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Author Topic: It has started....  (Read 128835 times)
stoffel
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« on: 28 December 2008, 17:13:10 »
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Israel made its first move yesterday to stop the ongoing terrorist actions from Hamas, I hope they will solve the problem with Hamas soon and swift with no remorse.

Or as a friend said:

Yesterday justice,
Today the decision.
Tomorrow...peace, hopefully.
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« Reply #1 on: 28 December 2008, 17:33:17 »
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Sadly we enough we can't say that yesterday was the start of it...it's been ongoing longer then anyone can remember...

but this surely will be the start of another bloody and destructive episode...remember...elections are coming up in Israel...

as result of the overkill more people will join Hamas or any other anti-Israel movement

Hamas docu: LINK

* until now 120-170 dead, 1 of them is Hamas-police Major-General Tawfik Jaber

* Al Aksa TV has been bombed, broadcasting continues using a mobile unit

* mosk near the Shifa hospital in Gaza-city bombed

* in attackin Hamas but keeping(?) the population friendly: food transports are allowed to enter Gaza and wounded Palestinian are allowed into Israelian hospitals

* 6500 reserves have been drafted by Israel (sat:2000 and sun:4500)
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Rattler
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« Reply #2 on: 29 December 2008, 14:16:55 »
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Folks, I have a very different take on that:

- It is either a war or not.

- IF it is a war, then the guys w/o the a/c have all the right to emply their own intelligent bombs w/o being labelled terrorists automatically

- IF you should NOT label that a war, then see my stance over here (English): http://www.airdisaster.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1877#p24321

Actually, it is us serious people that - taking stances - fuel the money making of those d..kheads on all sides involved, a shame.

Kind regards,

Rattler
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« Reply #3 on: 29 December 2008, 15:03:09 »
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Rattler...I never said that it's NOT a war...

what I said is that this is not the beginning of a war/conflict but just the start of another episode...

you can't tell anymore who are the terrorists in this conflict...

the easiest way is to say 'they fired the rockets' but NOT to wonder 'why did they fire rockets?'

do you need a global reason to hate Israel when your son got blown away by a bomb? no, that fact on itself is enough reason to do what you feel should've done

Does it help to look who threw the first stone? No, ofcourse not....

Does it help the conflict to answers Israel bombings by firing more rockets?

The only result that will come out of this episode, the same as with the previous episodes, is more hate and more reasons to continue this fight.
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Herr Hauptman
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« Reply #4 on: 29 December 2008, 15:28:16 »
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Let them fight it out.All the negative western outlook on the Palastinians.How would you like it if a great Empire decided to give your land to another ethnic group of people that are always trying to settle the land you have left?The Isrealites in the Old Testament took that land through a great series of amazing victorys.They will need some more to keep it now.
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Rattler
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« Reply #5 on: 29 December 2008, 15:33:45 »
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Update:

Spanish TV has in the noon news that Israel cut down the electricity, which means the hospitals (short of gas) will soon run out to be able to treat the more than 1^200 injured, 600 of them critically injured.

Also, Israel today announced that this was just the beginning of a heavy bombing campaign and have, this morning, bombed a ffew refugee camps, casualtities yet unknown.

Spanish TV now titles the reports with "Genocide on Palestinians" (I doubt German or US TV will follow).

FWIW,

Rattler
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« Reply #6 on: 29 December 2008, 15:54:57 »
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Thomas Steg, the German spokesman for its government, said that it's Israels right to defend itself...
The same guy said that Hamas was the one to blame.

*****

Hamas asked help from the president of the United Arabique Emirates, sjeik Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahayan, for help. He promised humanitarian aid.

*****

Condoleezza Rice declared that Hamas is responsible for the new war.

*****

next to the draft of 6500 reserves there is a build-up of infantry and tanks near the border

*****

Ayatollah Khamenei, the religious leader of Iran, called on all muslims to help/defend the women and children in Gaza. He who dies trying to do so will become a martyr.
Iran called today a day of national mourning.

*****

Turkey called it a 'crime against humanity'

*****

and the political background:
*february 10th is the day of elections and the opossition leader, Netanyahu, is winning votes with his anti-Hamas talk.
*and the newly elected USA president who will be less anti-Palestinians.
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Koen
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« Reply #7 on: 29 December 2008, 19:58:19 »
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sources say:

345 dead
1600 wounded

Oxfam, Medics without Frontiers & Amnesty International speak of an unsees humanitarian disaster

members of Hamas & Abu Tir targeted and killed, ofcourse with surrounding civilians

electricity and water cut-off in many places

medicins are almost unavailable in hospitals, medics withour frontiers giving out their reserves

gate opened between Egypt and Gaza: medicins and food unloaded at the gate, trucks not allowed to enter

Dan Harel, Israeli general, declares that this is the total war, annihilation of Hamas infrastructure, members, rocketlaunchers and all material used by Hamas.
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stoffel
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« Reply #8 on: 29 December 2008, 21:18:41 »
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Convention of geneva is quite simple, if you target a country or a regular army without being recognizable as a combatant yourself, than you are a terrorist.
If you hide behind women and children or put your weapons in hospitals/schools/ shops or whereever civilians can get hurt than you are responsible yourself  for those peoples dead when an army attacks these targets.

Now I have to say that I allways look at the deads with some unbelief as if they are innocent, I consider men between 16 and 40 not as innocent on first sight.
And that is the biggest problem with terrorists, take away the weapons and its an "innocent victim".

Its a difficult situation, HAMAS has had several chances to ease the tension.
Israel cannot do anything else than hit them hard.
I have spoken to many people in Israel, palestinians in Israel have a tough time but compared to their brothers in the arab countries they are much better off.
At least they have a chance to work and live.
Look at Eilat and other big Israeli places where all people live together, most of them have a job and a living, they dont care about war.
Hiw different is the situation for their brothers in the arab countries who live in refugeecamps and have nothing.
Hamas and the other fractions keep their  population unemployed and unschooled.
Main reason: if people are unsatified or unhappy they can be drafted very easy for the "cause", easy to point the finger to Israel as the agressor.

I think this war can be solved only if either the Israelis or the arabs are dead and there is noone left to fight.


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Rattler
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« Reply #9 on: 29 December 2008, 22:02:25 »
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-snip- ...or put your weapons in hospitals/schools/ shops or whereever civilians can get hurt than you are responsible yourself  for those peoples dead when an army attacks these targets. -snip-


I am not sure you are aware of the infrastructural situation in Gaza strip (I have been there): The strip is very small, just 4-6x30km, a total of 340 sqkm, thats just slightly more than Amsterdam City (220 sqkm), populated with 1.5 million inhabitants + 1 million refugees (thats 3.5x the population density of A´dam).

It simply is impossible for the government infrasturcture, police stations, the university, etc  - those were the  targets up to now -  not to be not surrounded by civilians. We are tlaking a democratically elected government here that is being attacked (and those election were furthered and supported by US and UN) just because Israel did not like the outcome of the elections. The people targeting Israel with rockets enter through tunnels and dont live within the strip (and hence dont hide within civil populaation), so bombarding the government installations wont do anything but hurt just those (ok, so Israel has killed 80 police officers, what about your Geneva Convention in this respect?).

Check details and political status for yourself: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html#People


* gaza_sat.jpg (43.33 KB, 363x427 - viewed 363 times.)
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stoffel
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« Reply #10 on: 29 December 2008, 22:40:16 »
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I know most of them come from other places, but its the responsibility of the Gaza government to stop them.
If they dont do that with all the powers they have, they are  responsible and become a legitimate target themselves.
They even acted against fellow palestinians like Fatah, only with one objective become the only power in charge.
There is no doubt that this so called government has strong ties with HAMAS or better is controlled by HAMAS.
Dont forget that a Hamas fighter will see you as a legitimate target because  your country has troops in Afghanistan.
Even though you are against them or not.

So here an eye for an eye is valid.
They have  been around for too long killing innocent civilians , and now they get there share.

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« Reply #11 on: 30 December 2008, 04:11:22 »
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The same tactics are used by terrorists worldwide and have for as long as they have been effective.

Shoot from a friendly or neutral area, then quickly leave. When the targeted people shoot back they hit none of those doing this only those that are living there in the first place.

The locals have a huge responsibility for the actions of those that fire from their soil. They know Israel will retaliate so they need to police their own organizations. All the dead and wounded are on the Hamas leaders.

Now, as to who started what and who fired first? There is no accounting for that. It simply goes on until one side has had enough of the smaller engagements and wants a bigger fight to knock out the other side for awhile.

This will all be over when there is ONE PERSON LEFT STANDING....and not before then.

Good Hunting.

MR
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« Reply #12 on: 30 December 2008, 17:25:07 »
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May the whole world go blind from 'all'  the eye for an eye rationalizations. mayhaps war will end when we are all blind and can no longer target our supposed foes.
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« Reply #13 on: 4 January 2009, 19:59:10 »
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Latest News: The ground war has started...



An interesting article on the LL´s from the Lebanon war here:

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/12/smart-takes-on.html

Just FYI,

Rattler
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« Reply #14 on: 4 January 2009, 20:28:44 »
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yes and the American Senate approves...

Bush says that the cause of this violence is 100% Hamas

Also he declares that EVERYBODY should work against HAMAS to make sure that they will accept a cease-fire without firing rockets...

ofcourse that's easily said when you know in advance they'll never accept this

bodycount: 437 including women and children.........

50 AV's reaching the cityborders of Gaza-city
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« Reply #15 on: 6 January 2009, 21:23:45 »
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2 UN-controlled hospitals were hit...minimal 40 dead people...

AND

the UN gave the GPS coordinates of those 2 hospitals to make sure they weren't bombarded...

Belgian, together with other European countries, is talking to Israel to take children away and give them the needed medical help IN Belgium...

Again, war is easier then peace.

Sending soldiers to fight is easier then helping victims!

Bush, Rice? Where is the humanitarian help?

European doctors in hospitals declare that they are out of everything...beds, medicins and all other lifesaving material....

First filmed pictures are broadcasted...from official Israeli sources...no victims ofcourse...no blood...no children...yeah, right....

other kind of pictures: LINK





the result:
the first suicide killer ran under an Israeli armoured vehicle, more are certainly waiting....
people are loosing their houses, their parents, family and children...

every single family gives Hamas at least 1 soldier...pure for revenge...
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Mad Russian
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« Reply #16 on: 6 January 2009, 21:36:10 »
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Should we start posting pictures of Israeli children, homes, families affected by Hamas rocket attacks?

To determine that this is all an Israeli issue is far too simple. There is no right and wrong here. It gets all mixed up over the pain and suffering that each side does to the other.

Good Hunting.

MR
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« Reply #17 on: 6 January 2009, 21:43:50 »
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Should we start posting pictures of Israeli children, homes, families affected by Hamas rocket attacks?

To determine that this is all an Israeli issue is far too simple. There is no right and wrong here. It gets all mixed up over the pain and suffering that each side does to the other.

Good Hunting.

MR



I didn't determine anything...never said that one side is more responsable then another...but pictures of children go right into my heart...

and there's no solution into excessive force...or whatever force...

as you wish: pictures from both sides: link
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Rattler
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« Reply #18 on: 6 January 2009, 23:30:17 »
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I have written a (partially mixed with stuff I wrote here) new statement on AD.info, instead of repeating myself I post the link  (http://www.airdisaster.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1877&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p24535)

The thread over there is quite heated (as was to expect) but fairly civilized, might be worht a read (dont take any stuff that might look like flaming too serioous, those guys go together a long time).

FWIW,

Rattler
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« Reply #19 on: 8 January 2009, 23:35:10 »
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more pics: LINK
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