NCO Club: Off Topic Discussions => The Chambers: Political Discussion Board => Topic started by: stoffel on 28 December 2008, 16:13:10



Title: It has started....
Post by: stoffel on 28 December 2008, 16:13:10
Israel made its first move yesterday to stop the ongoing terrorist actions from Hamas, I hope they will solve the problem with Hamas soon and swift with no remorse.

Or as a friend said:

Yesterday justice,
Today the decision.
Tomorrow...peace, hopefully.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Koen on 28 December 2008, 16:33:17
Sadly we enough we can't say that yesterday was the start of it...it's been ongoing longer then anyone can remember...

but this surely will be the start of another bloody and destructive episode...remember...elections are coming up in Israel...

as result of the overkill more people will join Hamas or any other anti-Israel movement

Hamas docu: LINK (http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/inside_hamas.php)

* until now 120-170 dead, 1 of them is Hamas-police Major-General Tawfik Jaber

* Al Aksa TV has been bombed, broadcasting continues using a mobile unit

* mosk near the Shifa hospital in Gaza-city bombed

* in attackin Hamas but keeping(?) the population friendly: food transports are allowed to enter Gaza and wounded Palestinian are allowed into Israelian hospitals

* 6500 reserves have been drafted by Israel (sat:2000 and sun:4500)


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 29 December 2008, 13:16:55
Folks, I have a very different take on that:

- It is either a war or not.

- IF it is a war, then the guys w/o the a/c have all the right to emply their own intelligent bombs w/o being labelled terrorists automatically

- IF you should NOT label that a war, then see my stance over here (English): http://www.airdisaster.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1877#p24321

Actually, it is us serious people that - taking stances - fuel the money making of those d..kheads on all sides involved, a shame.

Kind regards,

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Koen on 29 December 2008, 14:03:09
Rattler...I never said that it's NOT a war...

what I said is that this is not the beginning of a war/conflict but just the start of another episode...

you can't tell anymore who are the terrorists in this conflict...

the easiest way is to say 'they fired the rockets' but NOT to wonder 'why did they fire rockets?'

do you need a global reason to hate Israel when your son got blown away by a bomb? no, that fact on itself is enough reason to do what you feel should've done

Does it help to look who threw the first stone? No, ofcourse not....

Does it help the conflict to answers Israel bombings by firing more rockets?

The only result that will come out of this episode, the same as with the previous episodes, is more hate and more reasons to continue this fight.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Herr Hauptman on 29 December 2008, 14:28:16
Let them fight it out.All the negative western outlook on the Palastinians.How would you like it if a great Empire decided to give your land to another ethnic group of people that are always trying to settle the land you have left?The Isrealites in the Old Testament took that land through a great series of amazing victorys.They will need some more to keep it now.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 29 December 2008, 14:33:45
Update:

Spanish TV has in the noon news that Israel cut down the electricity, which means the hospitals (short of gas) will soon run out to be able to treat the more than 1^200 injured, 600 of them critically injured.

Also, Israel today announced that this was just the beginning of a heavy bombing campaign and have, this morning, bombed a ffew refugee camps, casualtities yet unknown.

Spanish TV now titles the reports with "Genocide on Palestinians" (I doubt German or US TV will follow).

FWIW,

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Koen on 29 December 2008, 14:54:57
Thomas Steg, the German spokesman for its government, said that it's Israels right to defend itself...
The same guy said that Hamas was the one to blame.

*****

Hamas asked help from the president of the United Arabique Emirates, sjeik Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahayan, for help. He promised humanitarian aid.

*****

Condoleezza Rice declared that Hamas is responsible for the new war.

*****

next to the draft of 6500 reserves there is a build-up of infantry and tanks near the border

*****

Ayatollah Khamenei, the religious leader of Iran, called on all muslims to help/defend the women and children in Gaza. He who dies trying to do so will become a martyr.
Iran called today a day of national mourning.

*****

Turkey called it a 'crime against humanity'

*****

and the political background:
*february 10th is the day of elections and the opossition leader, Netanyahu, is winning votes with his anti-Hamas talk.
*and the newly elected USA president who will be less anti-Palestinians.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Koen on 29 December 2008, 18:58:19
sources say:

345 dead
1600 wounded

Oxfam, Medics without Frontiers & Amnesty International speak of an unsees humanitarian disaster

members of Hamas & Abu Tir targeted and killed, ofcourse with surrounding civilians

electricity and water cut-off in many places

medicins are almost unavailable in hospitals, medics withour frontiers giving out their reserves

gate opened between Egypt and Gaza: medicins and food unloaded at the gate, trucks not allowed to enter

Dan Harel, Israeli general, declares that this is the total war, annihilation of Hamas infrastructure, members, rocketlaunchers and all material used by Hamas.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: stoffel on 29 December 2008, 20:18:41
Convention of geneva is quite simple, if you target a country or a regular army without being recognizable as a combatant yourself, than you are a terrorist.
If you hide behind women and children or put your weapons in hospitals/schools/ shops or whereever civilians can get hurt than you are responsible yourself  for those peoples dead when an army attacks these targets.

Now I have to say that I allways look at the deads with some unbelief as if they are innocent, I consider men between 16 and 40 not as innocent on first sight.
And that is the biggest problem with terrorists, take away the weapons and its an "innocent victim".

Its a difficult situation, HAMAS has had several chances to ease the tension.
Israel cannot do anything else than hit them hard.
I have spoken to many people in Israel, palestinians in Israel have a tough time but compared to their brothers in the arab countries they are much better off.
At least they have a chance to work and live.
Look at Eilat and other big Israeli places where all people live together, most of them have a job and a living, they dont care about war.
Hiw different is the situation for their brothers in the arab countries who live in refugeecamps and have nothing.
Hamas and the other fractions keep their  population unemployed and unschooled.
Main reason: if people are unsatified or unhappy they can be drafted very easy for the "cause", easy to point the finger to Israel as the agressor.

I think this war can be solved only if either the Israelis or the arabs are dead and there is noone left to fight.




Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 29 December 2008, 21:02:25
-snip- ...or put your weapons in hospitals/schools/ shops or whereever civilians can get hurt than you are responsible yourself  for those peoples dead when an army attacks these targets. -snip-


I am not sure you are aware of the infrastructural situation in Gaza strip (I have been there): The strip is very small, just 4-6x30km, a total of 340 sqkm, thats just slightly more than Amsterdam City (220 sqkm), populated with 1.5 million inhabitants + 1 million refugees (thats 3.5x the population density of A´dam).

It simply is impossible for the government infrasturcture, police stations, the university, etc  - those were the  targets up to now -  not to be not surrounded by civilians. We are tlaking a democratically elected government here that is being attacked (and those election were furthered and supported by US and UN) just because Israel did not like the outcome of the elections. The people targeting Israel with rockets enter through tunnels and dont live within the strip (and hence dont hide within civil populaation), so bombarding the government installations wont do anything but hurt just those (ok, so Israel has killed 80 police officers, what about your Geneva Convention in this respect?).

Check details and political status for yourself: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html#People


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: stoffel on 29 December 2008, 21:40:16
I know most of them come from other places, but its the responsibility of the Gaza government to stop them.
If they dont do that with all the powers they have, they are  responsible and become a legitimate target themselves.
They even acted against fellow palestinians like Fatah, only with one objective become the only power in charge.
There is no doubt that this so called government has strong ties with HAMAS or better is controlled by HAMAS.
Dont forget that a Hamas fighter will see you as a legitimate target because  your country has troops in Afghanistan.
Even though you are against them or not.

So here an eye for an eye is valid.
They have  been around for too long killing innocent civilians , and now they get there share.



Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Mad Russian on 30 December 2008, 03:11:22
The same tactics are used by terrorists worldwide and have for as long as they have been effective.

Shoot from a friendly or neutral area, then quickly leave. When the targeted people shoot back they hit none of those doing this only those that are living there in the first place.

The locals have a huge responsibility for the actions of those that fire from their soil. They know Israel will retaliate so they need to police their own organizations. All the dead and wounded are on the Hamas leaders.

Now, as to who started what and who fired first? There is no accounting for that. It simply goes on until one side has had enough of the smaller engagements and wants a bigger fight to knock out the other side for awhile.

This will all be over when there is ONE PERSON LEFT STANDING....and not before then.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: FACman on 30 December 2008, 16:25:07
May the whole world go blind from 'all'  the eye for an eye rationalizations. mayhaps war will end when we are all blind and can no longer target our supposed foes.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 4 January 2009, 18:59:10
Latest News: The ground war has started...

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=kpszOA32L2g

An interesting article on the LL´s from the Lebanon war here:

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/12/smart-takes-on.html

Just FYI,

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Koen on 4 January 2009, 19:28:44
yes and the American Senate approves...

Bush says that the cause of this violence is 100% Hamas

Also he declares that EVERYBODY should work against HAMAS to make sure that they will accept a cease-fire without firing rockets...

ofcourse that's easily said when you know in advance they'll never accept this

bodycount: 437 including women and children.........

50 AV's reaching the cityborders of Gaza-city


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Koen on 6 January 2009, 20:23:45
2 UN-controlled hospitals were hit...minimal 40 dead people...

AND

the UN gave the GPS coordinates of those 2 hospitals to make sure they weren't bombarded...

Belgian, together with other European countries, is talking to Israel to take children away and give them the needed medical help IN Belgium...

Again, war is easier then peace.

Sending soldiers to fight is easier then helping victims!

Bush, Rice? Where is the humanitarian help?

European doctors in hospitals declare that they are out of everything...beds, medicins and all other lifesaving material....

First filmed pictures are broadcasted...from official Israeli sources...no victims ofcourse...no blood...no children...yeah, right....

other kind of pictures: LINK (http://www.b0g.org/wsnm/articles/New+Year+in+Gaza)

(http://www.monde-magouilles.com/photos_guerre/gaza3.jpg)

(http://www.jordantimes.com/img/4500/4297.jpg)

the result:
the first suicide killer ran under an Israeli armoured vehicle, more are certainly waiting....
people are loosing their houses, their parents, family and children...

every single family gives Hamas at least 1 soldier...pure for revenge...


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Mad Russian on 6 January 2009, 20:36:10
Should we start posting pictures of Israeli children, homes, families affected by Hamas rocket attacks?

To determine that this is all an Israeli issue is far too simple. There is no right and wrong here. It gets all mixed up over the pain and suffering that each side does to the other.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Koen on 6 January 2009, 20:43:50
Should we start posting pictures of Israeli children, homes, families affected by Hamas rocket attacks?

To determine that this is all an Israeli issue is far too simple. There is no right and wrong here. It gets all mixed up over the pain and suffering that each side does to the other.

Good Hunting.

MR



I didn't determine anything...never said that one side is more responsable then another...but pictures of children go right into my heart...

and there's no solution into excessive force...or whatever force...

as you wish: pictures from both sides: link (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/12/israel_and_gaza.html)


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 6 January 2009, 22:30:17
I have written a (partially mixed with stuff I wrote here) new statement on AD.info, instead of repeating myself I post the link  (http://www.airdisaster.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1877&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p24535)

The thread over there is quite heated (as was to expect) but fairly civilized, might be worht a read (dont take any stuff that might look like flaming too serioous, those guys go together a long time).

FWIW,

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Koen on 8 January 2009, 22:35:10
more pics: LINK (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/01/scenes_from_the_gaza_strip.html)


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: stoffel on 9 January 2009, 14:19:44
Regarding the UN building which was shot at...there was a movie where a hamas member said:
There were fighters in the building ...(he than realizes his big mistake) but not when Israel shot at it......
Than suddenly it was not broadcasted again, strange dont you think.
Or should there really have been fighters inside using the citizens as cover?
No, they wouldnt do that do they?


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Mad Russian on 9 January 2009, 17:07:45
One of the basic tactics of terrorists is to use civilians as shields and to get the news media to show the results.

If those living in Gaza don't want Israeli retaliation they need to stop Hamas from firing rockets from Gaza.

They know the results of that action the same as Hamas does.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Koen on 9 January 2009, 17:09:16
well, it's not because there could be Hamas fighters in the buildings you need to bomb a UN hospital.

and it was not 1 but 2 hospitals

sorry children and babies but some bad people were in the building so YOU had do die?

********************************************************************************

new story:

UN sources declare that more then 30 people were killed  in 1 house.

Palestinian forces assembled some 110 members into 1 house on January 4th and told them NOT to leave the building.

Within 24 hours the house was shot into rubble by tank shells.

Red Cross aids were refused into that section of the city and could only reach them on wednesday afternoon during the cease-fire.

bad people in the house?


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: von Staudt on 9 January 2009, 18:12:03
RANT MODE ON:   >:(

Koen,

Dude, you need to stop watching BBC and CNN.  Get out on the web and find out what is really going on instead of parroting a bunch of anti-Israeli propaganda.  That includes anything the UN says.

Did you know that the Israelis have an automated phone system and call Palastinian civilians ahead of an attack to warn them?  I didn't think so.  http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24855309-2,00.html

We (not just Israel) are fighting people who "love death more than life", wear no uniforms, and hide behind women and children for the express purpose of getting them killed to promote their cause, which is the complete and utter destruction of Israel.  It's in the Hamas charter.  Go read it.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas  and  http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Those same children are being taught from day one to hate and kill Jews (and all infidels: that's you and me bro!).  Have you not seen them dressed up in their cute little homicide bomber suits?

Where you live (Western Europe) is getting overrun already.  There are enclaves in cities in your own country (not sure about Belgum specifically) where the police don't even go (England, France, Neatherlands, Norway, Denmark, and maybe more) because they have been taken over my Muslums.  Remember the "Youths" burning cars in France?  Here is what you have to look forward to:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

If you don't like Israel, that's fine, but there is much more to the story than you are seeing.  That is exactly what the pro-Palastinian/anti-Iraeli press wants.  They show you what they want you to see and nothing more:  the more dead kids the better.  They pull your emotional heart strings and lead you down the path to hate.  As the Great and Wonderful Oz said, "Just ignore the man behind the curtain!".

RANT MODE OFF   :D


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Koen on 9 January 2009, 18:48:31
not switching to Rant mode at all  ;)

I'm not pro or contra any party...I'm contra killing innocents...

ofcourse you can say any person still standing in Gaza is a suicide bomber to be born but then you should just drop a nuke and get over with it...

Am I too blame when I get upset when I see children in need? Not just in war but in all kinds of problems?

I hate it when children and babies are the victims of the nonsense of so-called 'adults'

I haven't seen any report on BBC or NBC, I'm well pleased with the 'free' Belgian press.

furthermore...I'm well aware of the new ghettos...Brussels and Antwerp are Belgian cities...

don't accuse me of being anti-Israel or whatever...I'm anti violence/war...


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: stoffel on 9 January 2009, 18:54:08
There are more examples... suicide bombers dont care if you walk down the road with your children when they blow themselves into pieces.
The terrorists in india last month shot at everybody they saw.
And so you can go on and on and on.
Its said that in Gaza civilians get hurt to, but who choose to fight in the city among the civilians?
Like Von Staudt said read Hamas manifest and you will think different very fast.
Look at this picture for instance ...

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-38581-13.html

Do you see where that missile is fired from, now imagine its aimed at your home Koen.
Do you want the Belgium army to react or do you want your own children to get killed by these missiles?
Btw the last update I got from an Israeli friend is that the army killed the two terrorist who were firing RPGs from the roof of the schoolbuilding.
They also captured the remains of these guys.

What more proof do you need?

Gazas inhabitants are terroized by hamas after Fatah was  removed by Hamas , they have to get there land in order again to live in Freedom.
Do a search on you tube for Hamas brutality against Gazas population.
Look to the contrasts in the Westbank and some major Israeli cities.
No problems there with palestinians, why, they have a job.
Look where their brothers in the other arab countries live, in refugee camps having nothing and reliying on food aid by the UN to survive.
These people are being kept poor and dum,why?
Easy willing victims for the Palestinian "case"


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Koen on 9 January 2009, 19:09:43
when you click on the links I provided you will see the same picture...

why are you guys try to convince me that Hamas is bad?

read my previous post and try to understand that post


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: stoffel on 9 January 2009, 19:17:04
LOL,

I try to convince you that people who willingly put women and children in harms way for their cause are the ones to blame.
Not the people who react to their provocations.
Today I got on hyves a list of(world wide forbidden)islamic based organisations with known offices here in The Netherlands.
There are so many here that you may wonder who is ruling the country......


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Koen on 9 January 2009, 19:25:29
again...I'm not choosing sides...again...

when did I say that Israel was to blame?

I repeatedly said that violence will not solve it...not from whatever side it comes from...


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Tanker on 10 January 2009, 21:09:41
Perhaps you should choose a side.

Isreal is amenable to a 2 state solution.

Fatah was moving in that direction until Hamas took Gaza by force of arms and established their authority there.

Hizballah and Hamas are backed and directed by Iran.  All three have stated that they desire the annihilation of Isreal, no comprimise.

Isreal has not stated anything similarly vis a vis the Palestinians.

Any movement towards a solution between Isreal and the Palestinians is blocked by Iran, Syria and their proxies for their own purposes.



Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 11 January 2009, 10:36:50
Well, if you wanted to help Israel, you could give them your computer (use):

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/israel-dns-hack.html#more

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Geordie on 13 January 2009, 15:23:08
One of the basic tactics of terrorists is to use civilians as shields and to get the news media to show the results.

If those living in Gaza don't want Israeli retaliation they need to stop Hamas from firing rockets from Gaza.

They know the results of that action the same as Hamas does.

Good Hunting.

MR


Not so easy though is it.  Going up to heavily armed men and asking politely if they would mind awfully not firing their pesky rocket things from your street.

The bottom, line is that both sides are wrong, one for continuing to fire rockets and bomb, the other for their over the top retaliation and assumption that the Holocaust excuses all and every action they take for ever more.

Let them all get at it until just one side is left, the problem is then very much solved.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Tanker on 13 January 2009, 16:17:19
I agree with your first and last statements Geordie, but not the middle one.

Over the top retaliation would be carpet bombing Gaza City or tactical nukes to root out Hamas, just for example.  I think they are being as judicious as they can be.  They know how this plays around the world. 

How should Isreal respond to rocket attacks from a neighboring territory?  What would be a proportionate response?  I guess Isreal could say, "We had 3 people killed by Hamas rockets today, so we should retaliate and kill 3 Hamas members,"  My guess is that Isreal would run out of bodies first.  What government would (or should) survive with a policy like that?  Why should they submit to being pecked to death?

How can you call self defense wrong?

Why is it so easily forgotten that Hamas is the party that refused to extend the cease fire and initiated the current round of hostilities by firing rockets into Isreal?  If Hamas was concerned about the Palestinian civilians it would agree to a cease fire that allowed for verifiable monitoring of arms imports to Gaza. 

Speaking of proportionality, Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran (all working in concert) have publically stated that their aim is the destruction of Isreal.
I don't believe Isreal has the same policy vis a vis the Palestinians or Iran.

Your remark about the Holcaust being used as an exuse for any action just doesn't hold water for me.  I think it's more that they are determined never to let it happen again.  I don't blame them.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 13 January 2009, 16:57:12
-snip-

Over the top retaliation would be carpet bombing Gaza City or tactical nukes to root out Hamas, just for example.  I think they are being as judicious as they can be.  They know how this plays around the world. 

How should Isreal respond to rocket attacks from a neighboring territory?  What would be a proportionate response? 


Simple, just some of a wide spectrum of options to be applied single or joint (not even have tried one of those fuels my suscicion of plain cynism on their side):

- get international backup and an SC consensus to agree on acting on HAMAS
- turn off the money to HAMAS
- turn off Egypitan/Syrian/Iranian support via international consensus AND/OR selective elimination (dont tell me Mossad has no clue who is feeding Hamas?)
- get EU/US/UN troops to secure the areas rockets get fired from, also the tunnels
- get your SpecOps going and anihilate leaders and actors with their hand in the mass
- 24/7 TUAV/JLENS etc. (which I suppose they have up anyway), strike on the guys when they´re about to fire
- Negotiate other cease fire
- Separate the civilian pop from their leaders by offerenig alternatives (youth in gaza have ablolutely *no* perspective because of the enforced blockade)
- More creative stuff: Offer $ 500.000/5.000.000 and asylum incl. family in the EU to each Hamas fighter/leader resigning

etc. etc.

Why is it so easily forgotten that... -snip-


... Israel (its later political leaders respectively) came 2k years later than the palestinians to the same area and *started* the whole story by getting their state through sheer terrorism (Irgun - = Etzel -  vs. King David Hotel, Massacre of Deir Yassin, Haganah, Balfour Declaration, Ben Gurion, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, etc, google for youself and you get an idea of the amount of brainwash we have been going through the last 50 yrs, history is always the history of the winners...).

Interstingly they called all those terrorist acts with more than 1k death toll "defense"... :-) Sounds familiar?

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Tanker on 13 January 2009, 20:23:30


- get international backup and an SC consensus to agree on acting on HAMAS

Isreal has asked for an international monitoring/prescence in Gaza.
Sc depends on approval of Russia and China.  Hamas won't allow UN monitors

- turn off the money to HAMAS
- turn off Egypitan/Syrian/Iranian support via international consensus AND/OR selective elimination (dont tell me Mossad has no clue who is feeding Hamas?)

You don't think Isreal has tried?  The US and the West can't collectively cut off all money to Al Queda and you think Isreal can cut off all money to Hamas?

- get EU/US/UN troops to secure the areas rockets get fired from, also the tunnels

See your first point above.

- get your SpecOps going and anihilate leaders and actors with their hand in the mass

Most of the top Hamas leadership is in Damascas.  Isreali special forces/mossad are probably looking for Hamas in Gaza

- 24/7 TUAV/JLENS etc. (which I suppose they have up anyway), strike on the guys when they´re about to fire

Sounds simple doesn't it?  I'm sure the time it takes to set up and launch a rocket, from a civilian neighborhood by the way, is often less than the reaction time to detect and attack the launch site.

- Negotiate other cease fire

What did Hamas do with the last one?  They used it to smuggle in and make more rockets and weapons instead of improving the lives of the people they are supposed to represent.  What do you think they would do with another one that was not supervised?

- Separate the civilian pop from their leaders by offerenig alternatives (youth in gaza have ablolutely *no* perspective because of the enforced blockade)
- More creative stuff: Offer $ 500.000/5.000.000 and asylum incl. family in the EU to each Hamas fighter/leader resigning

These last 2 have some merit.  Unfortunately the blockade is a response to Hamas smuggling of weapons and attacks.
Also would you not have to find some country willing to take in, supposedly former, members of a terrorist organization?[  If I were a Hamas man I would take the money, move to where ever and then sneak back into Gaza to continue the fight.  They are dedicated.

One last point; Where is the outrage over the hundereds rockets or mortar shells that have landed on Isreal in the last year as well as the suicide bombers?  Didn't they make the papers or television?  Not spectacular enough?



etc. etc.

Why is it so easily forgotten that... -snip-


... Israel (its later political leaders respectively) came 2k years later than the palestinians to the same area and *started* the whole story by getting their state through sheer terrorism (Irgun - = Etzel -  vs. King David Hotel, Massacre of Deir Yassin, Haganah, Balfour Declaration, Ben Gurion, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, etc, google for youself and you get an idea of the amount of brainwash we have been going through the last 50 yrs, history is always the history of the winners...).

Interstingly they called all those terrorist acts with more than 1k death toll "defense"... :-) Sounds familiar?

If you are going to quote me you should include the whole statement.


You are a little off base here.  This is a circular argument.  Where do you think the Jewish people lived prior to the diaspora.  They lived in the Holy land before the Romans destroyed the temple and they were dispersed.  So their descendents may have come back 2000 years later but the arabs(only called Palestinians in the last century) can't claim exclusive rights to the land from all time.  And it can't really be said that Isreal started the whole story.  I think the whole story goes a lot further back than that.  I'm also sure I could google a heinous act by Arabs against Jews to balance any that you cite.  And as far as brain washing goes I hope you are aware of what takes place in madrassahs from Pakistan to Indonesia.

Ultimately the argument of who was there first is pointless.  They are both there now and they will both have to accept that.  As long as Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah are in the mix,  they won't
 

Rattler




Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: von Staudt on 14 January 2009, 01:24:57
Here is a little "mind experiment" for ya'll:   ???

Scenario #1:  Suddenly the Palastinians throw their arms into the sea, and declare a unilateral end to the fighting, and agree to recognize Israel's right to exist.  What happens next?

Scenaio #2:  Suddenly the Israelis throw their arms into the sea, open the borders, declare a unilateral end to the fighting and agree to give the Palastinians Gaza and the West Bank for their own state.  What happens next?

Post what you think will happen in each case.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 14 January 2009, 09:43:19
Here is a little "mind experiment" for ya'll:   ???

Scenario #1:  Suddenly the Palastinians throw their arms into the sea, and declare a unilateral end to the fighting, and agree to recognize Israel's right to exist.  What happens next?

Scenaio #2:  Suddenly the Israelis throw their arms into the sea, open the borders, declare a unilateral end to the fighting and agree to give the Palastinians Gaza and the West Bank for their own state.  What happens next?

Post what you think will happen in each case.


Interesting take.

Based on my firm belief that this is all about the money, (we are talking the serious stuff here: Hundreds of millions Euros/$ and related commisions), I would guess something like the following to happen:

Re Sc1: The Palestinian Leader deciding that will get killed. A big terrorist actioin that kills a few hundred Israelis will take place on Israeli soil and will be auto-attributed by a formerly unknown fighter formation (of cause, this would have been staged by Iran, Syria and Israel services together). Israel will be pressed by its citizens to retaliate in force, and the thingy goes on.

Re SC2: The Isarel Leader deciding that will get killed. A series of terrorist actions that kill a few hundred Palestinians will take place and will be traced back to some radical settler group formerly unknown (of cause, this would have been staged by Iran, Syria and Israel services together). Some Palestinians will retaliate in force, and the thingy goes on.

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 14 January 2009, 09:50:26
-snip-

Why is it so easily forgotten that... -snip-


-snip-

If you are going to quote me you should include the whole statement.



Just for the record, I did *not* quote a statement with those lines ( just your opening words up to where your statement started) to add my statement.

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: FACman on 14 January 2009, 16:20:14
I guess my perspective is a bit twisted (as many of my ideas seem to be), If I recall correctly, both sides can trace their ancestry to Abraham. That would make the whole 2k+ year conflict, a civil war between cousins. (How retarded is that?) One of the things we used to say in 'Nam was;  "Why are we getting involved in their 'Civil War' (between North & South Vietnam)? "

A pox on both their houses for their ignorance. The leaders on both sides care more for their ideals, than their children's futures. I fear the concept of 'Forever War'  (though I hope I am wrong) holds sway over the region. I suspect, should the state of Isreal cease to exist, the Shia & Sunni would then return to their own 'Civil War', changing nothing in the region but the actors.

It seems to me, that we who would wage war, too oft forget, the most to suffer are the least able to cope with it...our children.  I remember my own experience of the Terror' of war, but I knowingly volunteered for that, which I even 40 years later still suffer from. That however, is my Karma.  Children who ask for nothing but love, affection and security, instead, are cursed with the wrenching memories of 'Terror',  without the reasoning ability to begin to understand what is happening to their world.

Curse us all...

Disclaimer:
Please understand, that while I expound upon the subjects of this thread, my feelings apply to all of humankind that retard our evolutionary progress. I take the side of only the children in this post and none  of the beligerents (including my own country). My use of the word 'Terror', is in the sense of feelings, not tactics.

AYS,

J


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: von Staudt on 14 January 2009, 16:58:15
Koen,

They are closer than you think!  Keep a low profile. :(

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/01/022547.php


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 14 January 2009, 18:31:09
Koen,

They are closer than you think!  Keep a low profile. :(

[url]http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/01/022547.php[/url]



Always, if contributing in a heated debate by qutoing, check your authors (or the organs/organs owners where they publish):

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0306/west032006.php3

http://townhall.com/columnists/DianaWest/2008/12/12/where_were_you_born,_obama

http://mediamatters.org/items/200806240006

http://www.unitedfeatures.com/?title=Bio:Diana%20West

I think you will get the idea, another interest group mingling with facts.

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Tanker on 14 January 2009, 19:34:37
Here is a little "mind experiment" for ya'll:   ???

Scenario #1:  Suddenly the Palastinians throw their arms into the sea, and declare a unilateral end to the fighting, and agree to recognize Israel's right to exist.  What happens next?

Scenaio #2:  Suddenly the Israelis throw their arms into the sea, open the borders, declare a unilateral end to the fighting and agree to give the Palastinians Gaza and the West Bank for their own state.  What happens next?

Post what you think will happen in each case.



Interesting take.

Based on my firm belief that this is all about the money, (we are talking the serious stuff here: Hundreds of millions Euros/$ and related commisions), I would guess something like the following to happen:

Re Sc1: The Palestinian Leader deciding that will get killed. A big terrorist actioin that kills a few hundred Israelis will take place on Israeli soil and will be auto-attributed by a formerly unknown fighter formation (of cause, this would have been staged by Iran, Syria and Israel services together). Israel will be pressed by its citizens to retaliate in force, and the thingy goes on.

Re SC2: The Isarel Leader deciding that will get killed. A series of terrorist actions that kill a few hundred Palestinians will take place and will be traced back to some radical settler group formerly unknown (of cause, this would have been staged by Iran, Syria and Israel services together). Some Palestinians will retaliate in force, and the thingy goes on.

Rattler


Money?  What are you on about? 

BTW Ehud Barak, while Prime Minister, offered Arafat Scenario #2 minus throwing the arms into the sea.  Arafat, as ever never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Koen on 14 January 2009, 19:35:29
Koen,

They are closer than you think!  Keep a low profile. :(

[url]http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/01/022547.php[/url]



Brussels has always been an easy target for locating agents or militants....some 130 nationalities are present...no one looks at you if you wear foreign clothes or such....


few weeks ago they finally arrested a woman who was very active recruiting militants for Al-Qaeda..with even her own website and such....

***************

sentimental mode on:
just saw new footages in a Gaza clinic on the children department...whatever side...this is very very bad...sorry guys....I feel bad when I see this...
sci-fi movies as 'The day the earth stood still' are very to the point...human kind doesn't deserve earth...
what if all this money, manhours and effort were put into positive things?
sentimental mode off


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 14 January 2009, 19:51:22
I guess my perspective is a bit twisted (as many of my ideas seem to be), If I recall correctly, both sides can trace their ancestry to Abraham.



Twisted perspectives are a good base to start from,

This said, Abraham was the guy that was willing to sacrifice his own son for an assumed wish of god, and would have done so had god not stopped him in his tracks just in time... What does this tell us (combined with "his own people" and "the elected few")?

Actually, I think starig discussions on that base won´t lead anywhere a we really dont see a conflict of religions, but of autocrats.

That would make the whole 2k+ year conflict, a civil war between cousins. (How retarded is that?) One of the things we used to say in 'Nam was;  "Why are we getting involved in their 'Civil War' (between North & South Vietnam)? "



sic, see above.

A pox on both their houses for their ignorance. The leaders on both sides care more for their ideals, than their children's futures. I fear the concept of 'Forever War'  (though I hope I am wrong) holds sway over the region. I suspect, should the state of Isreal cease to exist, the Shia & Sunni would then return to their own 'Civil War', changing nothing in the region but the actors.



Indeed.

It seems to me, that we who would wage war, too oft(en?, Rattler) forget, the most to suffer are the least able to cope with it...our children.  I remember my own experience of the Terror' of war, but I knowingly volunteered for that, which I even 40 years later still suffer from. That however, is my Karma.  Children who ask for nothing but love, affection and security, instead, are cursed with the wrenching memories of 'Terror',  without the reasoning ability to begin to understand what is happening to their world.

Curse us all...



Not everybody is forgetting this, and certainly not the true soldier-hearted soldiers or their commanders on Israels side, to my sincere soul pain I have not been able to find anything voiced from the palestinian side along the same line, though (shministim = conscious objectors, refuseniks, and others):

http://www.fmep.org/analysis/analysis/pilots-letter
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124867
http://www.couragetorefuse.org/english/combatants_letter.asp
http://links.org.au/node/851
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1048054.html
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090106_israeli_voices_for_peace/?ln


Disclaimer:
Please understand, that while I expound upon the subjects of this thread, my feelings apply to all of humankind that retard our evolutionary progress. I take the side of only the children in this post and none  of the beligerents (including my own country). My use of the word 'Terror', is in the sense of feelings, not tactics.

AYS,

J



Understood and subscribed, and more so than you might think (there is a person on this forum who will know what I am refering to, and it is another proof for my side in our long standing discussion, sorry for the cheap shot, friend!).

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 14 January 2009, 19:59:30
-snip-
Money?  What are you on about? 
-snip-



As already stated on the first day (and as I had assumed you had read everything in this thread sorry for not repeating myself): http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/index.php?topic=531.msg1158#msg1158, and as quoted there: http://www.airdisaster.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1877#p24321 :

It is all about cynical money making on both sides.

My take,

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Mad Russian on 14 January 2009, 20:27:37
-snip-
Money?  What are you on about? 
-snip-



As already stated on the first day (and as I had assumed you had read everything in this thread sorry for not repeating myself): [url]http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/index.php?topic=531.msg1158#msg1158,[/url] and as quoted there: [url]http://www.airdisaster.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1877#p24321[/url] :

It is all about cynical money making on both sides.

My take,

Rattler



Money and power. The desire to be the ones that tell others what to do.

Unfortunately that's what makes politicians and governments work.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Tanker on 14 January 2009, 21:27:33
-snip-
Money?  What are you on about? 
-snip-



As already stated on the first day (and as I had assumed you had read everything in this thread sorry for not repeating myself): [url]http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/index.php?topic=531.msg1158#msg1158,[/url] and as quoted there: [url]http://www.airdisaster.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1877#p24321[/url] :

It is all about cynical money making on both sides.

My take,

Rattler



I have read it from the beginning but I'm not about to chase after every extraneous web link posted here. 

How are the Isrealis making money out of fighting Hamas in Gaza?  For that matter how is Hamas making money by fighting Isreal?

You really have not explained that, or I've missed it completely.

Are you talking about getting contributions from their respective supporters?


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: von Staudt on 14 January 2009, 23:10:18
Koen,

They are closer than you think!  Keep a low profile. :(

[url]http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/01/022547.php[/url]



Always, if contributing in a heated debate by qutoing, check your authors (or the organs/organs owners where they publish):

[url]http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0306/west032006.php3[/url]

[url]http://townhall.com/columnists/DianaWest/2008/12/12/where_were_you_born,_obama[/url]

[url]http://mediamatters.org/items/200806240006[/url]

[url]http://www.unitedfeatures.com/?title=Bio:Diana%20West[/url]

I think you will get the idea, another interest group mingling with facts.

Rattler



I posted this because in an earlier post to Koen I was not sure if Belgum had had any unrest similar to France, Germany, or the Neatherlands.  I found this article that seems to confirm that, yes, Belgum is in trouble too.

I see the usual "kill the messenger" stuff in your reply, but what has any of this got to do with the facts of the story?  Can you refute them or not?  I didn't think so.   ::)


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 14 January 2009, 23:26:20
I have read it from the beginning but I'm not about to chase after every extraneous web link posted here. 

How are the Isrealis making money out of fighting Hamas in Gaza?  For that matter how is Hamas making money by fighting Isreal?

You really have not explained that, or I've missed it completely.

Are you talking about getting contributions from their respective supporters?


Nope.

Hamas: EU has sent in some 500 million Euros to Gaza since Israel left, since the new war they have already raised another 150 millions (as Spanish tax payer I contribute to our 29 millions guaranteed today). What is the average comission of the people that distribute the money? I think 15% is a safe guess (if I compare it to Iraq or Afghanistan or Africa), that is 65 millions Euros distributed between the leaders. Better than smuggling drugs.

Israel: How much ordenance/planes/vehicles have been sold to Israel over the last 5 yrs? How much ordenance has to be replaced by the US for the ongoing war? My guess (numbers of 2007: 2.5 bn$ Turkey, 25 bn$ US, 12 bn$ China, go google "arms deal volume israel") is a good 30.000 Million $, If Israelis are only as corrupt as we here in Spain (and nothing suggests that, they look way worse), that is 3% comisions on the way = 300 Million $ in comissions distributed between Israeli leaders. *MUCH* better than smuggling drugs.

Egypt: Lives from the black market in Gaza that is following the blockade, example: ! kg sugar in Egypt is 2 Euros, in Gaza is 80 Euros, again, drug smuggling is nothing against it.

etc, etc.

You think with such sums involved anyone would want to stop? Well, get real, then, those ppl do business and dont count corpses.

Just for the record and t put it into perspective: 60.000 ppl daily on this planet die for plain hunger. 200 Million families live under 1$ a day on this planet. Arms deals on this planet raise 3.000 Million $ daily (!).

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 14 January 2009, 23:36:35
I have read it from the beginning but I'm not about to chase after every extraneous web link posted here.  -snip-



As this link was the substantial part of the post (and linked to a statement *I* made): Meaning: I dont give a s... what you/others write, nor want to read it. The "extraneous" is your interpretation, it led to the following statement (pls explain the "extraneous" in this context if you care?):

Quote from:  Rattler
...-snip-
Now, as I don´t believe the Israeli government is stupid and not aware of that, why are they doing it? Same goes for Hamas: Why do they keep launching Kassams at Israel when they know the response? The answer is simple: "Cui bono".

All those guys are plain cynical calculators: Israel needs its Palestinian terrorists, the Palestinians need their Israel state terrorism, Egypt needs both, simply to make sure this does not finish ever and they can keep making serious money from the situation.

All those governments and leader structures over there are super corrupt ([url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6276071.stm, [/url]  [url]http://www.phrmg.org/Corruption%20in%20the%20Palestinian%20Authority.htm, [/url]  [url]http://www.business-anti-corruption.com/normal.asp?pageid=143[/url]) and their citizens lives and wellbeing don´t count zilch for them as long as they can make their cuts on arms deals, take their part of International Help funds, control goods flow to Gaza and keep up a well working black market with hilarious prizes for everything, etc. etc.

FWIW,
Rattler



Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 14 January 2009, 23:53:14
I posted this because in an earlier post to Koen I was not sure if Belgum had had any unrest similar to France, Germany, or the Neatherlands.  I found this article that seems to confirm that, yes, Belgum is in trouble too.

I see the usual "kill the messenger" stuff in your reply, but what has any of this got to do with the facts of the story?  Can you refute them or not?  I didn't think so.   ::)


Nope, the facts are facts, after all, and the lady sure does her research well.

It is the interpretation of the facts that I wanted to shed a light on.

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Tanker on 15 January 2009, 03:19:28
You don't give an s... what others write?  Very classy.  Well, that just leads to others not giving an mier.. for what you write.

Conspiracy theories are easy to subscribe to.  Are there corrupt Isreali arms merchants and officials?  I assume there are.  But arms trading and commissions won't keep the war going.  You are naive if you really think that.

On the other hand, the only raison d'etre of Hamas is confrontation with Isreal.  If that goes away, their reason for being goes away.  Who has the greater motivation to keep conflict going?

As much as you try to obfuscate it, at the most fundamental level this conflict is about radical Islam wishing to destroy Isreal.  You never seem to want to address this issue.

You made a very convenient answer to von Staudt's mind experiment earlier.  I think it is obvious that if Hamas and Hezbollah (and Iran stayed away) disappeared tomorrow, that the more moderate Palestinians and Isreal would make peace and a 2 state solution would probably be in place within a few years.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 15 January 2009, 07:15:49

I have read it from the beginning but I'm not about to chase after every extraneous web link posted here.  -snip-


Quote from: Rattler
Meaning: I dont give a s... what you/others write, nor want to read it.


You don't give an s... what others write?  Very classy.  Well, that just leads to others not giving an mier.. for what you write.


LOL, I was citing (and explaining) what *you* meant saying with that, nice try to turn that round...

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 15 January 2009, 07:35:37

Conspiracy theories are easy to subscribe to.  Are there corrupt Isreali arms merchants and officials?  I assume there are.  But arms trading and commissions won't keep the war going.  You are naive if you really think that.


I am talking from a serious background If I think terrorists are that cynical: After the negotiation with the ETA Terrorists and the Spanish Government had failed and the ceasefire was broken, it later came out that our Government had offered to all terroriss that would let the armgs go 1500,-- Euros monthly for a period of 5 years and tax free (that is 2.5x the minimal salary in Spain). Answer: "Oh, no, thank you sir, but with the fright our bombs sow we earn significantly more through revolutionary tax...". Of cause the official ETA theme is the liberation of their sacred territory from Spanish/French occupation...

As much as you try to obfuscate it, at the most fundamental level this conflict is about radical Islam wishing to destroy Isreal.  You never seem to want to address this issue.


I dont try to obfuscate or avoid addressing anything, I simply dont think this is a correct interpretation, I see this concept as just lip service (see above) to motivate the uninformed followers/partisans on both sides.

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: stoffel on 15 January 2009, 13:05:38
Well, there are no REAL troubles here in the Netherlands.
All you see is (mostly) left wing supported groups of Moroccans screaming and jelling anti Jewish slogans.
They also get away with it :(
Once they try to do things against the law I am sure  they will be dealt with.
A lot of people are allready fed up with these guys, terrorizing entire neighbourhoods.
What you dont see in the media are the people who are against these terrorists.
Dozens of gatherings where more people show up to support Israel and its citizens.
Its just not political "right" to stand up against those  "poor" terrorists.

People tend to forget that the average Moslim terrorist only wants to kill us all.
Its either pro or against, being islamic or dead.
As a civilian in a western country you are a legitimate target in their eyes.
Its time more people  understand its that black and white for the average terrorist.
There is no reason to believe they will not hurt you if you voted against a sitting government, they kill indiscriminately, look to what happened in India......
Whats even worse is that these people can hide /make use of our laws while they are living above these same laws, and dont respect them.

Just my 2 cents.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Tanker on 15 January 2009, 14:38:43

Conspiracy theories are easy to subscribe to.  Are there corrupt Isreali arms merchants and officials?  I assume there are.  But arms trading and commissions won't keep the war going.  You are naive if you really think that.


I am talking from a serious background If I think terrorists are that cynical: After the negotiation with the ETA Terrorists and the Spanish Government had failed and the ceasefire was broken, it later came out that our Government had offered to all terroriss that would let the armgs go 1500,-- Euros monthly for a period of 5 years and tax free (that is 2.5x the minimal salary in Spain). Answer: "Oh, no, thank you sir, but with the fright our bombs sow we earn significantly more through revolutionary tax...". Of cause the official ETA theme is the liberation of their sacred territory from Spanish/French occupation...

As much as you try to obfuscate it, at the most fundamental level this conflict is about radical Islam wishing to destroy Isreal.  You never seem to want to address this issue.


I dont try to obfuscate or avoid addressing anything, I simply dont think this is a correct interpretation, I see this concept as just lip service (see above) to motivate the uninformed followers/partisans on both sides.

Rattler


But you ascribe the same motivation to each side in the conflict we are speaking of.  Too easy, too simplistic.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 15 January 2009, 20:39:45
But you ascribe the same motivation to each side in the conflict we are speaking of.  Too easy, too simplistic.


As another distinguished member or this circle already said (interpretation by yours truly), motives for anything are the same through cultures and ideologies: Greed and Power (Edit: On 2nd thought, sex also counts even if not falling under the 2nd category). Simplistic? Possibly. But, from my POV, true.

Nuff said,

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: von Staudt on 15 January 2009, 22:50:10
Well, there are no REAL troubles here in the Netherlands.
All you see is (mostly) left wing supported groups of Moroccans screaming and jelling anti Jewish slogans.
They also get away with it :(
Once they try to do things against the law I am sure  they will be dealt with.
A lot of people are allready fed up with these guys, terrorizing entire neighbourhoods.
What you dont see in the media are the people who are against these terrorists.
Dozens of gatherings where more people show up to support Israel and its citizens.
Its just not political "right" to stand up against those  "poor" terrorists.

(snip)


It is good to know that the good guys are pushing back.  The people of the Neatherlands are known for their tolerance (except when you walk in a bike lane in Amsterdam! ;D  )  The "Disadvantaged Angry Youths" are giving you (and the rest of the EU) a bad name and effecting turisim because the media is so biased and don't tell the whole story.

Hang in there! :)


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Tanker on 16 January 2009, 00:03:55
I wonder what would happen if a cartoon of Mohammed was published, or a movie critical of Islam was made.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 16 January 2009, 00:16:19
I wonder what would happen if a cartoon of Mohammed was published, or a movie critical of Islam was made.


Cheap shot (! NOTE the subtlety), but really expanding our view on things and why they are as they are.

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Mad Russian on 16 January 2009, 00:31:21
The reaction the to Danish cartoon worldwide was interesting. Here in the US we commonly make cartoons of everyone from God on down to the dog that owns your house and lets you live it to serve them....

I think that was a wakeup call for the world about just how serious the Islamic issues are.

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Tanker on 16 January 2009, 03:17:55
I can recommend the book Infidel by Ali Hirsi.  She was involved in the making of that movie in Holland for which the director was brutally murdered and she, a member of parliament was forced to go into hiding.

I actually spoke to some Dutch people here in this country that faulted her for opening her mouth.  They seemed very afraid of the islamics in Holland.
Didn't they learn anything about opposing facism from the 30's and 40's?

Who knows Rattler, if it keeps up you might have some Al Qaida boys living right down the street from you. ;)  After all they do want al andalus back.  You might get radicalized yourself. >:(


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: von Staudt on 18 January 2009, 20:10:56
I posted this because in an earlier post to Koen I was not sure if Belgum had had any unrest similar to France, Germany, or the Neatherlands.  I found this article that seems to confirm that, yes, Belgum is in trouble too.

I see the usual "kill the messenger" stuff in your reply, but what has any of this got to do with the facts of the story?  Can you refute them or not?  I didn't think so.   ::)


Nope, the facts are facts, after all, and the lady sure does her research well.

It is the interpretation of the facts that I wanted to shed a light on.

Rattler


What interpretation?  Facts are facts.  "shed light" away.  I'm waiting.   :)


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 19 January 2009, 08:34:15
I posted this because in an earlier post to Koen I was not sure if Belgum had had any unrest similar to France, Germany, or the Neatherlands.  I found this article that seems to confirm that, yes, Belgum is in trouble too.

I see the usual "kill the messenger" stuff in your reply, but what has any of this got to do with the facts of the story?  Can you refute them or not?  I didn't think so.   ::)


Nope, the facts are facts, after all, and the lady sure does her research well.

It is the interpretation of the facts that I wanted to shed a light on.

Rattler


What interpretation?  Facts are facts.  "shed light" away.  I'm waiting.   :)


Example:

Fact: The volume of a glass is occupied for 50% by water

Interpretation: The glass is half empty

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: stoffel on 19 January 2009, 11:00:44
Negative thinking Rattler....

Its half full :) :D

Sorry I couldnt refuse to make that joke  ::) ;)


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 19 January 2009, 12:30:23
Q.E.D. !  :D

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Mad Russian on 19 January 2009, 14:58:53
Or you just have half a glass to start with....................

Good Hunting.

MR


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Alan65 on 19 January 2009, 16:51:18
Have you checked to confirm it's water?


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: von Staudt on 19 January 2009, 20:46:25
Quote
Quote
Quote
Nope, the facts are facts, after all, and the lady sure does her research well.

It is the interpretation of the facts that I wanted to shed a light on.

Rattler


What interpretation?  Facts are facts.  "shed light" away.  I'm waiting.   :)


Example:

Fact: The volume of a glass is occupied for 50% by water

Interpretation: The glass is half empty

Rattler


OK.  I give up.  With logic like that I don't have a chance.   ::)


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 21 January 2009, 14:02:40
Mods: Feel free to move/copy to the games section)

Now that a cease fire is in place, we can take (with the Jerusalem Post) a look of what wargame designers make of the conflict:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950856374&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: von Staudt on 23 January 2009, 17:14:24
Well, there are no REAL troubles here in the Netherlands.
All you see is (mostly) left wing supported groups of Moroccans screaming and jelling anti Jewish slogans.
They also get away with it :(
Once they try to do things against the law I am sure  they will be dealt with.
A lot of people are allready fed up with these guys, terrorizing entire neighbourhoods.
What you dont see in the media are the people who are against these terrorists.
Dozens of gatherings where more people show up to support Israel and its citizens.
Its just not political "right" to stand up against those  "poor" terrorists.

People tend to forget that the average Moslim terrorist only wants to kill us all.
Its either pro or against, being islamic or dead.
As a civilian in a western country you are a legitimate target in their eyes.
Its time more people  understand its that black and white for the average terrorist.
There is no reason to believe they will not hurt you if you voted against a sitting government, they kill indiscriminately, look to what happened in India......
Whats even worse is that these people can hide /make use of our laws while they are living above these same laws, and dont respect them.

Just my 2 cents.




This doesn't look at all:

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/01/022630.php


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: stoffel on 23 January 2009, 17:21:42
yeah,

Its a left wing supported lawsuit.
Wilders probably isnt able to finance this, so he might be forced stop his political work.
A simple way to get rid of someone who might get thousands of voters behind him.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Tanker on 23 January 2009, 18:22:22
Good to see freedom of thought and speech is alive and well in Holland. :'(  It's a shame that the altruism of the Dutch has been turned against them.  I hope it's a lesson well learned.

Another article with a little more detail

http://www.city-journal.org/2009/eon0122bb.html (http://www.city-journal.org/2009/eon0122bb.html)


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: stoffel on 23 January 2009, 18:27:58
I know... :(
But there is nothing we can do against it........


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Tanker on 23 January 2009, 18:31:24
I know... :(
But there is nothing we can do against it........


Of course there is.  Grass roots organizing to educate the public and throw out the fuzzy headed liberal politicians who put you in this mess and would like to see you slaves to Sharia law.  Contribute to the legal defense of Wilders.  "Evil is done when good men do nothing".  Some polls show that more than 2/3 of the Dutch don't think Sharia is compatible with a modern Europe.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: von Staudt on 24 January 2009, 01:26:11
I am surprised that only 2/3 think Sharia law is not good for the Neatherlands.  That means that 1/3 think it's OK!   :-\  That's scary.   :(


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Tanker on 24 January 2009, 06:06:40
Polls are like statistics.  You can make them say whatever you like.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 24 January 2009, 09:00:39
And I think the latter third had no clue what Sharia was and how to prepare it for supper...

Seriously, I was completely shocked last year when I found out that 90% of my co-citizens here think that the religion in Israel is Islam... I had found out accidentally in a conversatioin with a normally well educated lady and, taking it from there, making a mini poll asking everybody I met for the next week "Do you know what religion the people in Israel have?"... I bet if you try that around your friends you will get a big surprise...

Basically, people dont know very much for starters in general but then share their most dedicated opinions freely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WALIARHHLII (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WALIARHHLII)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANTDkfkoBaI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANTDkfkoBaI)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftg1EtdgbHI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftg1EtdgbHI)

and not all soldiers are geniuses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS7O3mmPv_w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS7O3mmPv_w)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8fjR0yRBqI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8fjR0yRBqI)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtyHjzqCURI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtyHjzqCURI)

and, finally, one for German speakers (subtiteled):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFpyl5B0v0g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFpyl5B0v0g)

Rattler





Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: antonic on 24 January 2009, 09:20:36
People are entitled to their opinions, if I dont share them (or they dont like mine) thats OK as I know I am right ! ;D


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: FACman on 24 January 2009, 16:50:25
When I first started watching these clips, I was embarrassed to be American. After I watched them all, I was embarrassed to be a Human Being. It is no wonder, the foul politicians can so easily lead us down such paths as we now find ourselves.

mea culpa
mea culpa
mea maxima culpa

*shakes head in utter disbelief*

J

as for the title of this thread...I say, "It never ended"


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: Rattler on 26 January 2009, 11:01:49
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4325805/Gaza-phosphorus-casualties-relive-Israels-three-week-war.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4325805/Gaza-phosphorus-casualties-relive-Israels-three-week-war.html)

Rattler


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: MontyB on 23 November 2012, 00:32:32
I figured I would pull a necro on this one because it seemed so final when the first post was made back in 2008 now here we are 4 years later and what has changed?

Last week we heard Israel preparing to destroy Hamas to make them "howl for peace" and today we are back to business as usual.

I am starting to think the whole Israel/Palestine thing is just a giant Nigerian scam where both sides have decided they need the war to continue so Israel can suck more money out of the USA and Hamas can fleece Iran.


Title: Re: It has started....
Post by: stoffel on 23 November 2012, 17:37:40
Actually the situation is more complicated.
Today I read this comment in the Elsevier, one of our countries best magazines by a moslim writer.

Story:

Why dont we see an Arabic spring among the Palestinians?

There is a deadly game going on in Gaza, history repeats itself.
The western media and the arabic neighbours of Israel act as if these rocket attacks and the normal Israeli response to them are world shocking and brutal.
In fact they want us to believe the situation is worse than in Syria where hundreds of people die each week.

Holy month Mohoram,

Last week dozens of people got killed by a suicide bomber attack in Afghanistan, we didnt see anything about this action in the news.
Coming weeks we can expect more such attacks in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and Pakistan because the Moharam started.
During the Moharam the Sjiets commemorate the dead of Imam Hussein.
Are we comparing the numbers of dead in Gaza to those in Syria and Afghanistan? No.... but it gives an idea how the media exagorate the events in Gaza.

Islamic Jihad
We dont know exactly why this faction ( started the rocket attacks against Israel) started the recent hostilities but there may be a good explanation for it.
Soon Hamas got involved as well, Hamas rules the Gaza strip and had to join Jihads efforts  because they would lose support if they dont.
Israel holds Hamas into account because they are the ruling party in Gaza.
The Jihad has ties with Iran just like Hamas.
Recently Hamas leaders visited the congres held by Turkish premier Erdogan, this was a clear kick in the face to Iran.
Also because Hamas tried to raise funds in Egypt and the other gulfregion countries ( most of whom are not friendly to Iran)
Hamas also supports their islamic brothers in Syria ( This despite the anger it caused by the Syrian government and Iran)

Conclusion:

Jihads actions can severly damage and weaken Hamas. When Hamas gets weak Jihad can take over control in Gaza.
Hamas suffered allready due to succesfull Israeli police actions and the recently build wall by Israel.
One of the reasons they need money from elswhere. ( Egypt)
A big problem for Iran and most Islamic countries neighboring  Israel are the rocket attacks, why? The Israeli Iron Dome can be put to the test and as it looks it probably works.
The system can intercept small rockets so it will probably able to intercept any bigger (nuclear) missile.
A peace agreement is thus not in favor of the Palestinians but for Iran who dont want to see a working missile interception system in Israel for the ovious reasons. Thats another reason why they support the peacetalks, allthough not openly.
Soon both factions will thus run out of rockets and out of money because they offended their masters ( Iran mainly)
The victims are the ordinary civilians in Gaza, the working Palestinian who wants to raise his family and who wants peace.
The militants put them in the line and in harms way to keep their own war going, by doing so the militants keep the pressure on.
By helding their community in hostage they keep them controllable.
An Arabic spring by the ordinary Palestinians is a good solution to bring peace with Israel but the militatant groups will do all they can to prevent that.