NCO Club: Off Topic Discussions => The Chambers: Political Discussion Board => Topic started by: Koen on 9 March 2009, 15:43:01



Title: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: Koen on 9 March 2009, 15:43:01
http://www.inewsit.com/video/gallery/Footage-of-Israeli-Military-Shooting-Gaza-Farmers (http://www.inewsit.com/video/gallery/Footage-of-Israeli-Military-Shooting-Gaza-Farmers)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSECq3kxT4I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSECq3kxT4I)

got impressed by that young girl in the fluo-jacket....

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Israeli Military Shoot Gaza Farmer - 18th February 2009 Israeli forces shot a twenty year-old Palestinian farmer as he worked his land in the village of Al-Faraheen, east of Khan Younis in the Gaza Strip. International Human Rights Activists were accompanying the group of farmers at the time as they worked approximately 500m from the Green Line. Mohammad al - Breem, 20, was shot in the right leg as the farmers, together with the international Human Rights Activists, attempted to leave the area having worked on their land for 2 hours in full view of the Israeli forces situated along the Green Line. As the farmers were loading up the parsley and spinach from the agricultural lands shots were fired from Israeli forces on the border. Mohammad was shot in the right leg and evacuated, while still under fire, to hospital. International Human Rights Activists have repeatedly witnessed Palestinian farmers being shot at by Israeli forces as they attempt to work on agricultural land situated within 700m of the Green Line. On Tuesday 27th January 2009, in Al Faraheen, Israeli forces shot at several farmers, killing a 27 year old farmer.



Title: Re: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: FACman on 9 March 2009, 17:36:53
alas, just another open, festering  wound in the body of humanity, a fate we seemed doomed to relive at so called 'hot spots' across the globe. What poor examples we set for our children.

*shakes head in sadness*

J


Title: Re: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: Rattler on 10 March 2009, 02:48:27
Indeed.

Looks they are doing this for fun...? No other explanation obvious from the vid at least (though it might be staged).

And, as I have witnessed several times, women seem more courageous, thumbs up to the gal!

Rattler


Title: Re: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: bongotastic on 10 March 2009, 05:40:49
The video is sleek: with perfect English speakers, loudspeaker (with instructions from Arab to Israeli in English?) and a steady cameraman with his back to the sniper. Hard to tell what the full story is, but I can't see how firing on farm hands can be justified.


Title: Re: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: Koen on 10 March 2009, 13:05:04
The video is sleek: with perfect English speakers, loudspeaker (with instructions from Arab to Israeli in English?) and a steady cameraman with his back to the sniper. Hard to tell what the full story is, but I can't see how firing on farm hands can be justified.


you should follow the links I give you guys  ;)
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International Human Rights Activists were accompanying the group of farmers at the time as they worked approximately 500m from the Green Line.



Title: Re: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: bongotastic on 10 March 2009, 13:41:24
You mean... there is information in texts and not just in videos?  ???

What I meant is that there may be reasons why the soldiers are twitchy. But even if they were, real soldiers would not shoot at guys pushing bunches of spinach.


Title: Re: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: Koen on 10 March 2009, 13:57:11
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You mean... there is information in texts and not just in videos?


yeah, just imagine that...


Title: Re: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: stoffel on 10 March 2009, 14:50:11
A guy on the IDF forum told me, the soldiers were shot at by a sniper.
Strange but this video, according to the soldier, was shot a few seconds after the sniperattack, now what a coincidental moment to shoot a movie.... :)

I would have shot any Palestinian within 500 meters  if someone would shoot at me from behind them.
.
As allways(terrorist) usage of civilians as shield to serve for propoganda.


Title: Re: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: FACman on 10 March 2009, 17:07:43
Stoff sez:
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A guy on the IDF forum told me, the soldiers were shot at by a sniper.

Gaza/Israel border, Im thinking...nothing surprising here.

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Strange but this video, according to the soldier, was shot a few seconds after the sniperattack, now what a coincidental moment to shoot a movie.... Smiley

I dont find it strange, nor coincidental, that they would start filming when things get dicey. That is the purpose of having the camera crew along in the first instance, be they altruistic Humanitarians or Palistinian propaganda crew.

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I would have shot any Palestinian within 500 meters  if someone would shoot at me from behind them.

As would I have, as a young L/Cpl. However as an old SSG, I hope, I would be wise enough to see deeper into my enemies plots and think of better ways to neutralize the threat. Our evolution as a species requires that of us.

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As allways(terrorist) usage of civilians as shield to serve for propoganda.

Once again no surprise here. I am only surprised when supposedly intelligent leaders, so easily and readily, fall for the ploy and down this senseless path the world must walk. Had the innocent (?) farmers been predisposed to living with their neighbors, the Israeli, killing a brother, cousin, uncle will now have pushed them away.  If they are not innocent (!), but in fact, participants in the propaganda operation, killing one of them with cameras rolling, well, you just helped them successfully complete their mission. Because to a largely un-inquisitive viewer around the world, they will react viscerally to the scene as it plays out, i.e; propaganda works.

I am in no way saying I have the answers to the problem, I only see a problem that has gotten worse with time instead of better.

disclaimer: with my opinion and a couple of Euros, you might be able to get a cup of coffee somewhere.

ays,

J







Title: Re: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: Rattler on 12 March 2009, 00:47:01
... I dont find it strange, nor coincidental, that they would start filming when things get dicey. That is the purpose of having the camera crew along in the first instance, be they altruistic Humanitarians or Palistinian propaganda crew.


Indeed, as that was my job once I concur fully.

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I would have shot any Palestinian within 500 meters  if someone would shoot at me from behind them.

As would I have, as a young L/Cpl. However as an old SSG, I hope, I would be wise enough to see deeper into my enemies plots and think of better ways to neutralize the threat. Our evolution as a species requires that of us.


I could not say it better. We fight for - and inspire with - values, we have to train our solds for that.

Rattler


Title: Re: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: FACman on 12 March 2009, 03:36:05
Rattler sez:
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We fight for - and inspire with - values, we have to train our solds for that.


So much so, that 14 years after my Vietnam exp, I returned to the military for another 8 years in the National Guard. Some of the young lads, that were my charges back then, are now the leadership cadre of today's wars. My only reason for returning after 14 years, was to teach young men the skills that they would need, to survive combat one day. And by my example of always looking out for their interests first, taught them how to look out for each other. It is my hope, that one of those lads, who can now be called Sarge, remembers that lesson. For if he does, I have succeeded, and the years of sacrifice are well worth it.
Now, one might wonder, how does a man who can often be heard speaking in the furtherance of peace, reconcile that idea, with his desire to teach others about war? I can only say, it is one of the ways of the warrior, to look out for the interests of his tribe, by peaceful means if possible, and by success, if force must be used.

ays,

J


Title: Re: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: FACman on 12 March 2009, 04:13:42
Bongotastic sez:
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...real soldiers would not shoot at guys pushing bunches of spinach.


Im not sure of your meaning here. I would daresay that the ideal of a disciplined military, is to often, one of the casualties of war. The concept of civility in a combat environment (Gaza/Israel Border qualifies imo) is seriously impacted by the personal experiences of the participants. One of the ways we humans suspend our guilt or sublimate our conscience for the violence committed in this type environment, is by depersonalizing ones enemy. They weren't farmers trying to get their truck unstuck, they were the enemy. In my day, they were called Gooks. I dont know what they would be called in this case, but I would put money on the fact, that they are called something other than Arabs or Farmers. In short, when you send men into harms way, day after day, some of them, even real soldiers, will one day, act completely out of character. The only, 100%, sure way to keep this from happening, is to stop sending men to war.

ays,

J


Title: Re: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: bongotastic on 12 March 2009, 13:24:05
Im not sure of your meaning here.


I think that I've overstated here. I was wondering what would compel soldiers to do what the video suggest they did. That the video was produced by an international bunch of observer doesn't really ensure that it was done fairly. The way it is portrayed, this doesn't look at all like a combat situation. Getting a 500m headshot on someone pushing a truck who doesn't even attempt to be in cover looks more like murder. Assuming that the farmers were used as screen for an insurgent sniper, the farmers become legit targets depending on their level of cooperation.

In the end, I don't think that we can use this movie to make a judgment on anything. I like to think that the IDF has the ability to discipline their troop IF there is wrongdoing. 


Title: Re: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: FACman on 12 March 2009, 14:32:28
Bongo sez:
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I don't think that we can use this movie to make a judgment on anything


Aye, there is more left to ones imagination than the facts might suggest. And to use the old, tired sports metaphor, we didnt see the hit that caused the retaliation.

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...what would compel soldiers to do what the video suggest they did.


Pain, the kind only found when a loved one is killed (especially a comrade). The kind of emotional pain that comes from being unable to strike back, due to the ability of the belligerents to fade into their environment. That would be the first motivation that comes to my mind, one that most combat vets would understand and empathize with, even to the point, of ones mates covering it up. The 'us vs them' tribal bonding, is strengthened, by the inability to resolve ones frustrations in combat of this nature.

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...this doesn't look at all like a combat situation.


Any day you go to work, knowing that at any moment, all hell could break loose (as in this situation) and someone could die, you are in a combat state of mind, even when all else looks serene and normal. That is one of the daily realities for those who live along this border.

Please be aware that I am not attacking your position, I am just making an honest attempt to answer your queries, from my own personal exp in such an environment

ays,

Jody


Title: Re: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: bongotastic on 13 March 2009, 00:14:05
Hi Jody,
    I don't take this like an attack at all. The experience of a soldier isn't something easy to grasp for "career civilians". Thanks for the discussion.

Christian


Title: Re: Israeli shooting Farmers
Post by: FACman on 13 March 2009, 00:37:55
Christian sez:
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Thanks for the discussion.


At your service...*bows respectfully*

Jody