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Author Topic: Disturbing  (Read 11740 times)
Koen
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« on: 14 January 2013, 21:20:58 »
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Reflecting on the history of WaT I find it disturbing that every discussion on political issues ends with the loss of 1 or more members.

I miss the opinion of several members/friends that once were proud to share their opinion here on WaT.

By now we have less than 5 active members.

When I followed/joined discussions I never felt the need to go personal. Even when readers (non-members) accused me of being a neo-nazi because I criticized Israel's actions.

Last member we lost on the Israel debate is MontyB.

When I started the 'debate' side of WaT I felt assured because I felt surrounded by intelligent wide-visioned people.

The reality showed me wrong and I ask myself how to proceed from this moment.

Scale down and limit to a historical section and become an archive? Boring.

I always looked forward to a 2nd opinion, even on my US view when MR criticized my stand. No problem for me.

So what now?
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Koen
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« Reply #1 on: 21 January 2013, 19:23:37 »
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anybody?
would love some input/reactions
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stoffel
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« Reply #2 on: 21 January 2013, 20:42:35 »
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Dont know, honoustly dont know.
What I do know is that you always will get people with radicale views ( some with right winged views close to being criminal)
We have plenty of views though on other topics.
I suggest to continue on that part of the side.

For me these kind of discussions are useless since somewhere someone gets angry.
No use to try to convince someone else on YOUR opinion as the RIGHT one.


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Koen
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« Reply #3 on: 21 January 2013, 21:45:37 »
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when we only start topics that have no possibility to end in a discussion we should avoid any political subject

problem is that 90% of all matters on our planet are political related

when we should only post 'safe' posts we are implementing a 'restriction', a 'censorship'

we lost FacMan

we scared MontyB

I miss them

I appreciated their thoughts, their ideas and POV's

Both men were active, had experience and were capable of having a good discussion
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stoffel
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« Reply #4 on: 21 January 2013, 21:57:23 »
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Thats simply why we should avoid them.
One of my friends who regularly visits the site ( high ranking justicecourt officer) complained about the anti jewish statement regarding Hitler.
One for which he warned me he would take legal steps to prevent them.

He blamed me for not removing it, that even caused some trouble between me and him.
We already talked that out but I wasnt to happy with it.

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Koen
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« Reply #5 on: 21 January 2013, 22:12:14 »
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Thats simply why we should avoid them.
One of my friends who regularly visits the site ( high ranking justicecourt officer) complained about the anti jewish statement regarding Hitler.
One for which he warned me he would take legal steps to prevent them.

He blamed me for not removing it, that even caused some trouble between me and him.
We already talked that out but I wasnt to happy with it.

well, I'm not so happy with people who stand on the side but still want to have something to say. When your 'friend' has an opinion he should register and discuss instead. He can even use a nickname so that he discuss as a member (and not as a justice officer).
More and more I see people referring to laws instead of trying to discuss a solution.

Remember when another 'friend' of yours accused me of being a neo-nazi because I questioned the actions Israel took/takes.

Who's wrong? I who openly discuss without accusing anyone or the guy who accuses me of being a neo-nazi. And again your 'friend' wasn't a member. When I would've been a normal member back then I would have left.

So at the end WaT would consist of the ones standing at the side... that would certainly work, not?

at this moment I am NOT posting about
*another schoolkilling in the US
*inauguration of Obama
*fences in Greece, US and Israel
*more housebuilding in Israel
*the lack of international reaction on Syria
*the military actions in Mali
*many WWII topics that are actual

and much more....
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stoffel
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« Reply #6 on: 21 January 2013, 22:17:50 »
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I know, but that is simply reality.
And another reason to avoid such discussions.
The one you refer to was an Israeli army officer btw.
Some people have jobs which do not allow them to be members of war-related sites.
Simply to avoid getting into these discussions which can harm their position.

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Rattler
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« Reply #7 on: 21 January 2013, 23:39:53 »
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Quote
well, I'm not so happy with people who stand on the side but still want to have something to say. When your 'friend' has an opinion he should register and discuss instead. He can even use a nickname so that he discuss as a member (and not as a justice officer).
More and more I see people referring to laws instead of trying to discuss a solution.


Quote
I know, but that is simply reality.
And another reason to avoid such discussions.
The one you refer to was an Israeli army officer btw.


Folks, like Monty and FacMan I am not participating in discussions anymore in a forum where I get threatened with legal steps if I voice an opinion, that is unacceptable from my POV and for what I stand for.

Let Israel rule the media, I wont participate in it. I served my time defending freedom of speech, and I am telling this to our German Nazis as well as to our Spanish Catalanist Nazis (who are fighting to abolish exactly this right), no way to get me to shrink in front of freedom issues, the only reason to be on the side we are, methinks. JFTR, I am left and not right. Check out 23F ´81 vids to identify who ducked under the benches and who did not when Guardia Civil Lt. Coronel Tejero shot into the roof. There is a reason for this difference, and it was the three "leftest" members of parliament who kept steadfast (google "youtube 23F Tejero").

If the Israelis or the Catalan are procuring fascist moves, I will say so or leave if I am not allowed to express this opinion freely. Actually, what is happening with both the Catalan or Israel factions is that they are promoting the same fascist ideas (one people, forming an identity by race/belief/etc surrounding one idea and flag, victims to one enemy: In this case Muslims and Spanish, but it could be anyone, just got to cry it out loud enough) as Hitler and his acolytes.

I wont have my service shamed by anybody calling it a fascist serving act if I was there right to avoid any opression of freedom happening again. Believe me: I know a fascist when I see one, and ATM the Isreali government qualifies perfectly from my POV, as well as our Mr. Mas, but certainly not me or my friends that served under the same ideas induced in us by what happened in WWII, what our parents told us and what the US proclaimed with the Nuremberg trials.

Holocaust was the singular most abomable thing imaginable in mans history, porported by a whole people (us Germans), so: We should not let it happen again, under whatever flag or name. And if it is Israel that I see acting going the same way, then I will say so, threaten me with legal action if you like, looking forward to debate this in front of any court.

And, of course, any Israeli army officer is a neutral referee in this respect, like any ex Waffen-SS officer nowadys about the Nazi crimes, I will accept this by leaving.

Time will put everybody in his place (and every ideology or state).

Rattler
« Last Edit: 22 January 2013, 00:29:42 by Rattler » Logged

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stoffel
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« Reply #8 on: 22 January 2013, 11:21:35 »
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Matt,

A rather silly remark by you regarding the Israeli officer.
Specially since you dont know what Koen and I are talking about......

Also the remark about the entire German people responsible for the Holocaust is a bit odd, because a small minority like the Algemeine SS (partly the Waffen SS), Gestapo and SD were responsible for those crimes.
Like I said before the kings here in Holland have murdered many more pople than the nazis in the Dutch Indies, Africa and more places.
Do I need to feel guilty of those crimes 200 years later,no, same as you should not feel guilty about the crimes committed by others. Specially because its not your fault.

Regarding Monty.
There is a line between freedom of speach and decent behaviour.
Freedom of speech shouldnt mean offending people which is what he did......

But I will make it easier for you 3 to stay.
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Rattler
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« Reply #9 on: 22 January 2013, 20:39:29 »
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Regarding Monty.
There is a line between freedom of speach and decent behaviour.
Freedom of speech shouldnt mean offending people which is what he did......

Maybe you *felt offended*, I concide this to be possible or probable, but he did not offend, he said what he thought (which is a difference as you already stated).

Rattler
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Koen
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« Reply #10 on: 22 January 2013, 20:52:45 »
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Regarding Monty.
There is a line between freedom of speach and decent behaviour.
Freedom of speech shouldnt mean offending people which is what he did......

Maybe you *felt offended*, I concide this to be possible or probable, but he did not offend, he said what he thought (which is a difference as you already stated).

Rattler

which is what I tried to explain.... if one should be offended it's me who was called a neonazi

but I didn't because the accusation was so ridiculous I couldn't take it serious (regarding where it came from)

Why is a person who accuses someone being a neonazi isn't 'blamed' but the one who reacts IS?

Because the accuser is a Jew and the other one isn't? Dunno but these things keep coming back over and over again...

sure, it's all political but WE aren't

so if it doesn't work here on WaT we are the same as the one we blame, the politicians, the persons who take the wrong actions
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Koen
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« Reply #11 on: 23 January 2013, 22:17:09 »
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But I will make it easier for you 3 to stay

that is not a solution
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Koen
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« Reply #12 on: 24 January 2013, 20:18:56 »
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so this is it?

the last years I have learned ALOT

about managing, about motivating people, about communicating (and not only here at WaT)

but what do I get? the confirmation that it's better not to get too close to people since people mostly think of themselves and can't, for whatever reason, put themselves into the mind of someone else.

you guys are the closest to what I consider as friends (but I admit I have no friends at all since my description of 'friend' is quite challenging) but it seems that altough you guys are intelligent and well known of hitorical facts the lessons are not learned or understood

what I was looking for at WaT was a source to debate, communicate and discuss

people have been convincing me that quality (less members) was more important than quantity

but all that doesn't seem to work

Am I the only one who has been questioning himself?
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stoffel
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« Reply #13 on: 25 January 2013, 00:13:57 »
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Well,

To be honoust.
If someone standing in front of me would say,  quote: "Let Hitler have continue for several years so we would have had no problems now" he will have a very unpleasant moment with me.
That is pure anti-semitisme and punishable by Dutch law.
And yes, being a jew and having a mother in law who survived a camp doesnt make me as "objective" as some would like me to be, hey I am just a human being to with my emotions and problems.
With Monty saying that without saying sorry afterwards shows to me that he meant this.
With my statement I meant that I will stay out of such debates from now, but be aware.........I will not tolerate such things anymore.

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Koen
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« Reply #14 on: 25 January 2013, 21:16:58 »
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Well,

To be honoust.
If someone standing in front of me would say,  quote: "Let Hitler have continue for several years so we would have had no problems now" he will have a very unpleasant moment with me.
That is pure anti-semitisme and punishable by Dutch law.
And yes, being a jew and having a mother in law who survived a camp doesnt make me as "objective" as some would like me to be, hey I am just a human being to with my emotions and problems.
With Monty saying that without saying sorry afterwards shows to me that he meant this.
With my statement I meant that I will stay out of such debates from now, but be aware.........I will not tolerate such things anymore.

true, that sentence is too much and well over the line...

BUT, that statement didn't come out of hatred against the Jews

what I think/presume is that MontyB his bucket got full and started dripping over the edges.... and then we come to the same point... the point where most people just can't get over...

all sides accuse the other side and they all have their reason and most are believable and understandable

but not 1 reason gets sides closer to the other one

fences
wars
killings


and still.... sometimes you see a tiny light at the end of the tunnel

https://www.facebook.com/israellovesiran

there are possibilities but who sees them?

99% of the people see the obstacles
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Alan65
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« Reply #15 on: 7 February 2013, 20:13:26 »
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 Hello, all!

Koen, am I one of the '5 active members'?  I haven't been around for a month or so as other activities take more and more of my time.

I do have several comments for consideration.  First, I looked at the page views and they are slightly up for December '12 and January '13 from the level they were at (more or less) for the previous 6 months or so before that.  That could be a sign of hope although it depends on who is doing the viewing.  For my part, I don't necessarily need responses to my posts--images of the banknotes of war or postcards I post--but I am glad to see some of the topics I post are regularly read and looked at. 

Secondly, I don't come to WaT to engage in current events discussions for the most part for a couple of reasons.  I used to do that on another site and it  always ended in frustration for many of the reasons already discussed here.  I'm happy to give some insight to Europeans about 'life in the US', for example, but it's always only my perspective.  Debating issues is a dead-end proposition on the internet, imo, however.  The type of posts I enjoy are ones like Mad Russians just did about Japanese tank insignia; I use WaT for historical resources.  (Well, also to keep in touch with the friends I've met like Koen and Stoffel; Monty and I wouldn't see eye-to-eye on much politically, I believe, but we had good interactions I thought.  Same for FACman.)

anyway, I've gotta go right now but will be back soon!
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stoffel
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« Reply #16 on: 22 August 2013, 10:22:00 »
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Just a short note,

I for one wasnt to happy to start all sort of political discussions.
I was under the impression we would build a huge data base covering all aspects of war in general.
So far we have lots of articles, topics and more.
The growing number of views confince me we have a good site.
Many friends have found information they were looking for.
Lets keep walking that way, its a good one.
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