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Author Topic: WikiLeaks = Terrorists?  (Read 10177 times)
Rattler
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« on: 2 December 2010, 08:25:33 »
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Wow, the T-word found a new (of course more ample) interpretation yesterday:

After Julian Assange's international media organization, WikiLeaks, stirred up controversy once again on Sunday by making public nearly a quarter-million previously confidential American diplomatic documents, the Republican member of the US Homeland Security Committee, Peter King, said that the administration should designate WikiLeaks a "Foreign Terrorist Organization" (on Fox News, where Wayne Simmons had done the same before...).

Quote
They (WikiLeaks, R.) are engaged in terrorist activity. What they're doing is clearly aiding and abetting terrorist groups, either we're serious about this or we're not.


Along the same line, Sarah Palin wants Julian Assange to be handled (read: killed) in the same manner as a Taliban or al-Qaeda leader

Quote
Assange is not a “journalist,” any more than the “editor” of al Qaeda’s new English-language magazine Inspire is a “journalist.” He is an anti-American operative... -snip- ...Why was he not pursued with the same urgency we pursue al Qaeda and Taliban leaders?


This shows once more what is wrong with all our national politics on a wide scale, as it pictures the "idea" those politicians have of us, the electorate (we are kind of the spike in the wheel that does not allow them to do their work as they see fit) and of the democratic system as a whole: Since when is helping the electorate to control its government anything even close to Terrorism?

I have made my stance on making "secrets" public very clear before, but I also must say I suspect Mr. Assange, the Wikileaks founder and motor" wont be with us on this planet for a much longer time, establishment cannot have such rouge cannons out there (dubbing him "Terrorist" will kind of allow to take him out, wont it?).

If the truth about a governmets actions is a threat, then this government is doing something wrong. Seems that it is less interesting to prosecute the distribution blatant lies (Fox News - A Terrorist Organization?) then to demonize revealing the truth about how your actios behind curtains differ from your public presentation. Telling the truth never can be a mistake.

Had we known the truth, we would not have gone to Iraq. Had we known the truth, we would not have allowed the Spanish government to secretly torpedo the investigation into Jose Cousos death folding to US pressure, etc.

As "The Guardians" Simon Jenkins argues:
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If American spies are breaking United Nations rules by seeking the DNA biometrics of the U.N. director general, he is entitled to hear of it. British voters should know what Afghan leaders thought of British troops. American (and British) taxpayers might question, too, how most of the billions of dollars going in aid to Afghanistan simply exits the country at Kabul airport. No harm is done by high-class chatter about President Nicolas Sarkozy's vulgarity and lack of house-training, or about the British royal family. What the American embassy in London thinks about the coalition suggests not an alliance at risk but an embassy with a talent problem.


That is it, in a nutshell: We do live (in theory) in a democracy where the electorate should through its representative control its government. We cannot do so if we do not know what is going on (in our name!).

From my POV, the publication of the cables can never consitute a terrorist act by the definition the US themselves use: As defined in section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act, terrorism is primarily physical and violent. Physical violence. Destruction. Things like "The highjacking or sabotage of any conveyance (including an aircraft, vessel, or vehicle)." Or "An assassination." However, the letter of the law does further define a terrorist group as any that "endorses or espouses terrorist activity or persuades others to endorse or espouse terrorist activity or support a terrorist organization."

Does exposing the secret cables qualify as "espousing"?

WikiLeaks published the cables along with an explanation ow why and how they did it, the relevant part of it is this one:

Quote
The cables show the extent of US spying on its allies and the UN; turning a blind eye to corruption and human rights abuse in "client states"; backroom deals with supposedly neutral countries; lobbying for US corporations; and the measures US diplomats take to advance those who have access to them.

This document release reveals the contradictions between the US's public persona and what it says behind closed doors – and shows that if citizens in a democracy want their governments to reflect their wishes, they should ask to see what's going on behind the scenes.

Every American schoolchild is taught that George Washington – the country's first President – could not tell a lie. If the administrations of his successors lived up to the same principle, today's document flood would be a mere embarrassment. Instead, the US Government has been warning governments — even the most corrupt — around the world about the coming leaks and is bracing itself for the exposures.

One more important reason from my POV to publish these articles is that the cables make to us, the electorate, transparent how the government makes its biggest decisions, the decisions that cost the country most heavily in lives and money. They show the motivations - and, in some cases, duplicity - of allies on the receiving end of American courtship and foreign aid. They illuminate the diplomacy surrounding two current wars and several countries, like Pakistan and Yemen, where American military involvement is growing. I find it absurd to conclude that Americans have no right to know what is being done in their name, and that also goes for us other citizens in the worlds democracies.

OK, so leaking the cables is considered an attack by the US administration. But a figurative, ideological attack - one of solidarc criticism - isn't the same as a physical attack, or efforts to either prompt or plan such an assault. Any citizen in a democracy can (and often does!) accuse his government of being filled with cheats and liars. And some of these same citizens go on to win political office, and rightly so, it is the way demcoracy is *thought* to function. As far as the US is concerned, AFAIK the Founding fathers did not like the idea of government keeps secrets from the people. Thomas Jefferson even said that doing so is an act of treason against the people. In not any democratic Constitution I know does it state that the government has a right to keep secrets from its electorate, even if we accept that they have to sometimes (and for this have - like in Germany - complicated control mechanisms or committees installed that try to ensure that only the stuff truly need kept to be secret is kept secret from the electorate).

Now, both the State Department and politicians like King have said WikiLeak's actions have placed lives at risk. However, WikiLeaks makes no actual statements espousing - as far as my knowledge of the word goes - acts of violence against Americans or the US. Does access constitute espousal? If a website's reader is angered by its content and commits an act of terrorism because of it, does that make the site responsible? I find this hard to constitute legally.

The only problem I have with publishing those articles is that I fear that if an ambassador or military officer knows that his honest answers to questions from superiors will soon be in the public domain, he will begin to furnish dishonest answers or no answers at all. This might not really be in the public interest either.

From my POV this is not about freedom of the press or freedom of speech, but about something ultimateively way more profound and constitutional to the way we (want to) live: The right of an electorate to control what a government does in its name. WikiLeaks deserves a medal for helping us with this.

Rattler
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« Reply #1 on: 2 December 2010, 15:10:26 »
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I laughed a great deal.
Lot of the stuff is all old news.
Interesting, we have nukes in Holland...WOW!!!.

What a big surprise.
Everybody here know where they aere and who controls them Smiley
What a joke. hihi
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« Reply #2 on: 2 December 2010, 15:15:36 »
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They will kill Assange anyway (and all leakers):

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3992761,00.html

Rattler
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« Reply #3 on: 2 December 2010, 15:35:52 »
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At Chora one of the tribal leaders maintained connections with our forces.
He was an important figure for stability at Chora.
Wikileaks blew his cover, soon after that he was killed by a carbomb........

The line between news and getting people killed is very thin.
It would not surprise me the people in Chora would love to see Assanges head on a plate for diner.
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Rattler
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« Reply #4 on: 7 December 2010, 23:25:27 »
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just bunmping (and preparing a mirror for WL, also engaging in "OP Payback" for the crooks that took (a part of) my money to help themselves and dry out WL...

Mirrors:
http://savewikileaks.net/another-wikileaks-address/

I have advised PayPal that I will close the account in 48 hours if they dont take back their decision to keep the 60.000+ Euros from WL to themselves claiming that WL was "using the account to foster illegal activities". Since when is it illegal to publish facts that make my government look bad in front of my citizens watchful eyes?

While we know this will not hold in front of any court ("illegal?" In which nation? Based on what Laws? etc...) it hurts, so we will hurt back.

Stoffel, you probably cannot see it, but WL as organizatiion is fighting for what we stood as soldiers in our time (and you still), plain right of us, the citiziens, to control our politicians.

You want it the other way around? Think Nazis then, or Franco, or Putin, or any other dictator.

Would you have condemmed Wikileaks if it had had a part in WWII defeating the NS try to rule the world? Dont you think we would by now share many movies about those "great rebel heroes" if it had existed as part of the "resistance"? Of course, Hitlers hounds never thought the resistance nothing but terrorists.... Easily one can get on the wrong side of history...

THINK, mate (I know you can), dont just playbayck government (interested) statements (and double check your Chora info, I think I have bad news for you in this respect).

Rattler
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« Reply #5 on: 7 December 2010, 23:41:09 »
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Anybody feeling he needs to set up a mirror for WL, here the instructions (Tech stuff coming up!):

http://wikileaks.ch/mass-mirror.html

Rattler
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« Reply #6 on: 7 December 2010, 23:49:24 »
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just bunmping (and preparing a mirror for WL, also engaging in "OP Payback" for the crooks that took (a part of) my money to help themselves and dry out WL...

Mirrors:
http://savewikileaks.net/another-wikileaks-address/

I have advised PayPal that I will close the account in 48 hours if they dont take back their decision to keep the 60.000+ Euros from WL to themselves claiming that WL was "using the account to foster illegal activities". Since when is it illegal to publish facts that make my government look bad in front of my citizens watchful eyes?

While we know this will not hold in front of any court ("illegal?" In which nation? Based on what Laws? etc...) it hurts, so we will hurt back.

Stoffel, you probably cannot see it, but WL as organizatiion is fighting for what we stood as soldiers in our time (and you still), plain right of us, the citiziens, to control our politicians.

You want it the other way around? Think Nazis then, or Franco, or Putin, or any other dictator.

Would you have condemmed Wikileaks if it had had a part in WWII defeating the NS try to rule the world? Dont you think we would by now share many movies about those "great rebel heroes" if it had existed as part of the "resistance"? Of course, Hitlers hounds never thought the resistance nothing but terrorists.... Easily one can get on the wrong side of history...

THINK, mate (I know you can), dont just playbayck government (interested) statements (and double check your Chora info, I think I have bad news for you in this respect).

Rattler



I can see your argument but I do not entirely agree with you either, as individuals we have a responsibility to not "knowingly" carry out acts that may lead to injury of anyone else.

So if I was in possession of such information I would think twice about releasing it at a time when it may still have an effect on the people involved.

On the opposite side of the scale I agree with you that the ability to do such things is the justification we use to defend our lifestyle and that if governments do not want sensitive information released then perhaps they should act a little more responsibly themselves.
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« Reply #7 on: 8 December 2010, 00:26:23 »
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I can see your argument but I do not entirely agree with you either, as individuals we have a responsibility to not "knowingly" carry out acts that may lead to injury of anyone else.


For one, I do not see this is (has been) happening. The Spanish Ministry of Defense today stated expressively: "We have no knowledge about any attack perpetuated or a single causality caused by documents WikiLeaks published" (translation by me).

2nd, would you (I know its a rhetoric and stupid argument, but just for the sake of it) hence feel that v. Stauffenbergs attack on Hitler or Operation Walküre was - fropm the POV of the individual - mislead attempt to change the course of history? Treason? Or heroic, clear sighted defense of the German state´s political integrity? Or simply stupidity?

Methinks we have reached a point (as months ago described by me on my interpretation of events along the lines of the "Shockwave Rider") where we are suddenly and unexpectedly finding us in a kind of war we did not even imagine to find us in, and we are not prepared for it:

This moment in time will make clear for the near future whether our governments have the right to blatantly cheat on us as citizens and electorate, or whether we have the right to question their intentions and their actions "in our name", and fully so.

The outcome of this particular battle versus WL and Assange as the personified "evil" will determine where we will be standing as citizens and as democracies for the next 1-2 generations. If we are denied the right to know what is going on, what values will be sell "democracy" on in the future? On the census of votes of uninformed "voting cattle"?

From my April 2010 discourse here on this forum:

Quote
I have been following WikiLeaks for some time now, for me (of cause all governments hate it) it is an outstanding organisation that atttacks one of the main problems in our information societey, the fact that the citizisens that are in theory to control the governments in democracy do not have the information necessary to do so effectively.

What is worse, even the information gathering arms are unequally distributed: While any government agency or any big firm can find out about you anything they want whether you intend to hide it or not, you OTOH cannot find out anything about them. Access to "privileged" information in a hierarchically leveled information society has become the ultimate power tool and the new status symbol, and the legal systems in place to keep people from spying at you in fact only keep you from spying at them, the higher you get in power or money the less those legal barriers factually exist (as probably all of you sometimes have found out, when e.g. trying to find a secret telephone number, or the name of the owner of a car from the number plate: A friend in the right place, or a little cash overcomes the legal hurdles easily; now make this a powerful friend in the right place of power, or a lot of money, and you see where we stand: You are naked informatically).

This is a topic that has had me interested for a long time, much longer than computers exist in the way we use them today. The solution to it I found 1975 in John Brunners book "The Shockwave Rider" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shockwave_Rider , with "The Sheep Look Up" and "Stand on Zanzibar" those three belong into my top 10 books of all time). He proposed to make *all* information publicly accessable without barriers, as those work one-way only: Lifting the secrecy on information would give both the spied-on and the spy the same weaponry, you would be able to retrieve every bit you were interested in from top down the president to your neighbour (and they about you), the sheer mass of information and the equality in weaponry would make misuse much less a problem than todays system of privileges by level. In his book, the main character invents a "worm", a self replicating computer program (actually *this* book gave the name to todays computer worms), that releases all possible information on every computer to the public(as a result e.g. on every can you would read the *real* ingredients, etc), of cause under heavy prosectuion of the government (in the end they even allow a nuclear strike on his suspected whereabouts).  

Until today still believe this holds true and should be the way to go.


I do not plan to have my (subjectively felt) rights taken away just like that without putting up resistance. We might lose this battle for freedom of information, but if we dont even fight for it, we will have to face our childrens questions as to why we "did not do anything about it".

Rattler
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« Reply #8 on: 8 December 2010, 00:53:49 »
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OK but would you still feel the same way if an organisation was to broadcast the names of the Germans that were involved in July plot that were not arrested before the end of the war or perhaps gave an in depth write up on how the Allies were using ULTRA to break German codes?

The importance of peoples right to know must be tempered by possible consequences of informing the enemy of their mistakes while they have the time to rectify those mistakes.

I personally do not care whether WL publishes Hillary Clinton's opinion of the New Zealand Prime minister or any other world leaders but they day they start publishing the practices and routines of New Zealand soldiers in Afghanistan I will be mightly pissed.
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« Reply #9 on: 8 December 2010, 01:17:01 »
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Latter has not happened AFAIK, for neither NZ nor the rest of ISAF (or do you know anything different?).

I am mighty pissed to find out only through those cables that the investigation into the deliberate assasination of my colleague J. Couso by US tankers has been secretly stopped behind our backs in a deal between my and the US government (cancelling the order for capture and delivery vs. the soldiers in question) in order to allow my president to be received by GWB again, and all the time my governent declaring to the public that they were doing *all possible* to prosecute the perpetuators of this war crime?!

From my POV this stuff is exactly what those leaks are about, we getting cheated, and blatantly so, just so that we go vote again for the same cheaters, and now they go all haywire because such stuff comes out.

Rattler
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« Reply #10 on: 8 December 2010, 01:32:15 »
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But we already know our governments are liars and cheats and for the most part we also understand that this is a professional requirement to be a politician these days which means it doesn't matter who you elect you just get different coloured ties and the same BS, I don't need WL to prove something I already know.

Lets be realistic here there isn't a single politician on the planet that would not sell every principle they had and their first born for an extra 15 mins of power or step up the ladder.
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« Reply #11 on: 8 December 2010, 17:42:30 »
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The importance of peoples right to know must be tempered by possible consequences of informing the enemy of their mistakes while they have the time to rectify those mistakes


In this you are correct of course.

I would only like to comment on one particular example of a release that was enlightening, even though it portrayed my country in a poor light. That would be the helicopter footage of the killing of the 2 Reuters newsmen. Had that footage not been leaked, the US Govt would still be standing by the false story they put out when the incident occurred.  In this case, the US was simply trying to avoid the embarrassment associated with the truth, something I do not support. As a veteran, I have seen the evils that man will do in war first hand. Letting a little fresh air (truth) into the discussion can only help.

We can undoubtedly find examples on both sides of this issue to further ones position. I for one, tend to lean toward finding out those things my country is trying to hide from me, for less reason than the legitimate case you have made.
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« Reply #12 on: 8 December 2010, 18:39:05 »
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this is a link to an article what I read in my newspaper about Task Force 373 and the lies that cover up all the civilians and children that were killed

I think that this is one of the matters that show that there is a reason WHY the documents were revealed: because the governments lie. If they would lie less these documents weren't released since they wouldn't be worth to read.
I don't take it that the reason why Wikileaks leaked the documents was because they wanted people to get killed as result of the leaks. They were released to show that what's on TV is a big scam.

Maybe FacMan can tell us better but wasn't the Vietnam war not the same in some kind of way: everything was going fine, the allies were winning the war and blablabla.... at the end it was all the opposite. But then there was no internet and every report was easier to censor/hide/destroy.

http://afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/26/wikileaks-shines-spotlight-on-mysterious-task-force-373/

Quote
WikiLeaks shines spotlight on mysterious Task Force 373

U.S. military documents released by WikiLeaks show that a U.S. Special Forces unit in Afghanistan assigned to hunt down terrorists also was responsible for the deaths of civilians, Afghan police officers and, in one particularly bloody raid, seven children while they attended school.

The unit is called Task Force 373. It’s assigned to kill so-called “high value” targets or detain them without trial, often in night operations. The 373 follows a hit list of sorts, according to The New York Times and The Guardian newspaper in England. (WikiLeaks gave The New York Times, The Guardian and German magazine Der Spiegel early access to the documents before posting them.)

The list is referred to as Jpel, which supposedly stands for “joint prioritized effects list.”  Der Spiegel reported in January that the Task Force was active in Kunduz in northern Afghanistan.

“U.S. special forces with Task Force 373 are sent out on operations on a nightly basis,” it wrote. “In addition to taking suspected Taliban extremists prisoner, they have many times been responsible for eliminating wanted Taliban leaders.”

The documents published by WikiLeaks cover controversial operations by Task Force 373.  Among the incidents:

– Seeking Taliban commander  Qarl Ur-Rahman in a valley near Jalalabad, Task Force 373 became engaged in a firefight in June 2007 at night. According to a document linked on the New York Times and Guardian sites, “The original mission was aborted…” and the task force later filed a report which said “7 X ANP NIA, 4 X WIA” resulted. That means seven Afghan police officers had been killed. Read the document

– Later that month, the Task Force launched am operation to kill or capture  senior al Qaeda figure  Abu Laith al-Libi in Paktika province, close to the border with Afghanistan. They failed to find Libi, who was killed several months later. During the operation, a missile attack was launched on a mosque compound where several suspects were thought to be, but the action resulted in the deaths of 7 children. The follow-up report said “An elder who was at the Mosque stated that the children were held against their will and were intentionally kept inside.” Read the document, reproduced by the New York Times

U.S. Special Operations missions in Afghanistan have been criticized by human rights groups.

“You have people going in with a kill list and the public accountability simply doesn’t exist,” said Sarah Knuckey, director of the Project on Extrajudicial Executions at the Center for Human Rights and Global Justice at the New York University School of Law. She went to Afghanistan in 2008 to interview dozens of civilians who had complained of indiscriminate military attacks.

“We didn’t hear specifically the name 373, but it’s clear, judging by what’s been on WikiLeaks – if [WikiLeaks’] information is correct – that what civilians told us is true,” she told CNN.

Quote
Summary Five American rockets destroyed a compound in Paktika Province in an attempt to kill a top commander of Al Qaeda. Task Force 373, a classified Special Operations unit of Army Delta Force operatives and members of the Navy Seals, was sent to finish the job. They did not find the commander. But they did find that seven children had been killed in the strike. While American military officials tried to explain that there had been no indications that women and children were in the compound, anger spread across the region.


and the Wikileaks leaked AAR:
Quote
172100Z TF 373 OBJ Lane
NOTE: The following information (TF-373 and HIMARS) is Classified Secret / NOFORN. The knowledge that TF-373 conducted a HIMARS strike must be kept protected. All other information below is classified Secret / REL ISAF.

(S) Mission: O/O SOTF conducts kinetic strike followed with HAF raid to kill/capture ABU LAYTH AL LIBI on NAI 2.

(S)Target: Abu Layth Al Libi is a senior al-Qaida military commander, Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) leader. He is based in Mir Ali, Pakistan and runs training camps throughout North Waziristan. Collection over the past week indicates a concentration of Arabs IVO objective area.

Result: 6 x EKIA; 7 x NC KIA, 7 x detainees

(S) Summary: HAF departed for Orgun-E to conduct link-up and posture to the objective immediately after pre-assault fires. On order, 5 rockets were launched and destroyed structures on the objective (NAI 2). The HAF quickly inserted the assault force into the HLZ. ISR reported multiple UIMs leaving the objective area. The assault force quickly conducted dismounted movement to the target area and established containment on the south side of the objective. During the initial assault, dedicated air assets engaged multiple MAMs squirting off the objective area. GFC assessed 3 x EKIA squirters north and 3 x EKIA squirters south of the compound were neutralized from air asset fires. The assault force quickly maneuvered with a SQD element on the remaining squirters. The squirter element detained 12 x MAMs and returned to the objective area. GFC passed initial assessment of 7 x NC KIA (children). During initial questioning, it was assessed that the children were not allowed out of the building, due to UIMs presence within the compound. The assault force was able to uncover 1 x NC child from the rubble. The MED TM immediately cleared debris form the mouth and performed CPR to revive the child for 20 minutes. Due to time restrictions, TF CDR launched QRF element to action a follow-on target (NAI 5). They quickly contained the objective and initiated the assault. The objective was secured and the assault force initially detained 6 x MAMs. The GFC recommended that 7 MAMs be detained for additional questioning. The TF CDR assessed that the assault force will continue SSE. The local governor was notified of the current situation and requests for assistance were made to cordon the AO with support from ANP and local coalition forces in search of HVI. A PRT is enroute to AO.

1) Target was an AQ Senior Leader

2) Patterns of life were conducted on — ——— from ——— ——— (strike time) with no indications of women or children on the objective

3) The Mosque was not targeted nor was it struck initial reports state there is no damage to the Mosque

4) An elder who was at the Mosque stated that the children were held against their will and were intentionally kept inside

UPDATE: 18 0850Z June 07

- Governor Khapalwak has had no success yet in reaching President Karzai (due to the Presidents busy schedule today) but expects to reach him within the hour (PoA reached later in the afternoon ~ 1400Z)

- The Governor conducted a Shura this morning, in attendance were locals from both the Yahya Yosof Khail & Khail Districts

- He pressed the Talking Points given to him and added a few of his own that followed in line with our current story

- The atmospherics of the local populous is that they are in shock, but understand it was caused ultimately by the presence of hoodlums

- the people think it is good that bad men were killed

- the people regret the loss of life among the children

- The Governor echoed the tragedy of children being killed, but stressed this couldve been prevented had the people exposed the presence of insurgents in the area

- The Governor promised another Shura in a few days and that the families would be compensated for their loss

- Tthe Governor was asked what the mood of the people was and he stated that "the operation was a good thing, and the people believe what we have told them"

- Additionally, the people accused the Yahya Khail Chief of Police and his officers of corruption and collusion with TB in the area

- The Governor and the Provincial NDS Chief relieved the CofP and his officers, disarmed them, and they are currently detained and enroute to Sharana at this time unknown as to total numbers detained (MTF on this incident)



so yes, I'm sad about the negative results in kills/murders after the release of the documents but it's not a solution NOT to publish them. Think about the families of the dead in both Afghanistan/Pakistan and back in the US or allied countries: don't they deserve the truth about the why and what?

And the hunting down of the 'face' of Wikileaks won't do anything good to the opponents of the truth. They are giving the cause a martyr. And that's NEVER a good idea!
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MontyB
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« Reply #13 on: 8 December 2010, 19:04:23 »
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The importance of peoples right to know must be tempered by possible consequences of informing the enemy of their mistakes while they have the time to rectify those mistakes


In this you are correct of course.

I would only like to comment on one particular example of a release that was enlightening, even though it portrayed my country in a poor light. That would be the helicopter footage of the killing of the 2 Reuters newsmen. Had that footage not been leaked, the US Govt would still be standing by the false story they put out when the incident occurred.  In this case, the US was simply trying to avoid the embarrassment associated with the truth, something I do not support. As a veteran, I have seen the evils that man will do in war first hand. Letting a little fresh air (truth) into the discussion can only help.

We can undoubtedly find examples on both sides of this issue to further ones position. I for one, tend to lean toward finding out those things my country is trying to hide from me, for less reason than the legitimate case you have made.


Hey I am all for transparency in government but I tend to think that the presence of Wikileaks is just as powerful as the documents they leak.

My opinion would be that once politicians/military learn that everything they do will in time make it to the public domain they will learn to be honest through fear but this should not mean that all information is released the minute we have it in our possession as I have mentioned previously had the media known about ULTRA would you be enthusiastic about them releasing it in 1942?

I think one of the problems faced by both the military and politicians is that they still have not come to terms with modern world and that everything they do is not only record-able in high quality by almost everyone with a simple cellphone but that same technology can send the data world wide in real time so instead of having 1 correspondent being led around (as we had in previous wars) you have two entire armies of correspondents broadcasting 24/7.
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« Reply #14 on: 8 December 2010, 19:29:47 »
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here on the news: Assange is accused by 2 women for sexual assault but............................... both women said they did agree havin' sex but the question is: they did agree on sex without a condom?.... sorry but when I hear this I can't do anything else but laugh about the grade of 'ridiculous'..... waa
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« Reply #15 on: 8 December 2010, 20:13:16 »
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Matt,

A government can use deadly force, it has the instruments to do that.
Thats a big responsibility.
Now in a normal democracy, governments are controlled by parliaments.
If they do their work all illegal activities and crimes should be punished by them.

Often most people tend to forget the last chapter of the Geneva convention, it simply states : all written above will be of no matter in case of military urgence.
So that means if a known terrorist hides behind women and children its his decision and his responsability if these people get hurt, not the soldier doing his job.

Civilians like Assange are in my eyes criminals too, why?
Not because my government or the US government sais that.
But because he chose to cross a thin line, the line between making news and killing people.
You have to be carefull with the things you publish.

I dont give a damn about politics, like I said above parliament should do its job.
But if a government can be published for their actions, so should Assange be punished too for his actions.
He knew what he was doing, he knew the risks.
Is he better of or more important than others?
It he so special he can escape punishment too, the answer is no.

Its the last thing I say about the subject, he had his share of fame, more than enough.



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My topics are about my personal opinion, my thoughts and what I think. They do not reflect the official opinion of the ministry of defense of the Netherlands.
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« Reply #16 on: 8 December 2010, 20:58:59 »
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Matt,

A government can use deadly force, it has the instruments to do that.
Thats a big responsibility.
Now in a normal democracy, governments are controlled by parliaments.
If they do their work all illegal activities and crimes should be punished by them.

Often most people tend to forget the last chapter of the Geneva convention, it simply states : all written above will be of no matter in case of military urgence.
So that means if a known terrorist hides behind women and children its his decision and his responsability if these people get hurt, not the soldier doing his job.

Civilians like Assange are in my eyes criminals too, why?
Not because my government or the US government sais that.
But because he chose to cross a thin line, the line between making news and killing people.
You have to be carefull with the things you publish.

I dont give a damn about politics, like I said above parliament should do its job.
But if a government can be published for their actions, so should Assange be punished too for his actions.
He knew what he was doing, he knew the risks.
Is he better of or more important than others?
It he so special he can escape punishment too, the answer is no.

Its the last thing I say about the subject, he had his share of fame, more than enough.



that's want they all want, that people focus on Assange so that when he's found guilty people have the possibility to think that the releasing of the documents is also negative and the wrong thing....

did you read anything about the TaskForce and the Reuters killings? did you see all the lies and cover-ups?

Quote
Now in a normal democracy, governments are controlled by parliaments.
If they do their work all illegal activities and crimes should be punished by them


and did the parlementariers know about the illegal killings and the lies? if yes, why wasn't anyone punished in the government? if not, why didn't they know?
Quote
I dont give a damn about politics, like I said above parliament should do its job.
But if a government can be published PUNISHED for their actions, so should Assange be punished too for his actions.



Henk, you say you don't give a damn about politics but you are aware that the US army is managed and controlled by politicians, not?
What I understand from what you write is that you think that both 'US government' and 'Assange' are on the same level and should be punished the same way?
Did you see anybody punished in the US government? No! So Assange shouldn't be punished either?

furthermore, we're having a normal discussion with different POV's (without censorship) so there's no need for 'Its the last thing I say about the subject, he had his share of fame, more than enough.'

Quote
But because he chose to cross a thin line, the line between making news and killing people.
You have to be carefull with the things you publish.


he didn't make the news, he released it and it wasn't HIM, it was an organization
and the news is only interesting because it shows that we're not told a couple of lies but that the complete story families and the public general get from the war-on-terror is a BIG LIE.

and again (as I'm not stupid or one-side-minded)... I am aware of the consequences but without the lies there would never have been a Wikileaks or Assange

and as expected the first Untergang movies are released

Hitler Gets The WikiLeaks US Embassy Cables
« Last Edit: 8 December 2010, 21:19:07 by Koen » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: 8 December 2010, 21:26:58 »
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Civilians like Assange are in my eyes criminals too, why?
Not because my government or the US government sais that.
But because he chose to cross a thin line, the line between making news and killing people.

You keep repeating this, but you do not back it up with facts.

The case you reported before:
Quote
At Chora one of the tribal leaders maintained connections with our forces.
He was an important figure for stability at Chora.
Wikileaks blew his cover, soon after that he was killed by a carbomb........

had nothing to do with WikiLeaks at all.

The name of the tribal leader was Rozi Khan, and I know he was famous in the Netherlands as he came to the help for a unit under fire. And yes, he was important for the stability in the region.

But, he got killed in Sptember 2008, long before Wikileaks: http://www.smh.com.au/world/how-a-folk-hero-died-in-the-fog-of-war-20090712-dhfp.html?page=-1

A few days ago I have been in contact with a US soldier who very recently came back from Deh Rawood and he knows nothing about any incidents in the province that could be connected to WikiLeaks.

As far as I know all the publishing outlets go great length to redact the documents so that nobody gets endangered, and Nancy A. Youssef from McClatchy Newspapers writes NOV 28th:
Quote
U.S. officials concede that they have no evidence to date that the documents led to anyone's death. -snip-

Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell has said previously that there was no evidence that anyone had been killed because of the leaks. Sunday, another Pentagon official told McClatchy that the military still has no evidence that the leaks have led to any deaths. The official didn't want to be named because of the issue's sensitivity.

"We have yet to see any harm come to anyone in Afghanistan that we can directly tie to exposure in the WikiLeaks documents," Morrell told the Washington Post -snip-

Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/11/28/104404/officials-may-be-overstating-the.html#ixzz17YMwgeJ4


As for the other part of your post, I dont really understand what you are incriminating?

But if a government can be published for their actions, so should Assange be punished too for his actions.
He knew what he was doing, he knew the risks.
-snip-
It he so special he can escape punishment too, the answer is no.


It is not illegal to publish those documents (while sending them to him yes was illegal), so what actions should he be "punished" for? What risks did he "know" to face?

Rattler
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« Reply #18 on: 9 December 2010, 19:24:12 »
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WikiLeaks FTP access to raw US Apache footage of Massacre in Baghdad and more videos !!!


no comments needed
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« Reply #19 on: 10 December 2010, 07:20:17 »
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It is not illegal to publish those documents (while sending them to him yes was illegal), so what actions should he be "punished" for? What risks did he "know" to face?

Rattler



I am not sure this is at all true if the files are stolen then he is receiving stolen property, essentially he is profiting from an illegal activity.

As I have said a lot of this is inane crap that carries no real consequence's on being released outside a few red faced politicians but there is some of it that I am not sure should be released "yet".
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