It has started....

[stoffel]

Regarding the UN building which was shot at...there was a movie where a hamas member said:
There were fighters in the building ...(he than realizes his big mistake) but not when Israel shot at it......
Than suddenly it was not broadcasted again, strange dont you think.
Or should there really have been fighters inside using the citizens as cover?
No, they wouldnt do that do they?

[Mad Russian]

One of the basic tactics of terrorists is to use civilians as shields and to get the news media to show the results.

If those living in Gaza don't want Israeli retaliation they need to stop Hamas from firing rockets from Gaza.

They know the results of that action the same as Hamas does.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Koen]

well, it's not because there could be Hamas fighters in the buildings you need to bomb a UN hospital.

and it was not 1 but 2 hospitals

sorry children and babies but some bad people were in the building so YOU had do die?

********************************************************************************

new story:

UN sources declare that more then 30 people were killed  in 1 house.

Palestinian forces assembled some 110 members into 1 house on January 4th and told them NOT to leave the building.

Within 24 hours the house was shot into rubble by tank shells.

Red Cross aids were refused into that section of the city and could only reach them on wednesday afternoon during the cease-fire.

bad people in the house?

[von Staudt]

RANT MODE ON:   

Koen,

Dude, you need to stop watching BBC and CNN.  Get out on the web and find out what is really going on instead of parroting a bunch of anti-Israeli propaganda.  That includes anything the UN says.

Did you know that the Israelis have an automated phone system and call Palastinian civilians ahead of an attack to warn them?  I didn't think so.  http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24855309-2,00.html

We (not just Israel) are fighting people who "love death more than life", wear no uniforms, and hide behind women and children for the express purpose of getting them killed to promote their cause, which is the complete and utter destruction of Israel.  It's in the Hamas charter.  Go read it.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas  and  http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Those same children are being taught from day one to hate and kill Jews (and all infidels: that's you and me bro!).  Have you not seen them dressed up in their cute little homicide bomber suits?

Where you live (Western Europe) is getting overrun already.  There are enclaves in cities in your own country (not sure about Belgum specifically) where the police don't even go (England, France, Neatherlands, Norway, Denmark, and maybe more) because they have been taken over my Muslums.  Remember the "Youths" burning cars in France?  Here is what you have to look forward to:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

If you don't like Israel, that's fine, but there is much more to the story than you are seeing.  That is exactly what the pro-Palastinian/anti-Iraeli press wants.  They show you what they want you to see and nothing more:  the more dead kids the better.  They pull your emotional heart strings and lead you down the path to hate.  As the Great and Wonderful Oz said, "Just ignore the man behind the curtain!".

RANT MODE OFF   

[Koen]

not switching to Rant mode at all 

I'm not pro or contra any party...I'm contra killing innocents...

ofcourse you can say any person still standing in Gaza is a suicide bomber to be born but then you should just drop a nuke and get over with it...

Am I too blame when I get upset when I see children in need? Not just in war but in all kinds of problems?

I hate it when children and babies are the victims of the nonsense of so-called 'adults'

I haven't seen any report on BBC or NBC, I'm well pleased with the 'free' Belgian press.

furthermore...I'm well aware of the new ghettos...Brussels and Antwerp are Belgian cities...

don't accuse me of being anti-Israel or whatever...I'm anti violence/war...

[stoffel]

There are more examples... suicide bombers dont care if you walk down the road with your children when they blow themselves into pieces.
The terrorists in india last month shot at everybody they saw.
And so you can go on and on and on.
Its said that in Gaza civilians get hurt to, but who choose to fight in the city among the civilians?
Like Von Staudt said read Hamas manifest and you will think different very fast.
Look at this picture for instance ...

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-38581-13.html

Do you see where that missile is fired from, now imagine its aimed at your home Koen.
Do you want the Belgium army to react or do you want your own children to get killed by these missiles?
Btw the last update I got from an Israeli friend is that the army killed the two terrorist who were firing RPGs from the roof of the schoolbuilding.
They also captured the remains of these guys.

What more proof do you need?

Gazas inhabitants are terroized by hamas after Fatah was  removed by Hamas , they have to get there land in order again to live in Freedom.
Do a search on you tube for Hamas brutality against Gazas population.
Look to the contrasts in the Westbank and some major Israeli cities.
No problems there with palestinians, why, they have a job.
Look where their brothers in the other arab countries live, in refugee camps having nothing and reliying on food aid by the UN to survive.
These people are being kept poor and dum,why?
Easy willing victims for the Palestinian "case"

[Koen]

when you click on the links I provided you will see the same picture...

why are you guys try to convince me that Hamas is bad?

read my previous post and try to understand that post

[stoffel]

LOL,

I try to convince you that people who willingly put women and children in harms way for their cause are the ones to blame.
Not the people who react to their provocations.
Today I got on hyves a list of(world wide forbidden)islamic based organisations with known offices here in The Netherlands.
There are so many here that you may wonder who is ruling the country......

[Koen]

again...I'm not choosing sides...again...

when did I say that Israel was to blame?

I repeatedly said that violence will not solve it...not from whatever side it comes from...

[Tanker]

Perhaps you should choose a side.

Isreal is amenable to a 2 state solution.

Fatah was moving in that direction until Hamas took Gaza by force of arms and established their authority there.

Hizballah and Hamas are backed and directed by Iran.  All three have stated that they desire the annihilation of Isreal, no comprimise.

Isreal has not stated anything similarly vis a vis the Palestinians.

Any movement towards a solution between Isreal and the Palestinians is blocked by Iran, Syria and their proxies for their own purposes.

[Rattler]

Well, if you wanted to help Israel, you could give them your computer (use):

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/israel-dns-hack.html#more

Rattler

[Geordie]

One of the basic tactics of terrorists is to use civilians as shields and to get the news media to show the results.

If those living in Gaza don't want Israeli retaliation they need to stop Hamas from firing rockets from Gaza.

They know the results of that action the same as Hamas does.

Good Hunting.

MR

Not so easy though is it.  Going up to heavily armed men and asking politely if they would mind awfully not firing their pesky rocket things from your street.

The bottom, line is that both sides are wrong, one for continuing to fire rockets and bomb, the other for their over the top retaliation and assumption that the Holocaust excuses all and every action they take for ever more.

Let them all get at it until just one side is left, the problem is then very much solved.

[Tanker]

I agree with your first and last statements Geordie, but not the middle one.

Over the top retaliation would be carpet bombing Gaza City or tactical nukes to root out Hamas, just for example.  I think they are being as judicious as they can be.  They know how this plays around the world. 

How should Isreal respond to rocket attacks from a neighboring territory?  What would be a proportionate response?  I guess Isreal could say, "We had 3 people killed by Hamas rockets today, so we should retaliate and kill 3 Hamas members,"  My guess is that Isreal would run out of bodies first.  What government would (or should) survive with a policy like that?  Why should they submit to being pecked to death?

How can you call self defense wrong?

Why is it so easily forgotten that Hamas is the party that refused to extend the cease fire and initiated the current round of hostilities by firing rockets into Isreal?  If Hamas was concerned about the Palestinian civilians it would agree to a cease fire that allowed for verifiable monitoring of arms imports to Gaza. 

Speaking of proportionality, Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran (all working in concert) have publically stated that their aim is the destruction of Isreal.
I don't believe Isreal has the same policy vis a vis the Palestinians or Iran.

Your remark about the Holcaust being used as an exuse for any action just doesn't hold water for me.  I think it's more that they are determined never to let it happen again.  I don't blame them.

[Rattler]

-snip-

Over the top retaliation would be carpet bombing Gaza City or tactical nukes to root out Hamas, just for example.  I think they are being as judicious as they can be.  They know how this plays around the world. 

How should Isreal respond to rocket attacks from a neighboring territory?  What would be a proportionate response? 

Simple, just some of a wide spectrum of options to be applied single or joint (not even have tried one of those fuels my suscicion of plain cynism on their side):

- get international backup and an SC consensus to agree on acting on HAMAS
- turn off the money to HAMAS
- turn off Egypitan/Syrian/Iranian support via international consensus AND/OR selective elimination (dont tell me Mossad has no clue who is feeding Hamas?)
- get EU/US/UN troops to secure the areas rockets get fired from, also the tunnels
- get your SpecOps going and anihilate leaders and actors with their hand in the mass
- 24/7 TUAV/JLENS etc. (which I suppose they have up anyway), strike on the guys when they´re about to fire
- Negotiate other cease fire
- Separate the civilian pop from their leaders by offerenig alternatives (youth in gaza have ablolutely *no* perspective because of the enforced blockade)
- More creative stuff: Offer $ 500.000/5.000.000 and asylum incl. family in the EU to each Hamas fighter/leader resigning

etc. etc.

Why is it so easily forgotten that... -snip-

... Israel (its later political leaders respectively) came 2k years later than the palestinians to the same area and *started* the whole story by getting their state through sheer terrorism (Irgun - = Etzel -  vs. King David Hotel, Massacre of Deir Yassin, Haganah, Balfour Declaration, Ben Gurion, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, etc, google for youself and you get an idea of the amount of brainwash we have been going through the last 50 yrs, history is always the history of the winners...).

Interstingly they called all those terrorist acts with more than 1k death toll "defense"... :-) Sounds familiar?

Rattler

[Tanker]

- get international backup and an SC consensus to agree on acting on HAMAS

Isreal has asked for an international monitoring/prescence in Gaza.
Sc depends on approval of Russia and China.  Hamas won't allow UN monitors

- turn off the money to HAMAS
- turn off Egypitan/Syrian/Iranian support via international consensus AND/OR selective elimination (dont tell me Mossad has no clue who is feeding Hamas?)

You don't think Isreal has tried?  The US and the West can't collectively cut off all money to Al Queda and you think Isreal can cut off all money to Hamas?

- get EU/US/UN troops to secure the areas rockets get fired from, also the tunnels

See your first point above.

- get your SpecOps going and anihilate leaders and actors with their hand in the mass

Most of the top Hamas leadership is in Damascas.  Isreali special forces/mossad are probably looking for Hamas in Gaza

- 24/7 TUAV/JLENS etc. (which I suppose they have up anyway), strike on the guys when they´re about to fire

Sounds simple doesn't it?  I'm sure the time it takes to set up and launch a rocket, from a civilian neighborhood by the way, is often less than the reaction time to detect and attack the launch site.

- Negotiate other cease fire

What did Hamas do with the last one?  They used it to smuggle in and make more rockets and weapons instead of improving the lives of the people they are supposed to represent.  What do you think they would do with another one that was not supervised?

- Separate the civilian pop from their leaders by offerenig alternatives (youth in gaza have ablolutely *no* perspective because of the enforced blockade)
- More creative stuff: Offer $ 500.000/5.000.000 and asylum incl. family in the EU to each Hamas fighter/leader resigning

These last 2 have some merit.  Unfortunately the blockade is a response to Hamas smuggling of weapons and attacks.
Also would you not have to find some country willing to take in, supposedly former, members of a terrorist organization?[  If I were a Hamas man I would take the money, move to where ever and then sneak back into Gaza to continue the fight.  They are dedicated.

One last point; Where is the outrage over the hundereds rockets or mortar shells that have landed on Isreal in the last year as well as the suicide bombers?  Didn't they make the papers or television?  Not spectacular enough?



etc. etc.

Why is it so easily forgotten that... -snip-

... Israel (its later political leaders respectively) came 2k years later than the palestinians to the same area and *started* the whole story by getting their state through sheer terrorism (Irgun - = Etzel -  vs. King David Hotel, Massacre of Deir Yassin, Haganah, Balfour Declaration, Ben Gurion, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, etc, google for youself and you get an idea of the amount of brainwash we have been going through the last 50 yrs, history is always the history of the winners...).

Interstingly they called all those terrorist acts with more than 1k death toll "defense"... :-) Sounds familiar?

If you are going to quote me you should include the whole statement.


You are a little off base here.  This is a circular argument.  Where do you think the Jewish people lived prior to the diaspora.  They lived in the Holy land before the Romans destroyed the temple and they were dispersed.  So their descendents may have come back 2000 years later but the arabs(only called Palestinians in the last century) can't claim exclusive rights to the land from all time.  And it can't really be said that Isreal started the whole story.  I think the whole story goes a lot further back than that.  I'm also sure I could google a heinous act by Arabs against Jews to balance any that you cite.  And as far as brain washing goes I hope you are aware of what takes place in madrassahs from Pakistan to Indonesia.

Ultimately the argument of who was there first is pointless.  They are both there now and they will both have to accept that.  As long as Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah are in the mix,  they won't
 

Rattler

[von Staudt]

Here is a little "mind experiment" for ya'll:   

Scenario #1:  Suddenly the Palastinians throw their arms into the sea, and declare a unilateral end to the fighting, and agree to recognize Israel's right to exist.  What happens next?

Scenaio #2:  Suddenly the Israelis throw their arms into the sea, open the borders, declare a unilateral end to the fighting and agree to give the Palastinians Gaza and the West Bank for their own state.  What happens next?

Post what you think will happen in each case.

[Rattler]

Here is a little "mind experiment" for ya'll:   

Scenario #1:  Suddenly the Palastinians throw their arms into the sea, and declare a unilateral end to the fighting, and agree to recognize Israel's right to exist.  What happens next?

Scenaio #2:  Suddenly the Israelis throw their arms into the sea, open the borders, declare a unilateral end to the fighting and agree to give the Palastinians Gaza and the West Bank for their own state.  What happens next?

Post what you think will happen in each case.

Interesting take.

Based on my firm belief that this is all about the money, (we are talking the serious stuff here: Hundreds of millions Euros/$ and related commisions), I would guess something like the following to happen:

Re Sc1: The Palestinian Leader deciding that will get killed. A big terrorist actioin that kills a few hundred Israelis will take place on Israeli soil and will be auto-attributed by a formerly unknown fighter formation (of cause, this would have been staged by Iran, Syria and Israel services together). Israel will be pressed by its citizens to retaliate in force, and the thingy goes on.

Re SC2: The Isarel Leader deciding that will get killed. A series of terrorist actions that kill a few hundred Palestinians will take place and will be traced back to some radical settler group formerly unknown (of cause, this would have been staged by Iran, Syria and Israel services together). Some Palestinians will retaliate in force, and the thingy goes on.

Rattler

[Rattler]

-snip-

Why is it so easily forgotten that... -snip-

-snip-

If you are going to quote me you should include the whole statement.

Just for the record, I did *not* quote a statement with those lines ( just your opening words up to where your statement started) to add my statement.

Rattler

[FACman]

I guess my perspective is a bit twisted (as many of my ideas seem to be), If I recall correctly, both sides can trace their ancestry to Abraham. That would make the whole 2k+ year conflict, a civil war between cousins. (How retarded is that?) One of the things we used to say in 'Nam was;  "Why are we getting involved in their 'Civil War' (between North & South Vietnam)? "

A pox on both their houses for their ignorance. The leaders on both sides care more for their ideals, than their children's futures. I fear the concept of 'Forever War'  (though I hope I am wrong) holds sway over the region. I suspect, should the state of Isreal cease to exist, the Shia & Sunni would then return to their own 'Civil War', changing nothing in the region but the actors.

It seems to me, that we who would wage war, too oft forget, the most to suffer are the least able to cope with it...our children.  I remember my own experience of the Terror' of war, but I knowingly volunteered for that, which I even 40 years later still suffer from. That however, is my Karma.  Children who ask for nothing but love, affection and security, instead, are cursed with the wrenching memories of 'Terror',  without the reasoning ability to begin to understand what is happening to their world.

Curse us all...

Disclaimer:
Please understand, that while I expound upon the subjects of this thread, my feelings apply to all of humankind that retard our evolutionary progress. I take the side of only the children in this post and none  of the beligerents (including my own country). My use of the word 'Terror', is in the sense of feelings, not tactics.

AYS,

J

[von Staudt]

Koen,

They are closer than you think!  Keep a low profile.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/01/022547.php