NCO Club: Off Topic Discussions => The Lounge - Get A Beer & Just Chatter Away => Topic started by: MontyB on 5 October 2010, 22:06:38



Title: A question of nationality...
Post by: MontyB on 5 October 2010, 22:06:38
Firstly I apologise in advance for a poorly constructed question (I am trying to be careful) but here goes...

Currently in New Zealand we are having a bit of an argument on what constitutes a "Kiwi" ie a New Zealander I realise that I can move to a country and become a citizen but will I ever be a native of that nation or will that mantle fall to the next generation or the generation after that?

I think as the world shrinks and becomes more and more entwined this question will have to answered to avoid racial conflict in the future.

In my opinion it is the third generation that can be considered the "native", I have come to the conclusion that until your parents are born in the nation you can not be considered native to that land.


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: FACman on 6 October 2010, 04:15:06
I opt for each person defining themselves, i.e; if you move to NZ because you choose to, why wouldnt you be a Kiwi, if you wish to be? I'll ask my ex-patriot American friends if they consider themselves Kiwis, they've lived there for better than 30 years now.


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: Koen on 6 October 2010, 06:28:44
difficult, depends if you look at it following the 'law' or as a personal sentiment...

I have no clue WHAT I am, I'm only interested in WHO I am

Am I Belgian? sure but with everything that's happening politically in Belgium that's maybe not a good futureproof idea
Am I a Flaming? also but what's a Flaming in the world? We have less inhabitants than NY (or close or something...  :whistle: )

So I'm ME, MYSELF & I  hihi

another thing about being SOMETHING.... people get sent back to their country because they're not NATIVE, when % are shown from prisoners they first debate on what are Belgians and what not? How many generations this or that? who decides and why?


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: MontyB on 6 October 2010, 06:44:36
I opt for each person defining themselves, i.e; if you move to NZ because you choose to, why wouldnt you be a Kiwi, if you wish to be? I'll ask my ex-patriot American friends if they consider themselves Kiwis, they've lived there for better than 30 years now.


Unfortunately that doesn't work, I lived in America for 7 years and never once considered myself American, I have a English passport but do not consider myself English I am a Kiwi no matter where in the world I live.
Essentially I think there is more to being a Kiwi (insert any nationality here) than taking the citizenship tests but I can't really define where that point is.


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: Rattler on 6 October 2010, 08:47:02
In my opinion it is the third generation that can be considered the "native", I have come to the conclusion that until your parents are born in the nation you can not be considered native to that land.

I think that depends a lot on the nation/region/province you are talking about.

Myself, e.g., living here on Mallorca, I cannot become Mallorquin: Even though by papers I am one the islanders, and myself, consider me a foreign guest nevertheless.

But, here the 2nd generation is definitely considered to be Mallorquin, maybe not in school when they are young (the kids will treat them as foreigners), but once adult they can claim for themselves tho be Spanish/Mallorquin and find the islanders also consider them to be such.

As far as cities goes I have seen the same effect and difference: While you can after a few years living in Berlin claim to be a Berliner (and the others will see and treat you like that), it won´t work for Munich, there it would have to be third generation indeed.

In my chosen German home town Kassel we were making the difference between "Kasseler" (someone from another city who just happened to live there), "Kasselaner" (born in Kassel), and finally "Kasseläner" (parents born in Kassel).

My auto-definition then varies depending on who aks me: For a Hessain, I am from Frankfurt; for a German, I am Hessian, for a Spaniard I am German, for an Asian I am European, and so on up to potential extra terrestrianss from our or another galaxy... :)

FWIW,

Rattler


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: FACman on 6 October 2010, 13:38:11
Quote
I lived in America for 7 years and never once considered myself American


The operative word here is I, as in I define myself. Being an American, I have a bias to the individual making decisions for themselves. That is not to say that others have to, or will agree with me, but Im American and will make that decision myself. As for one's birthplace defining themselves, in that we have no choice and can thank the fates. I am a New Yorker, born in New York City, a Yankee through and through, and will always claim that honor. Even when I lived in Arkansas, where some still fly the national ensign of the Confederacy, I claimed, even though looked down upon, my Yankee heritage.


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: MontyB on 6 October 2010, 20:42:07
Quote
I lived in America for 7 years and never once considered myself American


The operative word here is I, as in I define myself. Being an American, I have a bias to the individual making decisions for themselves. That is not to say that others have to, or will agree with me, but Im American and will make that decision myself. As for one's birthplace defining themselves, in that we have no choice and can thank the fates. I am a New Yorker, born in New York City, a Yankee through and through, and will always claim that honor. Even when I lived in Arkansas, where some still fly the national ensign of the Confederacy, I claimed, even though looked down upon, my Yankee heritage.


But this can not be solely a personal choice thing because it is as much about how others perceive you as it is about how you see yourself.


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: FACman on 6 October 2010, 21:30:23
Quote
But this can not be solely a personal choice thing because it is as much about how others perceive you as it is about how you see yourself.

While others may perceive me as they will, I am still who I say I am, not who they say I am. I recognise that their perceptions may have effect upon me, but I can do naught to change that, as it is who they are. Which brings me back to who gets to define each of us? I say it is I, the rest be damned.

Remember, this is my opinion, with it and a couple of Dollars you can get a cup of coffee.


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: MontyB on 6 October 2010, 22:16:36
I don't think there are any right's or wrong's in this discussion as I am only looking for opinion.

I just raised this question as it is a "current" topic here at the moment and I think it is one that is worth looking at given the rise in "nationalist" feeling around the world which I suspect will continue to happen as the world continues to shrink.


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: FACman on 6 October 2010, 23:18:37
I understand the context of your question, I guess Im not in favor of allowing ones nationalism to get in the way of the worlds enlightenment. Though I do recognise it is a recurring problem.


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: Rattler on 6 October 2010, 23:45:13
Interesting aspects, I feel I have to say a lot, but I wil first sleep a day (or a few) over it.

Rattler


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: Alan65 on 7 October 2010, 17:49:49
Some countries have more of a nationalist/racial aspect to being 'of that country'.  Anyone who wants to may become an American (you immigrate, take a test, voila: newly minted American). It's assumed you'll make an effort to 'fit in', too, so you can keep your original religion or food or but you should try to get a job and have your kids go to school etc.  I think the same goes for Canada. The same can't be said for 'Frenchman' or 'Japanese'.  Sorry, FACman, no matter how much you may want to, you can't ever be a Frenchman or a Japanese person.  I lived in Moscow and Muscovites could look at you and tell a Ukranian from a Russian (let alone an Amercian . .  .)  My Russian friends told me it was how I comported myself. ("It's your eyes")

Monty, does the current debate in NZ pertain to native vs. white/other population being "real" New Zealanders? 


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: FACman on 7 October 2010, 22:50:26
Quote
Sorry, FACman, no matter how much you may want to, you can't ever be a Frenchman or a Japanese person

Ah, but that is where you miss my point, I dont give a rats patootie what the French or the Japanese think, they dont define me, which is the root of my point. I understand, that the culture may not accept me as such, but I would refer you to my previous statement about giving a $&#t what others think. Which may be why I have few friends and dont socialize much... :whistle:


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: MontyB on 8 October 2010, 00:24:21
Some countries have more of a nationalist/racial aspect to being 'of that country'.  Anyone who wants to may become an American (you immigrate, take a test, voila: newly minted American). It's assumed you'll make an effort to 'fit in', too, so you can keep your original religion or food or but you should try to get a job and have your kids go to school etc.  I think the same goes for Canada. The same can't be said for 'Frenchman' or 'Japanese'.  Sorry, FACman, no matter how much you may want to, you can't ever be a Frenchman or a Japanese person.  I lived in Moscow and Muscovites could look at you and tell a Ukranian from a Russian (let alone an Amercian . .  .)  My Russian friends told me it was how I comported myself. ("It's your eyes")

Monty, does the current debate in NZ pertain to native vs. white/other population being "real" New Zealanders?


The current debate is based around a media personalities comments about our Governor General, essentially he asked the Prime Minister "Are you going to choose a New Zealander who looks and sounds like a New Zealander this time ... Are we going to go for someone who is more like a New Zealander this time?"

The current GG is a New Zealand and was born here but is of Indian decent.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10678313 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10678313)


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: Alan65 on 9 October 2010, 18:15:30

The current GG is a New Zealand and was born here but is of Indian decent.

[url]http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10678313[/url] ([url]http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10678313[/url])


I see.  We have that here, too.  We even have politicians who are attacked for not being "real Southerners" or "real _____" (fill in the blank).  This happens when someone runs for a State office but wasn't born/raised in the state.  It's not always a national thing but even regional discrimination.

That being said, national offices are often won by non-white/not-7th generation "Americans".  the current governor of Louisiana is an American of Indian descent.  He has had some people tout him as a possible Presidential candidate, too (until he didn't do so well in a televised speech.)


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: FACman on 9 October 2010, 18:40:05
Quote
Are we going to go for someone who is more like a New Zealander this time?"

I dont know how closely you have followed politics here in the US, but that is a common utterance of a significant portion of the right here, when refering to President Obama. Seems he just isnt 'white' enough for many.


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: MontyB on 9 October 2010, 23:15:08
Part of the reason I raised the question was that it is a topic I know affects the USA as well but to be honest it is not something that ever really comes up in New Zealand.

However there is a growing nationalist movement in this country and recently it has been fueled by the possibility of selling huge tracks of land to foreign investment and even though I am pro-immigration and foreign investment I find myself wondering whether it is a good idea to allow this on such volumes.

Personally I am of the opinion that I will not see "immigrants" as Kiwi's no matter how much the embrace the local customs.


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: FACman on 10 October 2010, 12:59:31
Quote
Personally I am of the opinion that I will not see "immigrants" as Kiwi's no matter how much the embrace the local customs

As long as you dont make the immigrant 'pay' for your feelings on the subject, I do understand the cultural aspects. I just hope we evolve enough someday, to the point where nationalism is ancient history. I think we would do so much better as a species.


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: MontyB on 11 October 2010, 05:09:37
Quote
Personally I am of the opinion that I will not see "immigrants" as Kiwi's no matter how much the embrace the local customs



As long as you dont make the immigrant 'pay' for your feelings on the subject, I do understand the cultural aspects. I just hope we evolve enough someday, to the point where nationalism is ancient history. I think we would do so much better as a species.

Why would any immigrant have to pay for my feelings on the subject, I am very pro-immigration as without it we would be a very stagnant little nation I am more than happy to see immigrants as citizens with all the rights available to "natural born" citizens but they are not "natural born" residents.

I do not have an issue with accepting differences within cultures and do believe it would be counter productive try and make everyone the same as it is our differences that make us interesting as a species.


Title: Re: A question of nationality...
Post by: FACman on 11 October 2010, 05:15:41
Sorry Monty, that was a generic 'you' I was refering to, not you personally. I can tell from your post, that the issue isnt a problem for you.