the TV building was not damaged, and Gadhafi spoke from an undisclosed location.

Reporters visiting the scene of the strikes were told the damaged buildings housed a commission for women and children and offices of parliament staff. One of at least three bombs or missiles knocked down a huge part of a two-story Italian-style building. In another, doors were blown out and ceiling tiles dropped to the ground. A policeman said three people were wounded, one seriously.

Read More... (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10722558)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 2 May 2011, 21:37:22
linky unavailable.

Dont know whether this has to do with the fact that we killed Ghadaffis younger son (Safi, if I am right, got no TV anymore and it did not get reported here) and three of his grand children, but this as such has me thinking about our measures if we compare the Syrian issue and the UN mandate to what is happening in RL (and posting in another thread tomorrow, my work finally is slowing down to normal and I have time again on my hands to regroup).

Rattler


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 2 May 2011, 23:56:35
Really, the link works for me.
Try this one... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10722558 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10722558)

As far as Syria goes at the moment I am not sure they are at the same level as Gaddafi, the Syrians are not in rebellion and what ever crazy bastard is running Syria is not threatening to wipe out its opposition.

At the is point I think it is time to ratchet up pressure on Gaddafi, get rid of him and point out to the Syrians that unless things change they, Yemen and any other retarded megalomaniac in the region that does not represent the will of its people are next on the list.
 


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 3 May 2011, 08:36:58
Libyans burn UK, Italy missions after NATO strike

By KARIN LAUB and BEN HUBBARD, Associated Press – Sun May 1, 7:33 pm ET

TRIPOLI, Libya – Angry mobs attacked Western embassies and a U.N. office in Tripoli Sunday after NATO bombed Moammar Gadhafi's family compound in an attack officials said killed the leader's second youngest son and three grandchildren, ages six months to two years.
Russia said the Western alliance exceeded its U.N. mandate of protecting Libyan civilians with the strike.
The vandalized embassies were empty and nobody was reported injured, but the attacks heightened tensions between the Libyan regime and Western powers, prompting the United Nations to pull its international staff out of the capital.
The bombing did not slow the attacks by Gadhafi's forces on rebel strongholds in the western part of Libya that has remained largely under the control of the regime. The rebel port of Misrata, which has been besieged by Gadhafi's troops for two months, came under heavy shelling Sunday and at least 12 people were killed, a medic said.

Read More... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110501/ap_on_bi_ge/ml_libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 3 May 2011, 08:44:26
US says Gadhafi troops issued Viagra, raping victims
Allegation suggests troops encouraged to turn to sexual violence, envoys say

By Louis Charbonneau

updated 4/28/2011 9:31:26 PM ET

UNITED NATIONS — The U.S. envoy to the United Nations told the Security Council Thursday that troops loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi were increasingly engaging in sexual violence and some had been issued the impotency drug Viagra, diplomats said.

Several U.N. diplomats who attended a closed-door Security Council meeting on Libya told Reuters that U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice raised the Viagra issue in the context of increasing reports of sexual violence by Gadhafi's troops.
"Rice raised that in the meeting but no one responded," a diplomat said on condition of anonymity. The allegation was first reported by a British newspaper.

Read More... (http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/42809612/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 3 May 2011, 08:49:18
Hmm why do I suspect we are now preparing the public for the involvement of ground forces?

As I recall this is a tactic from Gulf War 1 where victims were trotted out before congress to describe Iraqi atrocities only to discover later that these people were basically actors that had not even been there at the time.


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 5 May 2011, 18:54:27
they won't get him down with only bombings.... he's becoming a martyr and this leads to more power...


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 10 May 2011, 22:27:25
Tripoli sites bombed, rebels claim Misrata gains

By DIAA HADID and MICHELLE FAUL, Associated Press – 22 mins ago

TRIPOLI, Libya – In a one-two punch against Moammar Gadhafi's forces, NATO warplanes struck a command center in the capital, Tripoli, on Tuesday after pounding regime targets around the besieged port of Misrata. Rebels hoped the stepped-up attacks could help extend some of their biggest advances to date, including a major outward push from Misrata.
The opposition also said it made gains along a long-deadlocked front near the eastern town of Ajdabiya.
The rebels' military spokesman, Col. Ahmed Bani, said opposition forces had pushed Gadhafi's troops out of rocket range on the west side of Misrata and dislodged them from the airport after two days of battles, raising the prospect that the siege could be broken.
Bani said rebels from Misrata and Zlitan, 35 miles (55 kilometers) west, had joined up to fight in close-range combat that rendered the regime forces' long-range rockets useless. Speaking to The Associated Press in the rebel headquarters city of Benghazi, Bani said Gadhafi's brigades were pushed about 10 miles (15 kilometers) back from Misrata's airport.

Read More... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110510/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 27 May 2011, 10:55:51
Well I mentioned not long ago that we were being prepared for boots on the ground...

As Goal Shifts in Libya, Time Constrains NATO
By ERIC SCHMITT and DAVID E. SANGER
Published: May 26, 2011

WASHINGTON — President Obama has subtly shifted Washington’s public explanation of its goals in Libya, declaring now that he wants to assure the Libyan people are “finally free of 40 years of tyranny” at the hands of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, after first stating he wanted to protect civilians from massacres.

But if toppling Colonel Qaddafi is now the more explicit goal, Mr. Obama’s European trip this week has highlighted significant tensions over how much time the NATO allies have to finish a job that is now in its third month.

Mr. Obama has urged strategic patience, expressing confidence that over time the combination of bombing, sanctions and import cutoffs will force Colonel Qaddafi from power. “Time is working against Qaddafi,” Mr. Obama said on Wednesday at a news conference in London with Prime Minister David Cameron of Britain.

Read More... (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/27/world/africa/27policy.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&hp)





Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 27 May 2011, 11:06:51
Apaches are on the MOVE!


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 28 May 2011, 22:22:44
NATO says destroyed Gaddafi compound guard towers

By Joseph Logan – Sat May 28, 2:19 pm ET

TRIPOLI (Reuters) – NATO aircraft destroyed guard towers at Muammar Gaddafi's compound in Tripoli, a NATO official said on Saturday, then staged a rare daytime air strike on the Libyan capital, stepping up pressure on him to quit.
"RAF Typhoons, along with other NATO aircraft, last night used precision-guided weapons to bring down guard towers along the walls of Colonel Gaddafi's Bab al-Aziziyah complex in the center of Tripoli," Major General John Lorimer, chief British military spokesman, said in a statement.
"Last night's action sends a powerful message to the regime's leadership and to those involved in delivering Colonel Gaddafi's attacks on civilians that that they are no longer hidden away from the Libyan people behind high walls," he said.
"The massive compound has not just been his home, but is also a major military barracks and headquarters, and lies at the heart of his network of secret police and intelligence agencies," Lorimer said. "Previous NATO attacks have hit command and control and other military facilities within the complex."

Read More... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110528/wl_nm/us_libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 28 May 2011, 22:25:05
Russia joins Western chorus for Gaddafi to go

By Joseph Logan – Fri May 27, 5:49 pm ET
TRIPOLI (Reuters) – Russia joined Western leaders on Friday in urging Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi to step down and offered to mediate his departure, in an important boost to NATO powers seeking to end his 41-year rule.
It was a striking change in tone from Kremlin criticism of NATO air strikes in Libya, which are officially intended to protect civilians in a civil war but have effectively put the West on the side of rebels seeking Gaddafi's removal.
NATO said it was preparing to deploy attack helicopters over the Arab North African state for the first time to add to the pressure on Gaddafi's forces on the ground.

Read More... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110527/wl_nm/us_libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 1 June 2011, 05:33:29
Libyan defection speculation grows, rebels battle for Brega
PTI – Fri, Apr 1, 2011

Tripoli/London, Apr 1 (PTI) Facing relentless pounding by Libyan forces, rebels today sought a conditional ceasefire even as speculation mounted that Muammar Gaddafi''s sons were willing to discuss exit strategies following fresh defections.
Forced to retreat from five strategic towns under their control following slow down by coalition air strikes, the rebels said in Benghazi that they will agree to a ceasefire if Gaddafi withdrew his forces from Libyan cities and allowed them to conduct peaceful protests.
Al Jazzera said there were fierce clashes between the rebels and Gaddafi''s forces outside the eastern oil town of Brega.
Gaddafi, whose troops have recaptured the rebel-held towns including Ras Lanuf and Bin Jawad, suffered a major setback when his Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa landed in London, saying he had defected.

Read More (http://in.news.yahoo.com/libyan-defection-speculation-grows-rebels-battle-brega-20110401-064700-170.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 3 June 2011, 04:38:36
Libya oil chief defects as NATO extends campaign

By Peter Graff and Deepa Babington – Wed Jun 1, 6:32 pm ET

TRIPOLI/ROME (Reuters) – Libya's top oil official became the latest leading figure to desert Muammar Gaddafi on Wednesday, complaining of "unbearable" violence and adding political momentum to a revolt against the leader's long rule.
In rebel-held eastern Libya, an explosion damaged a hotel used by rebels and foreigners in Benghazi, wounding one person, and police said rebel authorities believed the explosion might be linked to Gaddafi agents still operating in the east.
Abdel Hafiz Ghoga, vice chairman of the rebel National Transitional Council, told Reuters the explosion outside Tibesti hotel was believed to have been caused by a hand grenade thrown in a "desperate attempt" by Gaddafi's loyalists to sow terror.
The defection by National Oil Corp head Shokri Ghanem, who is also a former prime minister, came two days after the defections of eight army officers including five generals and those in earlier weeks of senior diplomats and former ministers.

Read More... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110601/wl_nm/us_libya_844)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 3 June 2011, 04:42:02
Thursday, June 2, 2011

Car explodes near hotel in Benghazi

By Ryan Lucas THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

BENGHAZI, Libya —  A car exploded Wednesday next to a hotel where foreign diplomats stay while visiting Benghazi, a rare attack in the Libyan rebels’ de facto capital.

Jalal al-Gallal, a rebel spokesman, said the blast caused no injuries or deaths. The burning car sent plumes of black smoke into the air.

“It’s a cowardly act,” he said, adding that rebels assume it was carried out by elements of the regime of Libyan ruler Moammar Gadhafi.

Read More... (http://telegram.com/article/20110602/NEWS/106029467/1052/rss01&source=rss)




Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 3 June 2011, 04:44:22
NATO extends Libya mission for 90 days

Published: June 1, 2011 at 6:27 PM
 
MISURATA, Libya, June 1 (UPI) -- A car bomb went off outside a major hotel in the Libyan rebel stronghold of Benghazi Wednesday, officials said. No casualties were reported.

Iran's Press TV reported the explosion occurred about 7 p.m. outside the Tibesti Hotel, where a number of Western government delegations and members of non-governmental organizations reside.

The blast immediately attracted a large, agitated crowd of people who started chanting anti-Gadhafi slogans, while police tried to secure the area, Press TV said.

The Chinese news agency Xinhua said the explosion damaged several other cars parked nearby in the VIP hotel's temporary parking lot.



Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2011/06/01/NATO-extends-Libya-mission-for-90-days/UPI-72791306913400/#ixzz1OBHtT2ub (http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2011/06/01/NATO-extends-Libya-mission-for-90-days/UPI-72791306913400/#ixzz1OBHtT2ub)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 5 June 2011, 20:22:49
NATO helicopters ratchet up pressure on Gaddafi

By Peter Graff – Sat Jun 4, 4:45 pm ET


TRIPOLI (Reuters) – British and French attack helicopters struck inside Libya for the first time overnight on Saturday, hitting targets in the oil port of Brega as NATO forces stepped up their air war against Muammar Gaddafi.
Aircraft of the NATO-led alliance also hit targets in Tripoli, where at least six powerful explosions were heard. A Reuters correspondent in the Libyan capital said aircraft could be heard overhead at the time of the blasts, before sunset.
It was not immediately clear which targets were hit.
"As long as Gaddafi continues to abuse his people, we will continue and intensify our efforts to stop him from doing so," British Foreign Secretary William Hague said at a news conference in the rebel stronghold of Benghazi in eastern Libya.
Speaking in Benghazi shortly before Hague's arrival, the head of the rebel council Mustafa Abdel Jalil welcomed NATO's deployment of helicopters.
"We welcome any measures that would expedite the departure of Gaddafi and his regime," he told reporters in Benghazi, where Hague later arrived for talks with council members.

Read More... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110604/wl_nm/us_libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 5 June 2011, 22:00:06
- snip- ... British and French attack helicopters struck inside Libya... -snip-


Brits: Apache (expected)

French: Gazelle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C3%A9rospatiale_Gazelle) (unexpected, while intitially equipped with HOT that one is *NOT* what one would call an "attack" helo, had expected to read Eurocopter Tiger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_Tiger)...??)

2006:
Quote
The Gazelle is being replaced in frontline duties by the Eurocopter Tiger, but will continue to be used for light transport and liaison roles.


Or, are those used in an AA role (there is a version AA)?

Rattler


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 6 June 2011, 03:20:30
Little bit more info...

French, British copters enter Libya war
Sat Jun 4, 2011 5:54AM


A British Apache helicopter (file photo)
NATO attack helicopters have carried out their first strikes in crisis-hit Libya to intensify the military campaign against Libyan ruler Muammar Gaddafi's regime.


"Attack helicopters under NATO command were used for the first time on 4 June 2011 in military operations over Libya as part of Operation Unified Protector," the Western military alliance said in a statement on Saturday, AFP reported.

Two Apache choppers destroyed two military installations, a radar site and an armored vehicle near a checkpoint near the Libyan city of Brega, said the captain of the HMS Ocean, a British assault ship in the Mediterranean where the aircraft were launched.

Read More... (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/183114.html)

The wording of this leads me to believe that the Gazelles were there in a support role to the Apache as I think it more likely they would have sent the Tiger if they were there in an offensive capacity.






Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 6 June 2011, 12:21:04
According to the link the French *did* send in Tigers in a mix with Gazelles (mix = 12 helos total), here in the press (as of yesterday) it was only stated Gazelles.

Just had me wondering (I am always curious, probably too much).

This time what catches my attentions is the disparate: *2* Brit attack helos vs *12* French? ANd the Brits get the headlines?

Rattler


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 6 June 2011, 18:46:42
According to the link the French *did* send in Tigers in a mix with Gazelles (mix = 12 helos total), here in the press (as of yesterday) it was only stated Gazelles.

Just had me wondering (I am always curious, probably too much).

This time what catches my attentions is the disparate: *2* Brit attack helos vs *12* French? ANd the Brits get the headlines?

Rattler


I think you have misquoted here it says 4 Apache and 12 Tiger and Gazelle helicopters have been deployed to the region not that they were on that mission, all it says about the mission is that:
"Two Apache choppers destroyed two military installations, a radar site and an armored vehicle near a checkpoint near the Libyan city of Brega, said the captain of the HMS Ocean, a British assault ship in the Mediterranean where the aircraft were launched.

Gazelle and Tiger helicopters also took part in the same operation, France's military chiefs said. "


it could have been 2 Apache's 1 Gazelle and 1 Tiger for all we know.


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 6 June 2011, 23:34:16
I stand corrected, you are right. Thanks for alerting me to my misconception.

Rattler


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 7 June 2011, 00:28:55
NATO strikes on Libya amount to land operation - Moscow
© REUTERS/ Ahmed Jadallah
14:06 04/06/2011

 
NATO's actions in Libya are gradually evolving into a land operation, Russia's foreign minister warned on Saturday.
The French armed forces website said on Saturday that British and French light aviation helicopters of the ground forces had delivered pinpoint strikes at Libya on Friday night as part of NATO's military operation.
"We know that France and Britain intend to use combat helicopters, which we see as intentional or unintentional development [of NATO's operation into] a land operation," Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said.

Read More... (http://en.rian.ru/russia/20110604/164435927.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 7 June 2011, 22:12:12
Gaddafi vows to fight on as NATO jets pound Tripoli
By Peter Graff – 2 hrs 4 mins ago

TRIPOLI (Reuters) – Waves of NATO aircraft hit Tripoli on Tuesday in the most sustained bombardment of the Libyan capital since Western forces began air strikes in March.
By Tuesday afternoon, war planes were striking different parts of the city several times an hour, hour after hour, rattling windows and sending clouds of grey smoke into the sky, a Reuters correspondent in the center of the city said.
But Muammar Gaddafi vowed on Tuesday to fight to the death.
U.S. President Barack Obama said it was only a matter of time until the Libyan leader goes.
The Libyan government attributed earlier blasts to NATO air strikes on military compounds in the capital.

Read More... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110607/wl_nm/us_libya)

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Also found this today...

Libya: Operations Updates

Here are updates on the UK Armed Forces operations in Libya to enforce United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973, as given by the Chief of the Defence Staff's Strategic Communication Officer.*

7 June 2011

Royal Air Force Tornado and Typhoon aircraft have mounted attacks on one of Colonel Gaddafi's secret police headquarters in the heart of Tripoli, and a major military installation on the outskirts of the city.

The missions were flown as part of a coordinated series of precision attacks throughout the day and night by NATO aircraft targeting intelligence and military facilities in the Libyan capital. Our jets used Paveway guided bombs to attack the military base, situated in the south-west of the city yesterday evening.

A further RAF strike was then conducted, again with Paveways, against the headquarters of the domestic intelligence service, located in central Tripoli, during the early hours of the morning. Previous RAF attacks had been successfully conducted on 16 May against secret police facilities in neighbouring buildings. Further information received since that date allowed the target attacked last night to be firmly identified as an intelligence headquarters actively engaged in the brutal repression of the civilian population and therefore to be a legitimate focus for NATO action to enforce UN Security Council Resolution 1973.

Once again, the UK and NATO have demonstrated their ability to bring a sophisticated and precise application of force to bear on those elements of Qadhafi's regime which refuse to recognise the will of the international community and continue to inflict violence on the Libyan people.


Read More... (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FactSheets/LibyaOperationsUpdates.htm)

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NATO: No ground troops in post-conflict Libya
By Mike Corder-Associated Press
Updated: 11:32 a.m. on Wednesday, June 8, 2011

 
BRUSSELS (AP) — NATO’s top official said Wednesday that the alliance won’t put troops on the ground in Libya to keep order once the civil war ends and that it will be up to the United Nations to help the North African country toward its future once Col. Moammar Gadhafi is no longer at its helm.

Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen spoke after meeting with defense ministers from the 28 members of the North Atlantic military alliance and after NATO war planes pounded the Libyan capital, Tripoli, with the heaviest bombardment of the campaign.

Read More... (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jun/8/nato-no-troops-ground-post-conflict-libya/)



Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 30 June 2011, 19:09:23
DIY Weapons of the Libyan Rebels

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/06/diy-weapons-of-the-libyan-rebels/100086/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/06/diy-weapons-of-the-libyan-rebels/100086/)

(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/libyarebel061411/s_r03_RTR2NMIB.jpg)

(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/libyarebel061411/s_r16_RTR2NJJK.jpg)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 30 June 2011, 19:56:43
...and that is nothing yet:

- They use Lee-Enfields or Mauser 98 carabines, but have no ammo, nor magazines for them
- RPGs w/o propelling
- ZSUs dismounted and sperately mounted on jeeps or whatever
- helo rocket pods, to be aimed by hand/car

Those are just a few examples, it just shows that our MBXes as the Brunei one where right on spot when it comes to salvaging enemy stores etc.

Examples and more info:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/04/libyas-rebels-fight-with-ancient-useless-weapons/ (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/04/libyas-rebels-fight-with-ancient-useless-weapons/)

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/04/love-and-doorbell-fired-rockets-wont-save-libyas-diy-rebels/ (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/04/love-and-doorbell-fired-rockets-wont-save-libyas-diy-rebels/)

War Time Inventions Pt 1 - C5 Missle Launchers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt5N6pMJMY4#ws)

Rattler


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 10 August 2011, 23:37:26
High ranking Libyan officer defects to Tunisia along with 46 other soldiers
By Bouazza Ben Bouazza, The Associated Press | The Canadian Press – Thu, 16 Jun, 2011

TUNIS, Tunisia - A Tunisian official says a lieutenant colonel is the latest Libyan officer to desert Moammar Gadhafi's army and flee across the border.
The official news agency says another 46 Libyan soldiers, including officers, also defected on Wednesday, using boats to get to the Tunisian port of Ketf.

Read More... (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/high-ranking-libyan-officer-defects-tunisia-along-46-162250325.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 10 August 2011, 23:40:18
NATO says hit military targets in Libya's Brega

By Nick Carey
TRIPOLI | Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:45pm EDT


(Reuters) - NATO said on Saturday its missiles had hit a site in Libya used by Muammar Gaddafi's forces to stockpile military supplies and vehicles, while Gaddafi's state media said 15 civilians had been killed.

A top rebel official said rebels would be ready to discuss any political settlement that did not involve Gaddafi remaining in power, although no proposals had emerged yet at talks with Gaddafi allies that were taking place through intermediaries.

The attack late on Friday was the second within hours on what NATO said were clearly identified military targets in the coastal city of Brega, around 200 km (130 miles) west of the rebel stronghold of Benghazi.

Libyan state television said a local bakery and a restaurant had been hit, wounding 20 people in addition to the 15 dead. State news agency Jana said a strike in the same area earlier on Friday had killed five civilians.

"We have no indications of any civilian casualties in connection to these strikes," a NATO official said.

Read More... (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/25/us-libya-idUSTRE7270JP20110625)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 10 August 2011, 23:44:06
Gaddafi vows to attack Europe
Lutfi Abu-Aun and Arshad Mohammed, Reuters
July 2, 2011, 10:16 pm

TRIPOLI/MADRID (Reuters) - Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi vowed to attack "homes, offices and families" in Europe in revenge for NATO airstrikes but U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said he should quit instead of issuing threats.

In a telephone address relayed to some 100,000 supporters in Tripoli's Green Square on Friday evening, Gaddafi urged NATO to halt its bombing campaign or risk seeing Libyan fighters descend on Europe "like a swarm of locusts or bees."

Gaddafi forces continued to shell the rebel-held coastal town of Misrata on Saturday, a NATO official said. Libyan TV reported that NATO bombs had caused casualties in the central region of al-Jufrah, but have no further details.

Gaddafi, who along with his son and spy chief faces an international arrest warrant for crimes against humanity, has vowed to fight to the end and branded the NATO operation a colonial aggression aimed at securing Libya's oil riches.

"Retreat, you have no chance of beating this brave people," Gaddafi said in his address broadcast on Friday.

Read More... (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/world/9773400/gaddafi-vows-to-attack-europe/)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 10 August 2011, 23:47:03
Gaddafi government says in talks, rebels say he must go
By Lamine Chikhi | Reuters – Mon, Jul 4, 2011

TRIPOLI (Reuters) - The Libyan government said on Monday it was in talks with opposition figures but there seemed little chance of a swift end to the conflict as both sides stuck to entrenched positions on the fate of Muammar Gaddafi.
The leader's son Saif al-Islam, in combative form, told a French newspaper there was no question of negotiating an end to his father's 42-year rule, while the rebels, stepping back from a hint of a concession, renewed their demand that he go now.
A spokesman for Gaddafi's administration said high-ranking government officials had been in foreign-mediated talks in Italy, Egypt and Norway with opposition figures to try to find a peace deal, and that talks were still going on.
Any talk of a possible accommodation with Gaddafi could drive a wedge into the ranks of the disparate rebel movement which sprang up in February in the wake of uprisings in neighboring Tunisia and Egypt.
Many of Gaddafi's opponents are flatly opposed to any form of concession to the veteran leader and are mistrustful of former Gaddafi associates who have defected to join the rebels.

Read More... (http://news.yahoo.com/gaddafi-stay-libya-quits-rebel-chief-073737054.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 10 August 2011, 23:49:57
Libyan rebels push towards Tripoli on two fronts
By REUTERS
07/06/2011 22:07

Rebels in Misrata push west, at least 14 fighters killed; NATO says it has no confirmation Gaddafi seeking way out.

AL-QAWALISH, Libya - Rebel fighters seized a village south of the Libyan capital and another group advanced towards Tripoli from the east on Wednesday in the biggest push in weeks towards Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's main stronghold.

Rebels firing their rifles into the air in celebration poured into the village of Al-Qawalish, just over 100 km (60miles) southwest of Tripoli, after a six-hour battle with pro-Gaddafi forces who had been holding the town.

RELATED:
Rebel leader says Gaddafi can stay in Libya if he quits
Turkey cuts diplomatic ties with Gaddafi's Libyan gov't

Rushing through an abandoned checkpoint where government troops had left tents and half-eaten bread in their rush to get away, the rebels ripped down green pro-Gaddafi flags, said a Reuters reporter in the village.

Farther north, on Libya's Mediterranean coast, rebels pushed westwards from the city of Misrata, taking them to within about 13 km of the center of the neighboring town of Zlitan, where large numbers of pro-Gaddafi forces are based.

Read More... (http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=228208&R=R3)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 10 August 2011, 23:52:50
Libya rebels regroup but battle exposes weakness
By Peter Graff – Thu Jul 14, 6:21 pm ET


AL-QAWALISH, Libya (Reuters) – Libyan rebel fighters prepared for a new offensive south of Tripoli on Thursday but tactical errors raised new questions about whether they will be able to march on the capital.
Western states are frustrated by a five-month rebel campaign that -- despite support from NATO warplanes -- has failed to overthrow Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, and some governments are now looking instead to talks as a way out of the conflict.
Gaddafi himself vowed to fight on.
In an audio speech carried on Libyan television, which was broadcasting a rally that gathered tens of thousands of supporters in the town of Al-Ajaylat, 80 km (50 miles) west of Tripoli, Gaddafi said: "I too will redeem you with my own life ... I will fight until the end."
Denouncing French President Nicolas Sarkozy, an early backer of the NATO bombing campaign, as a war criminal, Gaddafi said: "The end of NATO will be in Libya ... The end of the European Union will be in this battle."

Read More... (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110714/wl_nm/us_libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 10 August 2011, 23:56:19
Libya rebels fighting to capture eastern oil town
By Nick Carey – Sun Jul 17, 3:23 pm ET


MISRATA, Libya (Reuters) – Libyan rebel forces on Sunday entered the oil town of Brega and fought street battles there with forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, a rebel spokesman said, in the biggest offensive in eastern Libya in weeks.
"The news coming from there is there is a street war going on between Gaddafi troops and the rebels, and 127 are wounded from our side," Abdulrahman Busm, an official in the rebel National Transitional Council, said by telephone.
Brega, about 750 km (465 miles) east of Tripoli, is the site of a strategic oil terminal. The attack could signal a new rebel push westwards from their main stronghold in the east of the country after weeks of stalemate.
NATO, which has been bombing Libya for nearly four months, said its warplanes had struck a military storage facility in Tajoura, an eastern suburb of Tripoli. It said the depot contained battle tanks and armored personnel carriers.
Gaddafi is refusing to step down despite a five-month-old rebellion against his rule, a campaign of NATO air strikes, and the defections of members of his inner circle.
The slow progress of the rebel military campaign has caused strains within NATO, with some member states pressing for a negotiated solution to bring a swift end to a conflict many thought would last only a few weeks.

Read More... (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110717/wl_nm/us_libya1)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 10 August 2011, 23:58:21
Analysis: Diplomacy struggles to break Libya standoff
By William Maclean, Security Correspondent – Thu Jul 21, 1:05 pm ET

LONDON (Reuters) – Military pressure alone may not end Libya's war, but neither is diplomacy proving to be the fast track to peace that impatient Western powers had hoped.
Ineptly deployed, it may even put a brake on the deal-making a resolution will almost certainly require, analysts say.
Just how slippery the political track has become for the West emerged on Wednesday, when France, a leading nation in the coalition attacking Gaddafi's forces, said the Libyan leader could remain in the country if he relinquished power.
The idea floated by Foreign Minister Alain Juppe will be anathema to many in the rebel opposition who insist Gaddafi not only end his 41-year-old rule but also leave the country.
The notion also looks at odds with a Gaddafi arrest warrant issued by The Hague court for crimes against humanity allegedly committed by state forces against civilian demonstrators.
Perhaps most starkly of all, Juppe's remark shows how far Gaddafi's resilience has diluted Western ambitions five months after the start of an anti-government revolt and four months after NATO began air strikes.
Then, back on February 24, Juppe, echoing the aspirations of officials in many Western states, said: "I hope wholeheartedly Gaddafi is living his last moments as leader."

Read More... (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110721/wl_nm/us_libya_diplomacy)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 11 August 2011, 00:00:53
Libya tells U.N. envoy bombs must stop before talks
By Missy Ryan – Tue Jul 26, 5:34 pm ET


TRIPOLI (Reuters) – A U.N envoy trying to find a way to end the war in Libya said after talks with the prime minister in Tripoli on Tuesday that the government and the rebels remained far apart in the drive for an end to the crisis.
The government told him NATO must end air strikes before any talks could begin and that Muammar Gaddafi's role as leader was non-negotiable, though rebels and the West insist he step down.
Britain and France, carrying out most of the NATO bombing attacks, dropped their insistence that Gaddafi leave Libya as part of any settlement, in an apparent softening of their line.
A compromise appeared even more distant after Gaddafi called the rebels "traitors" and said they had no legitimacy, in a defiant audio speech aired live on Libyan television during a pro-government demonstration in Al Khums, 120 km (80 miles) east of Tripoli.
"Is there anyone who still pretends that he represents the Libyan people after millions came out and said 'no' to the traitors," Gaddafi told several thousand supporters, who waved posters of him and chanted slogans demanding he stay in power.
The U.N. envoy, Abdul Elah al-Khatib, arrived in Tripoli straight from talks with rebels in their eastern stronghold of Benghazi on Monday.
He met Prime Minister Al-Baghdadi Ali Al-Mahmoudi who said they had a productive dialogue -- but about implementing U.N. resolutions, not negotiating an end to the five-month-old conflict in which neither side seems to have the upper hand.

Read More... (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110726/wl_nm/us_libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 11 August 2011, 00:02:59
Libyan rebels say military chief killed
By Michael Georgy and Rania El Gamal – Thu Jul 28, 7:31 pm ET


NALUT/BENGHAZI, Libya (Reuters) – Libya's rebels said their military chief was shot dead on Thursday, a blow to Muammar Gaddafi's rivals as they launched a military offensive in the west and won further international recognition of their cause.
The rebels said Abdel Fattah Younes, who was for years at the heart of the Gaddafi government before defecting to become the top military leader in the rebellion in February, was shot dead by assailants after being summoned back from the battlefield.
Younes was not trusted by all of the rebel leadership due to his previous role and the circumstances of his death were unclear, but it is likely to be a severe blow to a movement that has won the backing of some 30 nations recognizing the Benghazi-based movement.
The rebels claimed to seize several towns in the Western Mountains on Thursday but they are struggling to make a serious breakthrough. With the prospects fading of a swift negotiated settlement, both sides seem prepared for the five-month war to grind on into the Muslim holy month of Ramadan in August.
A rebel official said no deal was worth talking about unless it meant Gaddafi and his powerful sons left Libya, while the veteran leader vowed to fight on "until victory, until martyrdom."

Read More... (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110728/wl_nm/us_libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 11 August 2011, 00:06:00
Libyan rebels say commander killed by allied militia
By Rania El Gamal – Fri Jul 29, 5:46 pm ET


BENGHAZI, Libya (Reuters) – Libyan rebels said on Friday the gunmen who shot dead the rebel military chief were fighters of an allied militia, in apparent confirmation of deep rifts among the forces struggling to overthrow Muammar Gaddafi.
The reports follow 24 hours of confusion over the killing of Abdel Fattah Younes, a defector from Gaddafi's inner circle, whose death deals a blow both to the rebels and their Western backers.
There had been widespread speculation as to whether Younes had been killed in an internal rebel feud or by Gaddafi forces which had penetrated the Benghazi-based movement.
The killing of such a senior figure was a setback for the rebels as they were winning broader international recognition and launching an offensive in the west, and has deepened fears that divisions within the rebel camp will prolong the conflict.
Rebel minister Ali Tarhouni told reporters in Benghazi that an allied militia leader who had gone to fetch Younes from the front line had been arrested and had confessed that his subordinates had carried out the killing.
"It was not him. His lieutenants did it," Tarhouni said, without giving details about the militia. He added that the killers were still at large.
Rebel leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil said on Thursday Younes had been recalled for questioning to Benghazi but was killed before he arrived. Relatives said they retrieved a burned and bullet-riddled body.

Read More... (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110729/wl_nm/us_libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 11 August 2011, 00:08:00
Libyan rebels say counter-attack at Zlitan repelled
By Mussab Al-Khairalla – Wed Aug 3, 10:51 am ET


MISRATA, Libya (Reuters) – Libyan rebels said on Wednesday they had fought off an attack on positions around Zlitan, contradicting government claims of victory in a town insurgents hope will pave the way for an advance on the capital.
Tuesday's assault by forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi led to fierce street battles that killed at least eight rebels, exposing the fragility of gains by rebels who are fighting on several fronts but are frequently out-gunned and out-maneuvered.
Five months into their uprising, despite winning increasing international support and enjoying the backing of NATO bombing raids on pro-Gaddafi forces, the eastern-based rebels have failed to make a breakthrough in ending Gaddafi's 41-year rule.
As diplomacy appears to have ground to a halt, rebel pushes around Zlitan and the oil town of Brega, both to the east of Tripoli, and the Western Mountains, near the border with Tunisia, have been overshadowed by reports of divisions and the slaying of their top military chief in shadowy circumstances.
General Abdel Fattah Younes's death, apparently while in the custody of fellow rebels bringing him back from the front line for unspecified questioning, raises the question of stability in the oil-rich country, even if Gaddafi, who has vowed to fight to the death, is defeated.
In recent days, rebels have inched toward Zlitan, a town 160 km (100 miles) east of Tripoli and near rebel-held Misrata, Libya's third-largest city, pushing the frontline to the eastern outskirts. Some 34 rebels have been killed in the advance.
Video footage of Tuesday's fighting, seen by Reuters, showed rebels firing rocket-propelled grenades and heavy anti-aircraft guns at Gaddafi loyalists in eastern Zlitan.

Read More... (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110803/wl_nm/us_libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 11 August 2011, 00:10:47
Gaddafi seeks Islamist allies, rebels nab fuel tanker

By Robert Birsel
BENGHAZI, Libya | Thu Aug 4, 2011 6:40pm EDT


(Reuters) - Muammar Gaddafi's son has made a bid to divide the fractious Libyan rebellion, telling a newspaper he was forging an alliance with Islamist rebels against their liberal allies.

Saif al-Islam Gaddafi's comments, in an interview with the New York Times, were a sign that the Libyan leader's camp hopes to exploit divisions among the rebels revealed by the assassination of their military commander last week.

The newspaper quoted an Islamist rebel leader who confirmed contact with Gaddafi's son. However, he pledged continued support for the opposition and denied a split with the liberal wing of the six-month-old rebellion.

The rebels scored a victory Thursday, bringing a ship with a seized cargo of government-owned fuel into their port.

The docking of the Cartagena, a tanker carrying at least 30,000 tonnes of gasoline -- a scarce commodity in government territory -- boosted an insurgency which has broad international military and diplomatic backing but is struggling to oust Gaddafi in his 41st year as leader of the 60-year-old state.

Gaddafi has so far remained in control of the capital Tripoli despite severe fuel shortages and rebel advances on three fronts, backed since March by Western air strikes.

Read More... (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/04/us-libya-idUSTRE76Q76620110804)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 11 August 2011, 00:16:03
Rebels in captured town plan push towards Tripoli
Thursday, August 11th, 2011, 7:04 pm Amman Time

BIR AL GHANAM, Libya (Reuters) - Libyan rebels who seized this town 80km south of Tripoli said on Monday they would now push on towards Muammar Qadhafi’s stronghold in the capital but expected a tough fight.

This small settlement in the desert is now the closest rebel position to Tripoli and its capture at the weekend is likely to inject some new momentum into a six-month campaign to oust Qadhafi which has been faltering over the past few weeks.

Anti-Qadhafi fighters had been camped since late June on the outskirts of Bir Al Ghanam, unable to advance. According to rebels in the town on Monday, they moved in on Saturday under cover from NATO warplanes.

They said their next target was Zawiyah, a town on the Mediterranean coast 50km west of Tripoli.

Zawiyah was the scene of two failed uprisings against Qadhafi’s rule since February. Many of the fighters in Bir Al Ghanam are from there, although a number of those who took part in the uprisings are now in prison or dead.

“Our aim is to get to Zawiyah. Once we do that Qadhafi is finished,” said rebel fighter Murad Bada, who was sitting under the shade of a tree and humming a song about Zawiyah.

Read More... (http://www.jordantimes.com/?news=40272)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 11 August 2011, 00:18:06
Tripoli says NATO strike kills dozens of civilians
By Missy Ryan – Tue Aug 9, 4:54 pm ET


ZLITAN, Libya (Reuters) – Libyan officials said on Tuesday dozens of civilians had been killed in a NATO strike on a cluster of farmhouses east of Tripoli, but the alliance said it hit a legitimate military target.
A strike causing large numbers of civilian casualties could undermine support in some NATO nations for a campaign to oust Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi that has proved much longer, bloodier and more costly than its backers had expected.
A spokesman for Gaddafi's government, who took foreign reporters to the scene of the strike, said 85 people had been killed when missiles struck farm compounds in the village of Majar, about 150 km (90 miles) east of Tripoli.
He said the dead were 33 children, 32 women and 20 men.
Standing on a pile of rubble, Moussa Ibrahim told reporters: "This is a crime beyond imagination. Everything about this place is civilian."
There was no evidence of weaponry at the farmhouses but neither was there immediately visible blood or body parts.
Government officials provided footage that appeared to show men combing through the rubble at one of the bomb sites at night retrieving human remains, including the bodies of two children.

Read More... (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110809/wl_nm/us_libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 12 August 2011, 22:05:39
Libya rebels take casualties in fight for Brega
By Robert BirselPosted 2011/08/12 at 2:14 pm EDT

AJDABIYAH, Libya, Aug. 12, 2011 (Reuters) — Rebels on the eastern front of Libya's civil war lost 11 men in the past 24 hours fighting to capture the strategic oil terminal and refinery at Brega on the Mediterranean coast, hospital sources said.


An injured rebel fighter lies on a bed at Al-Galah hospital in Benghazi August 12, 2011 after he was wounded when rebel fighters clashed with forces loyal to Libya's leader Muammar Gaddafi in Actbekat in the industrial area in Brega. REUTERS/Esam Al-Fetori
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Sources at a hospital in Ajdabiyah to the northeast said about 50 were wounded Thursday and Friday and one civilian in the all-but-deserted town was killed when a rocket fired by Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's forces hit a house.

The rebels have taken the residential zone of New Brega. But that is 10 miles from the terminal and port area.

They hope that capturing the port 466 miles east of the capital Tripoli will be a tipping point in their nearly six-month campaign to oust Gaddafi. They want to begin exporting oil from Brega as quickly as possible.

But the battle for it has been going on for months.

"There's close fighting in the oil terminal area this morning but maybe we can finish it off today," said rebel soldier Mohammad Muftah.

Read More... (http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre77a2y9-us-libya/)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 14 August 2011, 01:37:37
WRAPUP 7-Gaddafi forces, rebels fight over Zawiyah
Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:39pm BST
By Martin Veal and Missy Ryan


NEAR ZAWIYAH/TRIPOLI, Libya, Aug 13 (Reuters) - Libyan government forces and rebels clashed around the western town of Zawiyah on Saturday as the insurgents tried to push closer to the capital Tripoli.

Reporters heard gunfire and skirmishing in the coastal town, about 50 km (30 miles) west of Tripoli. The highway from the capital to the Tunisian border was blocked there.

The government confirmed fighting in the area but said a rebel attempt to capture Zawiyah had been beaten back.

Read More... (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/08/13/libya-idUKLDE77C01F20110813)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 14 August 2011, 09:54:24
Libyan rebels make major advance
Last updated 20:31 14/08/2011

Libyan rebels have fought their way into the strategic city of Zawiya west of Tripoli on in their most significant advance in months, battling snipers on rooftops and heavy shelling from Moammar Gaddafi's forces holding the city.

Zawiya, 50 kilometres from the capital, is a key target for rebels waging a new offensive launched from the mountains in the far west of Libya, an attempt to break the deadlock in combat between the two sides that has held for months in the center and east of the country.

A credible threat from the rebels in the west could strain Gaddafi's troops, which have been hammered for months by Nato airstrikes. Defending Zawiya is key for the regime but could require bringing in better trained forces who are currently ensuring its hold over its Tripoli stronghold or fighting rebels on fronts further east.

Read More... (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa/5442750/Libyan-rebels-make-major-advance)



Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 16 August 2011, 01:37:49
Rebels say Tripoli encircled; Gaddafi defiant
August 16, 2011

ZAWIYAH, Libya, Aug 16 — Libyan rebels said yesterday they had seized a second strategic town near Tripoli within 24 hours, completing the encirclement of the capital in the boldest advances of their six-month-old uprising against Muammar Gaddafi.
In a barely audible telephone call to state television overnight, a defiant and apparently isolated Gaddafi called on his followers to fight rebels he referred to as “rats.”

Gaddafi’s forces fired mortars and rockets at the coastal town of Zawiyah a day after rebels captured its centre in a thrust that severed the vital coastal highway from Tripoli to the Tunisian border, a potential turning point in the war.

Read More... (http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/world/article/rebels-say-tripoli-encircled-gaddafi-defiant/)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 16 August 2011, 23:30:49
Gaddafi forces 'fire first scud missile'
Missile launch against rebels marks first use of a ballistic weapon by Libyan troops since conflict began in March.
Last Modified: 16 Aug 2011 09:23


Al Jazeera's Zeina Khodr reports that rebels now control most of the strategically important city of Az-Zawiyah
Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's forces fired a scud missile for the first time since the uprising against his rule began six months ago, but it landed in the desert and injured no one, a US military official said.


The missile was fired on Sunday morning from a location about 80 km east of Sirte, Gaddafi's home town, and landed east of the coastal oil-rich town of Brega, the official said late on Monday.

Brega has been the main frontline in the east of the country for months. Rebels have seized the port's eastern residential areas since last week, but Gaddafi's forces still control its oil terminal, refinery and port.

Read More... (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/08/2011816828512988.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 17 August 2011, 23:32:23
Libya rebels battle for refineries in east and west
By Michael Georgy – 1 hr 47 mins ago

ZAWIYAH, Libya (Reuters) – Rebels to the west and east of Libya's increasingly isolated capital fought forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi Wednesday for control of oil facilities vital to winning the six-month-old civil war.
In Zawiyah, 50 km (30 miles) west of Tripoli, they assaulted a coastal oil refinery to try to drive the last Gaddafi forces out and tighten their noose around the capital.
A rebel spokesman said a pipeline to Tripoli was cut. There was no word on the outcome of their assault after nightfall.
In Brega, on the eastern front, rebel forces said they had suffered 18 killed and 33 wounded Tuesday and Wednesday in their battle to dislodge Gaddafi forces from the oil port and refinery, where they have been fighting for many days.
Fifteen of the rebels were killed Tuesday and three on Wednesday, said spokesman Mohammad Zawawi.
Libyan state television showed video of Gaddafi supporters at the Brega terminal Wednesday chanting the leader's name.
After 41 years of supreme power, 69-year-old Gaddafi seems isolated. Rebel forces are closing in from the west, south and east, cutting off his Tripoli stronghold on the Mediterranean shore. Gaddafi's whereabouts are not known.

Read More... (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110817/wl_nm/us_libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 19 August 2011, 13:21:25
Scud??? Wow, that must be a precision thingz then, else if it was not a SCUD-D I would count it as a desperate measure. Onlz Scud D had submunitions, the onlz waz I can see it used for in the scenario, because the HE heads with the low accuracz (just gzroscopes like the V2) cannot hit anzthing important if not launched against targets of vast siye like cities.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/theater/r-11.htm (http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/theater/r-11.htm)

Which reminds me: Do we have an OOB of Lzbian forces somewhere? Are their SCUDs of the 1965 deplozment czcle or of the 1980+ deplozment czcle? etc... Anzbodz? Range could be a give-awaz: SCUDs A, B, C 300km, D version 700km. How far from Sirte to Brega?

Rattler



Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 19 August 2011, 17:20:04
what I read is that it was a scud C


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 21 August 2011, 06:37:45
Scud??? Wow, that must be a precision thingz then, else if it was not a SCUD-D I would count it as a desperate measure. Onlz Scud D had submunitions, the onlz waz I can see it used for in the scenario, because the HE heads with the low accuracz (just gzroscopes like the V2) cannot hit anzthing important if not launched against targets of vast siye like cities.

[url]http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/theater/r-11.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/theater/r-11.htm[/url])

Which reminds me: Do we have an OOB of Lzbian forces somewhere? Are their SCUDs of the 1965 deplozment czcle or of the 1980+ deplozment czcle? etc... Anzbodz? Range could be a give-awaz: SCUDs A, B, C 300km, D version 700km. How far from Sirte to Brega?

Rattler





All I could find on short notice was this, but it is not very detailed so I will keep looking...

Libyan Army - Order of Battle
The Army is organized into armored, mechanized, artillery, and surface-to-surface missile (SSM) brigades, armored, anti-tank, artillery, and commando battalions. It also appears that there are other units (type unknown) that are probably directly subordinated to Qadhafi. Army units are well equipped with modern weapons obtained from a variety of sources. However, the army has major deficiencies because Libyan soldiers lack the technical competence to operate these systems.

The Libyan Army has undergone extensive reorganization since 1982. At least three organizations emerged that appeared to be division sized mechanized infantry units. All other Libyan Army units are independent units of brigade and battalion size. This independent structure was probably developed because of Qadhafi's paranoia concerning coups/assassinations. Qadhafi took power in a coup and he probably does not want any commander gaining too much power/influence...

Read More (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/libya/army-orbat.htm)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 22 August 2011, 01:50:54
Looks like things are reaching end game in Libya...

Gaddafi's son detained as rebels attack Tripoli

08:30 NZST Mon Aug 22 2011
by MSN NZ


Two of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's sons have been captured, according to reports, as rumours circulate that the dictator himself has fled the country.
Rebels advancing on the capital of Tripoli have entered the Green Square near Gaddafi's compound and his presidential guards have surrendered, rebel leader Seif al-Islam, of the National Transitional Council, said.

Gaddafi sons Seif al-Islam and Al-Saadi were arrested in a tourist village in western Tripoli, Al Jazeera reports.

It has also emerged that his wife and daughter fled to Tunisia on Saturday.

 There are widespread tweets in Tripoli claiming Gaddafi himself has fled, although scenes of people celebrating in the capital are mixed with crackles of gunfire, NBC correspondent Richard Engel reports via Twitter.


Read More... (http://news.msn.co.nz/article/8288446/gaddafis-son-detained-as-rebels-attack-tripoli)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: stoffel on 22 August 2011, 07:24:33
There is no accurate claim about the current OOB.
MT says that NATO have claimed 40% of the Lybian hardware to be destroyed.
There are also no reports about the Scuds, the one that has been fired should be one of the few left operational.
Same goes for much of the ATGW, AAA systems and other heavy equipment.
Many of these systems arent functioning anymore because of a lack of technical knowledge by the Libyan troops.

MT lists this as the OOB from last year:
MBT: 145 x T72, 280 x T62, 210 x T55
AIFV: 740 x BMP1, 540 x BTR50/60, 100 x OT62/64, 118 EE-11 URUTUS, 35 x M113
AC: 242 x BRDM, 370 EE-9 CASCAVEL, 100 x FIAT 6616, 200 x FIAT 6614, a few AML 90
ARTY: 130,105, 122,155, and 152 mm GUns all kinds western and soviet made.
AAA: 450 x 23mm, 30mm M53/59, and 57mm guns.
ATGW VIGILANT, SAGGER, MILAN, SPIGOT, SPiral ( on MI24.)
SAMS: SA 6/7/9/13 and CROTALE
HELI: 5 x AB 206, 8 x ALOUETTE, 16x CH47

Units with about 350.000 men:
11 armoured brigades
11 mech infantry brigades
5 infantry brigades
1 national guard brigade
40 independent tank batallions
48 independent infantry batallions
12 airboirne batallions
4 Ranger batallions
2 artillery regiments
6 SSM brigades.


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 22 August 2011, 23:42:46
Rebels take control of Tripoli
New York Times
Posted: Tue Aug 23 2011, 01:22 hrs



KAREEM FAHIM, DAVID D KIRKPATRICK & ALAN COWELL
Col Muammar Gaddafi remained at large late Monday, and loyalist forces still held pockets of the city, stubbornly resisting the rebels after their astonishingly speedy advance into the capital appeared to signal the end of the Libyan leader’s four-decade grip on power. “We do not know if he is inside or outside Libya,” Mustafa Abdel-Jalil, the chairman of the rebel government, the National Transitional Council, said of Gaddafi at a news conference in Benghazi, up until now the de facto rebel capital. He acknowledged, too, that the area of Tripoli around Gaddafi’s compound, Bab al-Aziziya, was not under rebel control.

Read More... (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rebels-take-control-of-tripoli/835639/0)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 22 August 2011, 23:45:49
The Scene In Tripoli: Rebels, Snipers, Chaos
by LOURDES GARCIA-NAVARRO
August 22, 2011


The Libyan rebels may have stormed into Tripoli on a wave of euphoria Sunday. But they were watchful and deliberate Monday as they realized that Moammar Gadhafi's armed loyalists were still a dangerous presence in many parts of the Libyan capital.

In one contested area, a rebel with a megaphone shouted warnings to his comrades: "Be careful of snipers. The city is not clear yet. Be alert."

But most rebels didn't need to be told. They were already jumpy coming into Tripoli, the grand prize in the rebels' six-month uprising against Gadhafi and his 42 years of rule.

When one Tripoli resident came out on the streets carrying a gun, he was immediately surrounded by the advancing rebels who were suspicious that the man might be a Gadhafi supporter.

The rebels demanded that people in the neighborhood vouch for him. When they did, the rebels let him go.

Read More... (http://www.npr.org/2011/08/22/139857838/the-scene-in-tripoli-rebels-snipers-chaos)



Rebels battle to secure Libyan capital
11:03PM BST 22 Aug 2011

Libyan rebels from the Tripoli Brigade moved into the policewomen's training centre in the capital city the morning after thousands marched jubilantly to capture the city from Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi.

Read More... (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/libya-video/8717139/Rebels-battle-to-secure-Libyan-capital.html)



Libya: key role played by Britain in fall of Tripoli
By Gordon Rayner, Thomas Harding and Duncan Gardham11:27PM BST 22 Aug 2011

For weeks, military and intelligence officers have been helping the rebels plan their co-ordinated attack on the capital, and Whitehall sources have disclosed that the RAF stepped up raids on Tripoli on Saturday morning in a pre-arranged plan to pave the way for the rebel advance.
MI6 officers based in the rebel stronghold of Benghazi had honed battle plans drawn up by Libya’s Transitional National Council (TNC) which were agreed 10 weeks ago.

Read More.. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8716758/Libya-key-role-played-by-Britain-in-fall-of-Tripoli.html)



Editorial: An unsettling path to a mission-creep victory in Libya
Published 22 August 2011 05:15 PM

There’s little question that the 42-year dictatorship of Col. Moammar Gadhafi is ending as a ragtag rebel movement takes control of the capital. At least two of Gadhafi’s sons have been captured, key government infrastructure is in rebel hands, and the dictator has gone into hiding. Good riddance.
Hard as it is to argue with that kind of success, much of this process should leave the American public unsettled.
Libya’s uprising sprang to life after protesters, with minimal violence, succeeded in bringing down entrenched dictatorships in Egypt and Tunisia . Recognizing that trajectory, Gadhafi showed no qualms in unleashing a bloody campaign of artillery and airborne attacks designed to quickly destroy Libya’s protest movement. The bloodshed provoked widespread international revulsion and led to an unusual Arab League appeal for NATO intervention.

Read More... (http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/editorials/20110822-editorial-unsettling-mission-creep-path-to-victory-in-libya.ece)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 22 August 2011, 23:58:51
There is no accurate claim about the current OOB.
MT says that NATO have claimed 40% of the Lybian hardware to be destroyed.
There are also no reports about the Scuds, the one that has been fired should be one of the few left operational.
Same goes for much of the ATGW, AAA systems and other heavy equipment.
Many of these systems arent functioning anymore because of a lack of technical knowledge by the Libyan troops.

MT lists this as the OOB from last year:
MBT: 145 x T72, 280 x T62, 210 x T55
AIFV: 740 x BMP1, 540 x BTR50/60, 100 x OT62/64, 118 EE-11 URUTUS, 35 x M113
AC: 242 x BRDM, 370 EE-9 CASCAVEL, 100 x FIAT 6616, 200 x FIAT 6614, a few AML 90
ARTY: 130,105, 122,155, and 152 mm GUns all kinds western and soviet made.
AAA: 450 x 23mm, 30mm M53/59, and 57mm guns.
ATGW VIGILANT, SAGGER, MILAN, SPIGOT, SPiral ( on MI24.)
SAMS: SA 6/7/9/13 and CROTALE
HELI: 5 x AB 206, 8 x ALOUETTE, 16x CH47

Units with about 350.000 men:
11 armoured brigades
11 mech infantry brigades
5 infantry brigades
1 national guard brigade
40 independent tank batallions
48 independent infantry batallions
12 airboirne batallions
4 Ranger batallions
2 artillery regiments
6 SSM brigades.





Here is the list from Global Security.org...


Major Army Equipment
Type   Country of Orogin   1990   1995   2000   2005   2010   2015   2020   2025
Tanks   Active   ...   ...   ...   ...   980   ...   ...   ...
T-54 (100mm gun)   USSR   ...   ...   ...   -   -   ...   ...   ...
T-55 (100mm gun)   USSR   ...   ...   ...   500   500   ...   ...   ...
T-62 (115mm gun)   USSR   ...   ...   ...   100   100   ...   ...   ...
T-72 (120mm gun)   USSR   ...   ...   ...   200   200   ...   ...   ...
T-90 (120mm gun)   Ukraine   ...   ...   ...   ...   180   ...   ...   ...
Tanks   Storage   ...   ...   ...   ...   1,225   ...   ...   ...
T-54 (100mm gun)   USSR   ...   ...   ...   40   40   ...   ...   ...
T-55 (100mm gun)   USSR   ...   ...   ...   1,000   1,000   ...   ...   ...
T-62 (115mm gun)   USSR   ...   ...   ...   70   70   ...   ...   ...
T-72 (120mm gun)   USSR   ...   ...   ...   115   115   ...   ...   ...
T-90 (120mm gun)   USSR   ...   ...   ...   ...   -   ...   ...   ...
Armored Vehicles      ...   ...   ...   ...   945   ...   ...   ...
M113 APC   USA   ...   ...   ...   28   28   ...   ...   ...
BRDM-2 recon   USSR   ...   ...   ...   ...   -   ...   ...   ...
BMP APC   USSR   ...   ...   ...   ...   -   ...   ...   ...
BTR-50/-60 APC   USSR   ...   ...   ...   750   750   ...   ...   ...
OT-62/-64 APC   Brazil   ...   ...   ...   67   67   ...   ...   ...
EE-9 recon   Brazil   ...   ...   ...   ...   -   ...   ...   ...
EE-11 APC   Brazil   ...   ...   ...   100   100   ...   ...   ...
Howitzers and Guns      ...   ...   ...   1,091   1,091   ...   ...   ...
122mm gun D-74   USSR   ...   ...   ...   60   60   ...   ...   ...
130mm gun M-46   USSR   ...   ...   ...   330   330   ...   ...   ...
105mm howitzer M-101   USA   ...   ...   ...   42   42   ...   ...   ...
122mm howitzer M-1938, D-30   USSR   ...   ...   ...   190   190   ...   ...   ...
122mm SPH M-1974 2S1   USSR   ...   ...   ...   130   130   ...   ...   ...
152mm SPH M-1973 2S3   USSR   ...   ...   ...   60   60   ...   ...   ...
152mm SPH M-77   USSR   ...   ...   ...   80   80   ...   ...   ...
155mm SPH Palmaris   Italy   ...   ...   ...   160   160   ...   ...   ...
155mm SPH M109   USA   ...   ...   ...   14   14   ...   ...   ...
Mortars      ...   ...   ...   500   500   ...   ...   ...
240mm   various   ...   ...   ...   ...   -   ...   ...   ...
160mm M-160   various   ...   ...   ...   24   24   ...   ...   ...
120mm M-43   various   ...   ...   ...   48   48   ...   ...   ...
82mm   various   ...   ...   ...   428   428   ...   ...   ...
Multiple Rocket Launchers      ...   ...   ...   830   830   ...   ...   ...
107mm Type 63   China   ...   ...   ...   300   300   ...   ...   ...
122mm BM-11   USSR   ...   ...   ...   200   200   ...   ...   ...
122mm BM-21   USSR   ...   ...   ...   230   230   ...   ...   ...
122mm RM-70   USSR   ...   ...   ...   100   100   ...   ...   ...
130mm M-51   USSR   ...   ...   ...   ...   -   ...   ...   ...
Surface-to-Surface Missiles      ...   ...   ...   125   45   ...   ...   ...
FROG-7   USSR   ...   ...   ...   45   45   ...   ...   ...
Scud-B   USSR   ...   ...   ...   80   -   ...   ...   ...

Antitank Guided Missiles      ...   ...   ...   2,960   2,960   ...   ...   ...
Vigilant   UK   ...   ...   ...   ...   -   ...   ...   ...
Milan   FR   ...   ...   ...   400   400   ...   ...   ...
AT-3 / AT-4 / AT-5   USSR   ...   ...   ...   2,560   2,560   ...   ...   ...
Surface-to-Air Missiles      ...   ...   ...   ...   424   ...   ...   ...
SA-7 / SA-9 / SA-13   USSR   ...   ...   ...   +++   400   ...   ...   ...
Crotale   FR   ...   ...   ...   24   24   ...   ...   ...
Anti-Aircraft Artillery      ...   ...   ...   ...   490   ...   ...   ...
14.5mm ZPU-2   USSR   ...   ...   ...   ...   100   ...   ...   ...
23mm ZSU-23/4 [SP]   USSR   ...   ...   ...   ...   250   ...   ...   ...
30mm M-53/-59 [SP]   Czech   ...   ...   ...   ...   +   ...   ...   ...
40mm L/70   Sweden   ...   ...   ...   ...   50   ...   ...   ...
57mm S-60   USSR   ...   ...   ...   ...   90   ...   ...   ...

Read More... (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/libya/army-equip.htm)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Rattler on 23 August 2011, 08:33:41
Thanks for the updates!

As long as dictatorships maz go on, in theend the people alwazs move towards "libertz", whatever that means in the context (we of the West might not like what comes out democraticallz).

Rattler


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: Koen on 23 August 2011, 16:50:13
BIG question is what will happen AFTER Ghadafi's gone.....


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 24 August 2011, 01:23:34
NATO Officials Say Campaign Effective but Not Model
By ALISTAIR MACDONALD, JOHN W. MILLER and NATHAN HODGE

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization's Libyan air campaign succeeded in helping rebel fighters on their way to Tripoli, but NATO's involvement lasted longer than politicians hoped and increased U.S. anxiety about the group's reliance on American hardware, observers say.

NATO officials say the campaign won't necessarily be seen as a template for further intervention in the Middle East. The Libyan campaign had United Nations backing, giving it a legitimacy that the U.N. isn't likely to bestow too readily on other interventions, observers say. Cash-strapped Western governments and their war-weary publics have little appetite for more costly and riskier military adventures.

Read More... (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904279004576524670451322538.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 24 August 2011, 03:26:50
Rebels overrun Gaddafi HQ, say he's "finished"
By Peter Graff – 54 mins ago

TRIPOLI (Reuters) – Libyan rebels sacked Muammar Gaddafi's Tripoli bastion, seizing weapons and smashing symbols of a 42-year dictatorship whose demise will transform Libya and send a warning to other Arab autocrats facing popular uprisings.
Gaddafi said his withdrawal from his Bab al-Aziziya headquarters in the heart of the capital was a tactical move after it had been hit by 64 NATO air strikes and he vowed "martyrdom" or victory in his fight against the alliance.
As night fell on Tuesday after a day in which rebels overran Tripoli, meeting little resistance with few casualties, heavy fighting was reported in a southern desert city, Sabha, that rebels forecast would be Gaddafi loyalists' last redoubt.

Read More... (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110824/wl_nm/us_libya)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 24 August 2011, 22:11:01
Libya's deadliest weapons not yet corralled
By DOUGLAS BIRCH - Associated Press,KIMBERLY DOZIER - Associated Press | AP – 14 hrs ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — No one can be sure who controls the Libyan government's weapons stockpiles, a stew of deadly chemicals, raw nuclear material and some 30,000 shoulder-fired rockets that officials fear could fall into terrorists' hands in the chaos of Moammar Gadhafi's downfall or afterward.
One immediate worry, U.S. intelligence and military officials say, is that Gadhafi might use the weapons to make a last stand. But officials also face the troubling prospect that the material, which was left under Gadhafi's control by a U.S.-backed disarmament pact, could be obtained by al-Qaida or other militants even after a rebel victory is secured.
The main stockpile of mustard gas and other chemicals, stored in corroding drums, is at a site southeast of Tripoli. Mustard gas can cause severe blistering and death. A cache of hundreds of tons of raw uranium yellowcake is stored at a small nuclear facility east of the capital.

Read More... (http://news.yahoo.com/libyas-deadliest-weapons-not-yet-corralled-212848414.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 26 August 2011, 05:35:26

Thirty Gaddafi fighters found dead at Tripoli camp

By Peter Graff – Thu Aug 25, 1:48 pm ET


TRIPOLI (Reuters) – More than 30 men believed to be fighters loyal to Muammar Gaddafi have been killed at a military encampment in central Tripoli and at least two were bound with plastic handcuffs, indicating they had been executed.

 A Reuters correspondent Thursday counted 30 bodies riddled with bullets in an area of the Libyan capital where there had been fighting between Gaddafi forces and rebels.

 Five of the dead were at a field hospital nearby, with one in an ambulance strapped to a gurney with an intravenous drip in his arm.

 The encampment was strewn with Gaddafi paraphernalia - caps and pictures of the Libyan leader - and Gaddafi green flags flew nearby.

Read More... (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110825/wl_nm/us_libya_killings)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 31 August 2011, 02:26:25
Rebel council gives ultimatum to Sirte, Gaddafi’s home town
By Leila Fadel, Wednesday, August 31, 12:58 PM

BENGHAZI, Libya — Libya’s rebel leadership said Tuesday that forces loyal to Moammar Gaddafi will face a crushing military assault if they fail to meet a Saturday deadline to surrender the pockets of the country that they still control.

The opposition controls Tripoli, the capital, and much of the rest of the country, but the center of Libya remains firmly in the hands of Gaddafi loyalists, effectively dividing it between east and west.

As rebels try to cement their hold and restore basic services such as water and fuel, Sirte, the longtime leader’s home town, is seen as the most important pro-Gaddafi holdout. Forces loyal to Gaddafi have reportedly retreated from towns taken by rebel fighters and have sought refuge in Sirte, 278 miles east of Tripoli, along the Mediterranean coast, and in Sabha, to the southeast of the capital.

Read More... (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/rebel-council-gives-ultimatum-to-sirte-gaddafis-home-town/2011/08/30/gIQAPKHfqJ_story.html)


Title: Re: Security council backs no fly resolution
Post by: MontyB on 18 February 2012, 21:08:23
One year after revolt, Libyans still feel insecure
By Mohammed Al Tommy and Marie-Louise Gumuchian | Reuters – Fri, Feb 17, 2012

BENGHAZI/TRIPOLI (Reuters) - Libyans took to the streets Friday to celebrate the first anniversary of the uprising that toppled Muammar Gaddafi, but some rued the insecurity and disorder that still stalk a country preparing for its first free election.
Flag-waving crowds converging on Martyrs Square in the capital Tripoli or Freedom Square in Benghazi, cradle of the revolt, had to negotiate extra checkpoints set up to stop Gaddafi loyalists from disrupting festivities.
Spontaneous celebrations began Thursday night when men, women and children emerged on the streets of Tripoli, Benghazi and other towns waving the red, black and green flags of Libya's ruling National Transitional Council (NTC) and chanting.
At Gaddafi's old Tripoli compound, now reduced to rubble, NTC flags dotted the derelict landscape. Several homeless families have moved into the few buildings still standing.

Read More...t (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/one-revolt-libyans-still-feel-insecure-110442672.html)