23 June 2017, 15:43:21 *

Login with username, password and session length
Welcome to War and Tactics!    War and Tactics Forum has been heavily streamlined to help you find your place of interest faster. Hope you like it!
   
  Home   Forum   Help ! Forum Rules ! Search Calendar Donations Login Register Chat  
Pages:  [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Share this topic on Del.icio.usShare this topic on DiggShare this topic on FacebookShare this topic on GoogleShare this topic on MySpaceShare this topic on RedditShare this topic on StumbleUponShare this topic on TechnoratiShare this topic on TwitterShare this topic on Yahoo
Author Topic: Indignation - The Spanish Revolution  (Read 16684 times)
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2268




View Profile WWW
« on: 20 May 2011, 23:14:17 »
ReplyReply

(This topic could as well go to "where we live" or to "war and conflicts", depending on the outcome of the next 48 hours, mods feel free to move)

History in the making, maybe to an extent we present persons havent witnessed in our lives despite having lived "May 1968" or seen "The Wall" crumble...?

Movement "Yes We Camp", movement "Indignation", movement "15-M", movement "Real Democracy Now", "The Spanish Revolution", there are tons of names for what has started here some days ago more or less spontaneously, taken moemntum and threatens (literally) to sweep away our political system as we know it in Europe (and further?). In spanish the name is "Indignados", which means "Persons that express indignation". And that is what it is, nothing more, nothing less (English sources translate it into "Outrage", but that, I feel falls short, "Indignation" is the correct description).

It started last Sunday, with 100+ people concentrating (incited by a facebook groop) on the "Puerta del Sol" in Madrid to express their indignation about the farce of an electoral campaign we have been witnessing for the last two weeks (we have regional and municipal elections tomorrow Sunday). On Monday it were 1.000, Tuesday 10.000, Wednesday 100.000 (in total, many other cities had started their protests), and yesterday 300.000. I have no numbers from today, but for tomorrow it is expected to see more than 1.000.000 citizens in the streets of all Spain, we are talking about 12% of the total population ("total" includes infants and old people, if we count from the "active" population we are nearer to 25%).

The movment(s) is as heterogenous as are the labels stuck to it, while it was started by intellectual youngsters it has by now become a mix composed of your average citizen including pensionists and children, workers, jobless, house wives, functionaries etc... A clear average of the Spanish society, and all "outraged".

Why should anybody in our Western democracies express "indignation" with what is going on?

As heterogenous as the movement are the answers to this question:

Yesterday I saw inverviews with people my age, the answer that stuck with me on the question of the reporter: "... dont you realize you are supporting revolt of the "anti-system" people..."? was: "I am not "anti-system". But "the system" is quite obviously anti-me!" This take - for me - basically sums it up:

I have been "indignated" for some time (years?) now, as part of the thousands of explications of why we are on the street let me just give you some examples from my POV:

When I read three press releases of Spains Telefonica in one day (for the synchroniszation I would have fired the whole PR complex) that state with two hours difference successively

- 1. We are proud to be the company of Spain that has had the highest profit this year
- 2. We need to set free 6.000 workers (20% of the work force) as we need to save 180 Million Euros urgently
- 3. Because of the great economic result we arer proud to annoucne that we can pay our directors a bonus of a toal of 450 Million Euros this year

then, yes, I am "outraged", an everybody I talked to this day was as well (even the government was complaining the "lack of nationalistic feelings within the direction of Telefonica")

When I realize

- that our Party "UM" has all its 39 directives (minus one) now in prison for having over the last 15 years (the time it existed) diverted 1.400 million Euros of "public" (read mine and yours) money into the pockets of its politicians; that they "bought" votes of immigrants in the numbers of thousands for 80 Euros each by installing their leaders into public companies (that they founded for the purpose with our tax payer money); that they deliberately searched and received "protection" from the central governent because without their vote nothing could have been decided and "it was in state´s interest";

- that in Valencia 80% of the list of the parties that offer themselves for elections on Sunday are officially accused of "corruption, bribery, illegal enrichment, deviation of public funds" and they still get protection from the top of the party and are allowed to present themselves again;

- that - right in front of my door - the mayoress has issued an order that we gardeners have to "recycle" cut plants into containers for 400 Euros each and then I see a mountain of her own cut plants in the middle of the woods

yes, then I am "indignated", to say the least.

When "we" decide to support the rebels in Lybia, but not in Syria (both layouts are not really soooo different with the distinction which of the two has petrol), when we decide to ignore Israels flagrant and open faced ingorance of international law, when we waterboard suspects in GUantanamo, when German troops are officially ordered to let Opium convoys pass in Afghanistan, when we save the bankers that ruined the financial system and then even pay them high dividends so they can start over; When every election turn the party that goes out "promotes" their charges into higher spheres to grant them an income, when our European parliament members jointly vote against flying business class instead of 1st (in times of crisis), then, yes, I am "indignated", to say the least.

Like everybody else, actually. And I share with the majority of people around me the feeling that my, our, politicians do not represent *me* at all, quite to the contrary. I share with the people in the bar in daily discussions the feeling that all they are interested in is either to fill their own pockets, or what number of minutes they had in TV yesterday (and whether the oppsition had more or less), or where to make a side profit, or which dictator to call "friend" right now, but have no intention whatsoever to do their representive work or task.

I yet have to see a poor dictator or mayor. Being mayor or dictaor is big business, and a rentable one.

I see poor people around me, slaves of a non-person dictator called "market" who actually are happy to enslave themselves under its auspicion (thats the "clever" difference of slavery today: Make them do it themselves!), and I am indignated, outraged, name it whatever you want.

When I vote in "blank" (i.e. not filling in any name on the ballot as I feel I cannot vote any of the gangsters presetning themselves) my vote is not counted. If 80% of the population are voting in blank, still all seats of parliament would be filled (according to the share the parties lists get from the other 20% of votes) by people nobody wanted there, and we still would have to pay for them. If I ask to count my vote I get the reply that "blank" (I dont want any) is not a valid decision. For me this is not "real" democracy (we in Spain vote 35% in "blank" lately) and I am "indignated" by this, outraged really.

When I see pictures like the following, then I am "indignated" to say the least, because I feel somebody is playing me or trying to:



This is my take on things, but there are a million more takes, by other people that also dont find a reply in our daily politics and that dont feel themselves being represented. Those are the people that (finally, I had hoped for this to happen much longer ago) carry their "indignation" to the street here in Spain.

The "Uproar around the Med" may have had something to do with it, the month, the upcoming elections, and of course the new technologies like twitter etc that allow actions to be triggered much faster than anytime before.

But one trigger for sure was Honorary Member of The Legion and carrier of the "Great Cross of Merit" Stephane Hessels 12 page booklet "Become Indignated" (the original French title "Indignez-vous!" halfheartedly translated to "Time for Outrage" in English, taking on the sentence "our time in the resistance was marked by outrage").

It is amazing how this old (93 yo) man (who was one of the diplomats who drafted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights for the United Nations in 1948) inspired people all over the world during the last 6 month re-iterating basically old ideas that had been taken for granted (but somehow forgotten) since decades. Also, what a shame that we need 93-yr old people to give us a push to *voice* our indignation over the leader´s igorance of commonly acepted values that we all share (AFAIK).

Anyway, and whatever, Spains citizens have moved, and big time. The politicians, with only the Sunday elections in mind, immidiately felt threatened when 100.000 people were reached on the "Puerta del Sol" in Madrid (now renamed Plaza "Tahir") and - as all "experts" and journalists (who by this proved they are also part of the problem and not of the solution) - reacted in their usual stereotypes and just by this proved that the basis of the protest is well founded:

- Some (like the Socialists) tried to embrace the movement by stating "We listen, if you want your ideas come true, vote us!", some even copying some of the requests (for a photo onloy, part of this farce of an electoral campaign we are seeing here). Not surprisingly they were openly ridiculed by the masses chantting for hours in reply "PSOE *and* PP are the same shit!" (it trhymes in Spanish).

- Others (also from the left) understood that this was "an attempt of the fascists to manipulate the elections"

- The right did not fare better: Madrids far right wing province presdident Esperanza Aguirre immidiately realized that "there must be someone behind the movement, most probably the left of the left, for not to say communists..."

- the executive moved a lot of people to have the manifestations declared illegal whith a the result that indeed (and in contra to a verdict from the Constitutional Court from 2008) the manifestation after 0000 local on Saturday is forbidden because it represents an "unethical attempt to manipulate the elections". Suffice to say that everybody expects the movement to grow tonight and to defy this ruling peacefully.

- Journalists and Experts saw all kinds of "left" or "right" strategies behind the movement, searched for "the genie behind it", claimed it to be party maneuvers, or to be chaots and anarchists, a movement of the no future generation, a terorist attempt of ETA to detract from their political moves, etc., all ridiculous and showing they dont understand anything.

Nobody took it for what it is, simply at face value, people like you and me on the street saying "We. Are. Fed. Up. ... With all of you! You make us sick. Go home. Now!"

Only today the first voices come up in the media voicing their impression that even by discussing the movement of citizens in the street under the aspect of whether they are from the right or from the left whos that our politicians as well as the media are living in thier own world far off reality, because in reality the movment is neither right, nor left nor nothing of those traditional parameters that we have learned to interpret politics with.

"Amorphness" was critizised, as if that was something bad. There are 8 basic clearly stated objectives that the manifestants aks for, apart from just presenting their discontent, but of course as heterogenously as are our (here in the forum) takes on things even if we are basing our ideas on the same values. The basic gist is that we need an "ethic revolution", relativating the importance of money and the obligation to earn it to understand money as a tool to serve us as society, based on the idea that we are persons and not market products, and that it is obscene to reduce a person to what he buys, why he buys and from whom he buys.

Whatever, tomorrow (which is today while I write) will be the fire test for the movment: With the illegalization the goverment forces will have to act and will try and clear the places of (by now) 166 cities in Spain (or break the law, which will make them lose any credibility in the future), whatever they do they can only lose: If they get us off the places by force the pictures will tell the world and people in other nations how seriously our politicians take our opinion as citizens, if they let us remain there they will concede that the elections are a farce and so create the basis for their own abolsihment as establishment. The time after SUndays elections will tell if this was just a meneuver for the elections or will be a movement that spreads (to all Europe, actually) and will be sustained way beyond the elections and despite who wins.

I think so, and I believe that we are at the start of a new period of how humankind will understand politics and personal representation, Europe beware!

Interesting times in the Chinese sense coming up, you can follow the news (minute by minute) of the center of the Spanish Protests (Puerta del Sol, Madrid) here live (translated to English): http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=es&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rtve.es%2Fnoticias%2F20110518%2Fminuto-minuto-manifestacion-acampada-movimiento-15%2F433335.shtml&act=url

FWIW,

Rattler
« Last Edit: 21 May 2011, 02:18:26 by Rattler » Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #1 on: 21 May 2011, 07:43:23 »
ReplyReply

what strucks me in the Spanish story is that they immediately contruct new laws every single time there seems to be a problem....
Logged
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2268




View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: 21 May 2011, 22:15:44 »
ReplyReply

Twits regarding my city:  #acampadapalma

As we are in Spain people have found a way (from all sides) to live together in a (theoretically illegal) demonstration and a (publicly felt) right to have an opinion.

The way chosen (spontaneously, nobody negotiating) was that the demonstrators decided to not say anything politic today (the day before the elections, "day of reflection", what does that mean exactly, who has to reflect?) where political demonstrations have been prohibited and that the authorities accept that the people that happen to be around the places of the cities in mass are doing just this: They are reflecting, nothing illegal about this (the photo below from Valencia, but it is the same here in Palma or in Madrid)... Gotta love Spain!

"We are reflecting"


More pix:

"Only I decide when to pack a suitcase" (suitcase is the symbol of corruption, we have no 500 Euro bills left in Spain, and we know where they have gone to: Suitcases):



No you cant! :



Yes! we camp!





What it looks right now (Madrid):



Gotta hurry, we have decided to go "reflecting" a bit at midnight in Palma.

Rattler
« Last Edit: 22 May 2011, 16:19:54 by Rattler » Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
MontyB
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1005




View Profile
« Reply #3 on: 21 May 2011, 22:40:19 »
ReplyReply

Ok I have been thinking about this a lot primarily because because I am of the opinion that "politics" as it is now is failing and world over it has become a haven for corrupt, self serving individuals, New Zealand as a whole are not the protesting types as we become more disillusioned we become more apathetic.

Fewer and fewer people show up to vote and that is our form of protest, we are all told that if you don't vote you have no right to complain but how do you have you voice heard if there is no one you consider worth voting for, in the end it doesn't matter how many vote as long as it is an uneven number because our politicians are so desperate to maintain power that they would claim a moral mandate if only 1 person in the country voted.

The question I would put forward is how do you expect these "protests" to work, it seems to me that you are asking the very people who have caused the problems to suddenly change?

Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #4 on: 22 May 2011, 08:31:13 »
ReplyReply

same here Monty, we become disinterested and couldn't care less at the end...

we still have no new government, more than a year after the elections....
Logged
MontyB
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1005




View Profile
« Reply #5 on: 22 May 2011, 09:20:12 »
ReplyReply

same here Monty, we become disinterested and couldn't care less at the end...

we still have no new government, more than a year after the elections....


The problem is that apathy doesn't work either because politicians don't care how few people vote as long as they get the most votes from those that do, we have no chance of getting rid of politicians we don't want as the higher ranked ones go on the party list as well as the general election so we have people in government that were thrown out of government by their own electorate coming straight back into parliament as a list MP.

The sad part about politics and I suspect this is a problem the world over is that instead of voting in the government we want and believe would be best for the country we focus more on voting the ones we don't want out without any regard to clowns we are replacing them with because if we were honest we would realise that it doesn't matter who you vote for a politicians only loyalty is to a party and that party's only loyalty is to who ever gives them the most money.

I remain convinced that the only way to bring politics back into line is by figuring out a way to remove party's from the equation because once they are gone politicians become accountable to their electorate again.
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
FACman
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

United States

Location: Ar-kansas
Posts: 819




View Profile
« Reply #6 on: 22 May 2011, 14:02:08 »
ReplyReply

Monty sez:
Quote
...the only way to bring politics back into line is by figuring out a way to remove party's from the equation because once they are gone politicians become accountable to their electorate again.


A very difficult proposition to be sure. I would say eliminating the special interest money is an avenue to explore. That is, state funded elections. All eligible candidates get the same exact amount of campaign money to make their case. Sorry, the wealthy dont get to use their own money, corporations and unions cannot participate directly (no funding of candidates). Along with this, we set term limits, no more making careers out of what should be a civic responsibility.
That being said, I do not expect it to happen here in the US, as long as the special interests wield the influence they currently do. Not to mention, our Supreme Court, that fount of wisdom, has recently decreed (contrary to 100 years of precedence) that corporations (non-living entities), have the same rights as I do. Bastards.
 at2
Logged

"You can call me by my first name...Sarge."
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #7 on: 22 May 2011, 14:10:03 »
ReplyReply

a basic thought is that the last decades people have involved to '(human) beings' that prefer money above selfrespect
Logged
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2268




View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: 22 May 2011, 16:33:24 »
ReplyReply

Again am a bit in a hurry to leave, but a few quick thoughts on the replies above:

- apathy does not work for sure. Also voting does not for the reasons mentioned. A solution would be to make the empty votes count, not only in the de hondt system (where they favor the mayority party) but
as a valid vote for "nobody". "nobody" gets 20%, leave the corresponding seats in parliament free.

- to get rid of parties I feeel is the wrong angle of attack, parties *are* a means to canalize interests into action. But, todays parties have tweaked the layout sufficiently to be *the only* valid way to canalize interests, this has to change. Solutions would be going over "open" lists (now the parties themselves behind closed doors and w/o participation of the citizens make their lists here in Spain - and in Germany) so that the people vote the lists of the parties. All the corrupts, bbrothers and sisters of theparty leader, their wives etc. would not "naturally" make it to the lists that we have to vote later. Change election law: Who is accused of corruption may not (until his case is resolved) form part of a party list. Mix lists and direct mandate (this is installed in Germany): 50% of MPs enter via party list, 50% are voted directly by the people. In the end we want to vote for or against people and not for acronyms.

- one big thing that has to be changed is that we need control of the power thgough democratic means: The really powerful people like the bosses of Goldman-Sachs or the FMI are not voted for despite that their decisions infliuence way more than decisions of lets say Mr. Obama on my personal life.

- we have to rethink our system based on growth, as it is bound to collapse sooner or later: At the moment it works because we literally rob ressources from the so called third wolrd countries and push them into "the market" to finance our growth. This is not only unethical, it has a natural end when no resources will be left anymore to fire the engine with. Look at the growth rates of the emerging countries and it at once becomes clear that this is unsustainable on the long run.

Rattler
Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
MontyB
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1005




View Profile
« Reply #9 on: 22 May 2011, 20:27:38 »
ReplyReply

Monty sez:
Quote
...the only way to bring politics back into line is by figuring out a way to remove party's from the equation because once they are gone politicians become accountable to their electorate again.


A very difficult proposition to be sure. I would say eliminating the special interest money is an avenue to explore. That is, state funded elections. All eligible candidates get the same exact amount of campaign money to make their case. Sorry, the wealthy dont get to use their own money, corporations and unions cannot participate directly (no funding of candidates). Along with this, we set term limits, no more making careers out of what should be a civic responsibility.
That being said, I do not expect it to happen here in the US, as long as the special interests wield the influence they currently do. Not to mention, our Supreme Court, that fount of wisdom, has recently decreed (contrary to 100 years of precedence) that corporations (non-living entities), have the same rights as I do. Bastards.
 at2


The interesting thing here is that we theoretically do have public funded elections in the way you described however over the years it has been changed so that each party got a percentage of the funding pool because they had the largest percentage of the vote consequently it is impossible for new parties to enter the system and those in power stay in power.

I am all for the idea of term limits, though.

 
Again am a bit in a hurry to leave, but a few quick thoughts on the replies above:

- apathy does not work for sure. Also voting does not for the reasons mentioned. A solution would be to make the empty votes count, not only in the de hondt system (where they favor the mayority party) but
as a valid vote for "nobody". "nobody" gets 20%, leave the corresponding seats in parliament free.

- to get rid of parties I feeel is the wrong angle of attack, parties *are* a means to canalize interests into action. But, todays parties have tweaked the layout sufficiently to be *the only* valid way to canalize interests, this has to change. Solutions would be going over "open" lists (now the parties themselves behind closed doors and w/o participation of the citizens make their lists here in Spain - and in Germany) so that the people vote the lists of the parties. All the corrupts, bbrothers and sisters of theparty leader, their wives etc. would not "naturally" make it to the lists that we have to vote later. Change election law: Who is accused of corruption may not (until his case is resolved) form part of a party list. Mix lists and direct mandate (this is installed in Germany): 50% of MPs enter via party list, 50% are voted directly by the people. In the end we want to vote for or against people and not for acronyms.

- one big thing that has to be changed is that we need control of the power thgough democratic means: The really powerful people like the bosses of Goldman-Sachs or the FMI are not voted for despite that their decisions infliuence way more than decisions of lets say Mr. Obama on my personal life.

- we have to rethink our system based on growth, as it is bound to collapse sooner or later: At the moment it works because we literally rob ressources from the so called third wolrd countries and push them into "the market" to finance our growth. This is not only unethical, it has a natural end when no resources will be left anymore to fire the engine with. Look at the growth rates of the emerging countries and it at once becomes clear that this is unsustainable on the long run.

Rattler



I disagree about the need to keep party systems functioning at level they currently are, you can not convince me that a political system can work when it is structured to be confrontational no matter what the idea put forward is, if party X puts forward an idea that would end world hunger and bring world peace it is the role and responsibility of the other party or parties to stop it and that to me is a ludicrous system where by party ideology is more important than the country it serves.

So I am convinced that while "Parties" as such do not need to go they do need to have their power broken.

I do support the idea of a "No" vote that has consequences as that does mean politicians have to at least pay lip service to their electorates.

Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2268




View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: 27 June 2011, 20:09:29 »
ReplyReply

OK, with what input we had from all of our actives, lets make a list (I am asking this with a plan in mind) of what *you*, in your country, find indignating/revolting/upheaving.

My principal list I have posted when starting the thread, but I can add a good stock since, just two quick examples:

- We have a new goverment (regionally), Mr. Bauza (of the conservatives) who promised "austerity" in his campaign (much applauded, won with absolute majority).

Guess what was his two first actions? 1st: Halve the number of ministeries (applauded by everyone, saving some 800.000.000 every year) and, one day later, *raise* the remuneration for all "High Charges" between 8% and 21% (11% average) with following reasoning: "With the reduced number of departments all need to work more, hence we think they deserve to gain more"... Extra cost: 12.000.000... He, of course, claims that this is "...an example of austerity, we saved some 700.000.000 overall..." .

Maybe I forget to put it into perspective: *All* functionaries (except his party friends high charges) have had their income reduced by 5%  in his 3rd decrete ("...we need to be austere and follow suit to what is happening to the normal people on the street...")


Another one, randomly picked of around 500:

- Lybia  now has a totoal of affirmed 1500+ civilians killed by its own army, NATO intervened with a UN mandate to stop this. Fine with me.

Syria now has 18.000 +/- civilians killed by their own army, NATO says "...these are internal issues that we wont consider involvement..." (and they cant, because they ran out of ammo, would you believe it: Against !!!Lybia!!! ... NATO !!! As in NATO! What if the enmy had been e.g. Switzerland? Total defeat ??!!?? Or what?) Also, of course, there is no petrol involved, those are just "War-Against-Terrorism" issues...

Anyway, let us know what you find reason enough in your environment to feel indignated,

Rattler


* ideologic_salute.jpg (15.77 KB, 264x198 - viewed 559 times.)
« Last Edit: 27 June 2011, 21:35:12 by Rattler, Reason: Added another reason » Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #11 on: 28 June 2011, 17:54:42 »
ReplyReply

+1 year after elections we still have NO new government

justice department is still a 'mess': yesterday court appealed that 2 gipsy women were falsly arrested because the cops followed/watched them because they were 'gypsies' and that is not a lawful reason  reddevil
even when they found 1/ a stolen bankcard wich they already used to take money out of the wall and & 2/ multiple stolen GPS in their car

that Belgium/Flanders is making itself ridiculous in the whole world due to the fact that it/they can't represent itself/themselves
where are you from? euh.... Belgium... but also Flanders... yeah..... bit complicated.....
where is your firm located? well.... same as above
when I would like to build a local station of my foreign firm in Belgium/Flanders, who should I contact? well....... followed by a list of pages!!!!

ammo shortage in Libya! yeah, already knew that and it's something to be ashamed of BIGTIME!

Syria? Yeah, where is NATO?
Logged
stoffel
WaT supporter
WaT Supporter

*

Online Online

Netherlands

Location: Eemnes The Netherlands
Posts: 1815


View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: 28 June 2011, 21:53:49 »
ReplyReply

Koen its the same everywhere Smiley
Here a short joke about that subject.


Je  bent politieagent.
You are a policeofficer.

Je wandelt in  een afgelegen straat met je vrouw en kinderen.
You walk in a dark, empty street with your wife and kids.
Plots verschijnt er een  gevaarlijk individu voor je met een
gigantisch mes. Hij kijkt je recht  in de ogen en brult dat
hij je geld wil, terwijl hij jou en je gezin  bedreigt met
zijn gigantisch mes.
Suddenly a huge dangerous indivudual with a huge knife jumps in front of you , demanding money and threathens your family.
Jij hebt je dienstpistool bij je  en je bent toevallig de
beste schutter van je korps.
You are the best marksman in the corps and you carry your gun with you.
Je hebt slechts  enkele seconden om na te denken en te reageren
voordat hij  aanvalt.
Wat doe je?
You have a few seconds to react before he attacks you and your family, what do you do?

In  Australië:
BANG!

In  America:
BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG  BANG!!
herladen
BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG!! click click  click click!

In Netherlands  :
Vooraleer over  te gaan tot actie eerst een diepgaand onderzoek uitvoeren:
Before acting do a thorough investigation first.
- Is het mes  toevallig geen plastic namaakmes?
Is the knife fake?
- Verkiest de aanvaller te spreken in  het Arabisch, Turks, Duits, Engels, Frans
  of het  Nederlands?
Does the attacker speaks Arabic, turkish, German, English or Dutch?
- Gaat dit incident invloed hebben op mijn kansen voor  promotie?
Does this incident has a negative influence on my future carrier?
- Gaat de media een profiel van hem maken en concluderen dat  hij geliefd is
  door iedereen, zelfs door zijn hond?
Will the media make a story out of it, saying he is loved by everybody including his dog?
- Is hij  lid van een bende die goed geïntegreerd is in onze maatschappij?
Is he a member of a not well integrated gang in our society?
- Is  hij een nieuwe immigrant die niet goed weet hoe hij de politie moet  benaderen?
Is it a new immigrant, whom doesnt know how to react to a policeofficer?
- Is het een TBS'er op proefverlof die nog steeds slecht  gereïntegreerd is in onze maatschappij?
Is it a prisoner with a methal disease on leave from prison whom is badly re integrated in our society?
- Gaat dit geval aangemerkt  worden als een racistische actie en verlies ik mijn baan?
Will my action be marked as a racist act and can I lose my job as a result?
- Is dit een  slachtoffer van alcohol en/of drugs en weet hij niet wat hij  doet?
Is he a victim of alcohol/drugs and is he not aware of his actions?

Actie: Ik zal  hem dan eindelijk maar eerst vriendelijk vragen zijn wapen  neer
          te leggen en als hij niet reageert op mijn herhaald en zeer  vriendelijk
          verzoek, dan schiet ik hem neer.
Action: I will ask him very polite to lay down his weapon, and if he doesnt respond to my well intended friendly and generous request I will shoot him.


DE  GEVOLGEN:
RESULTS:

In Australië:  

Eenvoudig proces-verbaal; een verdachte is namelijk áltijd  fout.
A simple report, a suspect is ALWAYS wrong smallclap

In  Amerika:

Een verslagje  door middel van een standaard invulformuliertje van
één bladzijde,  felicitaties en de zaak is gesloten.
A simple report, standard form, felicitations and a medal, case closed.

In  Netherlands:
- Proces-verbaal met alle mogelijke en  onmogelijke motivaties
  waarom je hebt geschoten en of dat wel  nodig was.
A thorough written report with all possible actions you could have taken differently and a thorough motivation and most important, why did you shoot.
- Verslag aan de korpschef.
Report to the chief of police.
- Verslag aan de  Burgemeester.
Report to the meyer.
- Verslag aan de Rijksrecherche.
Report to internal affairs.
- Verslag aan de  Algemene Inspectie.
Report to the general inspectorservice.
- Inbeslagneming van je wapen.
You have to hand over your gun and badge following suspicion.
- Tuchtonderzoek.
Internal affairs investigation.
- Verschijnen voor de onderzoeksrechter.
Appear at DA office.
- Verschijnen voor de rechtbank als verdachte.
Appear at court as a suspect of a crime.
- Klacht tegen je met  burgerlijke partijstelling door de familie.
Complaint filed by the "victims" family .
- Klacht met burgerlijke  partijstelling door het Centrum voor Gelijkheid van Kansen
  en  voor Racismebstrijding (hij bleek een illegale vreemdeling te  zijn).
Complaint filed by several anti-racist groups ( he turned out to be an illegal imigrant)
- Veroordeling wegens doodslag.
Conviction for menslaughter.
- Oneervol ontslag.
Dishonourful discharge from the service.
- Jarenlang trauma met zelfmoordneigingen.  
Trauma and suicidal reactions.

 hihi
Logged

My topics are about my personal opinion, my thoughts and what I think. They do not reflect the official opinion of the ministry of defense of the Netherlands.
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2268




View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: 28 June 2011, 22:33:22 »
ReplyReply

(English and Español):

I understand the joke and a bit of your indignation (though I don´t want to go back to the Aussie or US standards here in Europe neither, giving him the money and have him arrested later works well for me), but those things are not really the agenda of 15M or the Spanish Revolution (this is not Tea Party, after all  Knipoog).

Our agenda tries to address (beneath others) mainly the following issues:

- Representative Democracy does not represent us as citizens (anymore, nowadays), as we can not vote the people that really control our lives ("The Market"), and the people that we vote have "free hands" until the next vote in 4 years without ever demanding or receiving feedback of what or whom they are representing. Obviously they don´t need to bother a damn about us during this period.

- NOTE I am giving in to Monty and his ideas about parties here!: Representative Democracy (while it has its unquestionable merits having saved us from various dictatorships and autocratic regimes) is of the last century, and an outdated model. It has nothing to do with our current problems, it´s part of the problem and no longer the solution: With todays technology it would be easy to construct a *direct* democracy where every citizen, whenever he wants, can vote for or against anything: Laws, setups, government layouts or composition, collective actions, etc.

It´s as easy as swithing on your telly in the morning with  the current list of government issues/proposals and vote Y/N on your mobile/TV control/computer (soon you will be able to simply pronounce "Yes" or "No", perfectly identified and rather secure - at least on the level you are now - of fraudulent use of your input)

- Left/Right as  definition of political ideas is a POV from the past century also, politicians that think in those blocks are not understanding reality anymore, as todays issues can both at the same time demand reactions that are traditionally "left" or "right" but are in the current system exclude each other by votes only every 4 years instead of "continous" voting. Obsolete.

- "syndicates" and "unions" are also obsolete as coming from last century (and having had tremendous merits in their time): How does a syndicate, representing "workers" represent the 5 million that want to work but dont find any, e.g. here in Spain?

Etc., don´t have time now, this just as appetizers (and added in Spanish for the sake of search engines), but flashing over them it gets clear why the "establishment" is so afraid of this movement: They have the hunch (and corretly so) that we feel we don´t need them anymore. Their reactions so far: Either trying to criminalize the movement (worked - and failed, as it became clear the next day that the aggressors were "infiltrated" police chaps - in Barcelona), or trying to embrace it claiming thats what you (your party, your ideolgy etc) *always* had wanted (result so far: More indignation).

Downside: We will probably have the death penalty for just looking at our friends girl friend or for stealing a car. Something certainly to be addressed (education! anyone? The field we are lacking most after justice department: Justice that needs 5 years for a verdict on a claim is not justice, uneducated people make uneducated choices) but has to be accepted as part of our new idea on how to create "directly controlled" (and hence "representative") governments.

Rattler

(In Spanish, not literally the same - as I wrote this a few days earlier and with more time - but along the same general lines: I claim there that history is happening right in front of our noses and that not even the people of 15M have realized what they started or where it only can end: Lack of seeing the wood for all the trees):

Quote
Los politicos, los banceros y los periodistas tienen cierto miedo, y con razon: Son bastante obsoletos, modelos del pasado y ven venir que el 15M va a arasar la democracia *representativa" y cambiar la por una "directa" a lo largo. No saben como reaccionar: O abrazar el movimiento o combatirlo?

Lo que no entienden es que ellos *y* la democracia representativa son parte del problema y no de la solucion, historia pasando delante sus narices y ni lo captan (tambien una gran parte del 15M no ven el bosque por tantos arboles, pero esto es otra historia):

- las ideas de "izquierda" y "derecha" son del siglo pasado: Tenian su sentido en su tiempo, pero hoy no sirven mas: Yo, por ejemplo, soy de ideas izquierdistas pero estoy contento que aqui en Baleares mis Socialistas que tapaban los corruptos de UM tanto tiempo se tuvieron que marchar. Que ellos se preguntan todavia porque perdieron en las urnas me enseña que lejos estaban del  ciuadano...

- la democracia representativa, con todos sus meritos  (nos liberó de las dictaduras a lo largo) es del siglo pasado: Hoy no es necesaria: Con la technologia al alcanze podemos hacer una democracia directa, cada ciudadano puede votar y su voto contado en minutos, sobre qualquier ley, sobre qualquier idea (si alguien lo quiere montar, claro, y esto dudo).

- Los partidos no son mas necesarios, son del siglo pasado: Hoy un gobierno, proponiendo leyes a la ciudadania en vez de a un parlamento, es lo unico que necesitamos: El ciudadano, "la calle" puede decidir y *votar* perfectamente que leyes quiere aprobar, al dia, via internet o via mobil (y si, esta bastante seguro, al minimo iugual que pagar con tarjeta de credito o votar en papel).

- Sindicatos? Para que los necesitamos *hoy* (tenian muchisimo merito en su tiempo)? Como van a representar los parados los uniones de trabajadores? Sus intereses son diametralmente opuestos. Obsoletos, perdonen.

De este miedo acumulado en los estructuras tradicionales (y sus protagonistas) vienen los comentarios como "...creo en la democracia representativa...!" de todas los portavozes de partidos hoy, lo mas interesante para mi era el "...prefiero los resultados de las urnas al clamor de la calle...": Entonces, quiere decirnos que escuchar al pueblo es anti-democratico? O como hay que entenderlo?

Una democracia directa hoy es posible, a por ella!

No necesitamos "representatnes" que, da igual que haces, siempre son los mismos. Recortando todos a nosotros esclavos, subiendose el sueldo, potenciando las ganancias de Goldman-Sachs y consortes, "El Mercado".

No necesitamos los gastos de tanta "representacion".

Que puede ser que no nos gustan los resultados de una democracia directa? Si, posiblemente: Seguro que haya pena de muerte, niños en la carcel, leyes barbaricos, y que se pudiera fumar otra vez.

Pero, al minimo sera representativo de la banda de pueblo que somos.

Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
stoffel
WaT supporter
WaT Supporter

*

Online Online

Netherlands

Location: Eemnes The Netherlands
Posts: 1815


View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: 29 June 2011, 13:30:45 »
ReplyReply

I think some of these issues have been overcome by Switzerland.
Their form of democracy works because people can directly vote for all major political issues.

I think the MP's here are afraid of a system like that because they lose the benefits of their job, their relations become powerless.
They lose power and more important, global working large industrial and other companies cant "buy" them anymore.
Logged

My topics are about my personal opinion, my thoughts and what I think. They do not reflect the official opinion of the ministry of defense of the Netherlands.
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2268




View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: 29 June 2011, 16:52:56 »
ReplyReply

Switzerland, indeed. But, as they are a small people (Norway might want to try it out then, like Iceland now is doing after successfully dowing their government) 2009 with their "Iceland Revolution", in those small nations there is still a kind of "tribal" structure served and present. Not the case anymore in todays Spain or Germany or UK, and that is where the problem starts and ends, we need different means while starting from the same outtake.

We have become indoctrinated (not by bad intentions of our indoctrinators, more so by "trial-and-error" type of experiences like WWII and "Cold" war) to believe that "representative" democracy is the *only* way to go. This is not true, just a perception.

As all *doctrinal* approaches this one is bound to fail, simply because the doctrine tries to exclude the possibility of evolution into something else (very human, but also very fail prone).

Again, I have no time, but I will promote a few things I think that are important and we have forgotten about them:

- We are no mercancy, we are people (for good an bad), and thats the way my planet should be organized.

- We are not anti-system, the system is anti-us

- If we have to pay their debt, let them pay our mortgage, then we can talk.

- When the youngsters take to the streets, suddenly the parties look old. Strange? No, normal!

- This is not a "crisis", this is a massive fraud (yessir)!

- We are *not* violent (whatever you get told by your media: Quite to the contrary and consciously so, search on youtube on how the "inflitrated" provocateurs of the National police simply were surrounded and so neutralized: We had 6 millions on the street all over Spain last Saturday, not *one* violent incident reported), our weapons ("nuestras armas" in Spanish) are these depicted below, in best Ghandi imitation/tradition:





You want to get a feel for what is happening here (and which might be your future in your countries as well)? Then seriously check out this video (in English, listening to our 90 yrs olds!), and you will see what is happening here everyday now and what the international media are afraid to show to you guys in other nations, what our streets look like, and why I have changed my avatar yet again:

SPANISH REVOLUTION-& SO IT BEGINS ,COME ON EUROPE GET UP!!


Europe (World?) awake, please! If you ever had a chance, *now* its your turn to grab it!

"Without house, without work, without pension, without fear":


Will our own movement fuck us over in the near future? Yes, probably (every "revolution eats its children"). Do we have a better idea right now? NO.

So, with a Guy Fawkes mask (why Guy Fawkes, ancbody?) and our cherished Monty (sic!) Pythons:



Get moving folks, after so many years studying history lets make history study us!

Germany was reunited (fairly peacefully for a rtrue revolution) under the same thing we are saying now on a greater scale:

*WE* are the people!
,.

Dont leave it to the kids to repair this mess, its *we* that screwed up!

FWIW,

Rattler
« Last Edit: 29 June 2011, 17:35:24 by Rattler » Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #16 on: 29 June 2011, 20:06:28 »
ReplyReply

There is so much happening in the world right now that I struggle with the amount of information

Greece, Syria, Spain, Italy, €, Afghanistan, Pakistan, France, IMF, nuclear Japan, De-nuclear Germany, Belgium/Flanders, offensive Iran, Israel, pro-Europe/NATO Turkey, convoys to Gaza and so much more....

I am overwhelmed by all this negative news and I'm not able to streamline my thoughts on all these matters....
Logged
stoffel
WaT supporter
WaT Supporter

*

Online Online

Netherlands

Location: Eemnes The Netherlands
Posts: 1815


View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: 29 June 2011, 20:48:50 »
ReplyReply

Oh, you forget one!!!
Tank-less Holland  waa
Logged

My topics are about my personal opinion, my thoughts and what I think. They do not reflect the official opinion of the ministry of defense of the Netherlands.
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2268




View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: 30 June 2011, 17:24:56 »
ReplyReply

Nice short amateur video in English here that very well captures the spirit of the movement, just hoping we will reach critical mass.

Spanish Revolution. Join the #SpanishRevolution


I have pondered a bit more about the direct democracy apporach with daily/weekly voting via the internet, seems quite feasible with some tweaks: I would propose there always would have to be a certain amount of people asking for a vote, maybe some 5% of the polulation, in order to "stabilize" such a fast moving voting syste.

My idea would go like this: Every citizen can askfor/propose a law in a public space reserved for that and from where his proposal is distributed through the various channels. Once the proposal reaches a mass of x% of the people supporting it it will automatically be part of the next general public vote.

As I dont expect that every proposal that e.g. I or you would make would be well thought through enough to be perfect we still would need inventing an intelligent system on how those proposals could get modified by others in order to become a fully relevant law proposal that is finally voted for, and there I am still in the dark.

Just mulling,

Rattler
Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #19 on: 30 June 2011, 18:09:43 »
ReplyReply

one thing is true... we do need to make ourselves more 'heared'....
Logged
Pages:  [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Unique Hits: 16376212 | Sitemap
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!


Google visited last this page 11 June 2017, 10:14:55