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Author Topic: Death penalty?  (Read 4325 times)
Koen
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« on: 8 December 2009, 20:59:58 »
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quite interesting story to read

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Mark Davis: Wishful thinking on both sides of Willingham case

Monday, October 26, 2009

So did Texas execute an innocent man on Feb. 17, 2004? The answer is obscured by the crossfire between two camps: Those who desperately want the answer to be no, and those who desperately want the answer to be yes.

One can understand why Gov. Rick Perry and his supporters want the answer to be no. One can understand why rabid anti-death penalty critics want the answer to be yes.

But political reputations, public- and private-sector egos and our opinions about the death penalty need to be shelved so the Cameron Todd Willingham case can be assessed on its merits.

I am an ardent death penalty supporter, but nothing would impede my arrival at a proper conclusion that an innocent man was executed. My very support of capital punishment is predicated on my faith in the guilt of those on death row in Texas and every other state. I would never fudge evidence against the condemned to justify my desire to see the line move in Huntsville.

Death penalty opponents are morally bound to mirror that standard. Their wish for zero executions must never lead to the sloppy embrace of questionable voices criticizing verdicts and asserting innocence.

The popular narrative so far has featured Perry's removal of some members of the Texas Forensic Science Commission on the eve of what would have been uncomfortable testimony from a fire expert who finds fault with the methodology of the investigative work that contributed to Willingham's 1992 conviction for burning down the Corsicana house with his three children inside.

Smelling a cover-up, voices whose dislike for Perry is exceeded only by their distaste for the death penalty shout that the delay in the commission's business must mean Willingham is innocent.

At the head of this presumptuous pack is Barry Scheck of the Innocence Project, a group that deserves accolades for finding DNA evidence that has sprung provably innocent people from prison.

But Scheck believes the Willingham story is just as cut and dried, and he is profoundly mistaken. "There can no longer be any doubt that an innocent person has been executed," he proclaims recklessly, despite detailed rebuttals from the people who actually worked the case.

Freeing truly innocent people is apparently not enough for Scheck, who now seeks the heroic Holy Grail of anti-death-penalty advocates – a provable case of an innocent man put to death.

If his zeal compromises his objectivity, so be it. Such is the occasional byproduct of activism. But what if the "expert," awaited with panting anticipation by enemies of Perry and capital punishment, is a hack, too?

Dr. Craig Beyler is not reacting well to losing his moment in the spotlight. Even though his report is out and he may yet detail it before the commission, he is on a rampage of ego-soaked vendettas. Calling the governor "clueless" and demanding that newly named commission members resign is not the sound of a confident professional. It is the sound of a petulant narcissist whose snarky language brought his condescending report into question in the first place.

And let the record show that Beyler does not say the fire that killed Willingham's three children was not arson.

The Perry camp asserts that the replaced commission members were at the end of their terms. This is true. But it's also true that they should have foreseen the bludgeoning they would take for timing that makes them look suspicious at best.

Beyler should have testified, on time, before the commission as it stood. Then we should have heard from city officials who recommend retesting the samples from the house using modern techniques. That does not smack of a cover-up. There is no shortage of current and former witnesses willing to rebut Beyler about the investigative techniques used at the time.

But while the commission is limited to forensic examination of the arson issue, everyone should perform the mouse clicks needed to see the compelling additional evidence that the jury relied on for the conviction, evidence reviewed over the course of five appeals over 12 years. Start at the Corsicana Daily Sun, which has spoken to several figures glad to respond.

There will be no clear finding that Texas executed an innocent man. I am comfortable with the conscientiousness of the original investigators, a responsible jury and a turnstile of five appeals.

Criticize the timing of the commission replacements if you like. I have.

But the notion that this is a clear cover-up of an innocent death is the fantasy of those looking for the end of the death penalty, the Perry administration or both.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham

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Cameron Todd Willingham (January 9, 1968, Carter County, Oklahoma – February 17, 2004, Huntsville Unit, Huntsville, Texas) was convicted of murder and executed for the deaths of his three young children via arson at the family home in Corsicana, Texas.

Willingham's case gained renewed attention in 2009 when an investigative report in The New Yorker, drawing upon arson investigation experts and advances in fire science, purported to demonstrate that, contrary to the claims of the prosecution, there was no evidence that the house fire was intentionally set, and that the State of Texas executed an innocent man. According to an August 2009 investigative report by an expert hired by the Texas Forensic Science Commission, the original claims of arson were not sustainable; the Corsicana Fire Department disputes the findings, stating that the expert's report overlooked several key points in the record. The case has been further complicated by allegations that Governor of Texas Rick Perry has impeded the investigation by replacing four of the nine Commission members in an attempt to change the Commission's findings; Perry denies the charges stating that no fewer than nine appellate courts ruled against Willingham in his efforts to have his conviction overturned.

The fire occurred at the Willingham home in Corsicana, Texas on December 23, 1991. Killed in the fire were Willingham's three daughters: two-year-old Amber Louise Kuykendall and one-year-old twins Karmon Diane Willingham and Kameron Marie Willingham. Willingham himself escaped the home with only minor burns. Stacy Kuykendall, Willingham's then-wife and the mother of his three daughters, was not home at the time of the fire, as she was out shopping. Prosecutors charged that Willingham set the fire and killed the children in an attempt to cover up abuse of the girls. This was in spite of the fact that that there was never any evidence of child abuse and Willingham's wife, Stacy, had told prosecutors that he had never abused the children. "Our kids were spoiled rotten", she said and insisted he would never harm their children.

Evidence

Charcoal starter fluid and an outdoor grill were kept on the front porch of Willingham’s house as evidenced by a melted container found there. Some of this fluid may have entered the front doorway of the house carried along by fire hose water. While laboratory tests verified that an accelerant was used only near the front porch, it was alleged that this fluid was deliberately poured near the front porch, a children's bedroom and a hallway to start the fire and that Willingham included the entranceway by the front porch so as to impede rescue attempts. The prosecution used this and other arson theories that have since been brought into question.

Gerald Hurst, who has a Ph.D. in chemistry, examined the arson evidence compiled by Manuel Vasquez, the state deputy fire marshal. Hurst said that Vasquez was incorrect when he said that the extreme heat of the fire (as evidenced by a melted aluminum threshold) indicated that an accelerant was used, and said that experiments prove that wood and liquid accelerant fires can burn with equal heat. Hurst's own experiments showed that burning with an accelerant does not leave the kind of brown stains that Vasquez claimed were created that way. Hurst also said that the crazed glass that Vasquez said was caused by a liquid accelerant had been created by brush fires elsewhere. Experiments showed that crazed glass was caused not by rapid heating but by cooling, and that glass cooled by water from a fire hose was more likely to have a crazed or cracked pattern. A $20,000.00 experimental house fire set without an accelerant created the same pour patterns and V shaped pattern that Vasquez attributed to the use of a liquid accelerant. Vasquez thought that Willingham lied when he said he escaped without burning his feet, because he thought that an accelerant was used that would spread fire along the floor. However, since no accelerant was needed to create the results found, Willingham could well have been telling the truth when he said that he ran out without burning his feet, presuming he left before the fire achieved flashover. According to Hurst, when a fire reaches the flashover threshold, it is impossible to visually identify accelerant patterns. While the prosecutor thought that the "bizarre" path of the flame indicated that an accelerant was used, Hurst said that the path of the fire followed a post-flashover pattern of going in the direction of ventilation. Although Willingham was accused of using an accelerant in three different places, the front porch was the only place where an accelerant was verified by laboratory tests, and a photograph taken of the house before the fire showed that a charcoal grill was there. The family confirmed that lighter fluid was by the grill used for family barbecues. Water sprayed by firefighters likely spread the lighter fluid from the melted container. All twenty of the indications listed by Vasquez of an accelerant being used were rebutted by Hurst.

A report prepared by Craig Beyler for the Texas Forensic Science Commission said that investigators ignored the scientific method for analyzing fires described in NFPA 921, Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations and relied on "folklore" and "myths". Beyler also said that Vasquez was incorrect when he said that witnesses saw three different fires, and that they only reported smoke from the fire that began in the bedroom. Beyler wrote in his report, "in the end, the only (basis) for the determination of arson ... is the burn patterns on the floor of the children's bedroom, the hallway and the porch interpreted as accelerant spill. None of these determinations have any basis in modern fire science."

The Board of Pardons and Paroles received Hurst's description, but unanimously denied Willingham's petition for clemency. Governor Perry refused to grant a stay of execution, saying through a spokesperson that "The Governor made his decision based on the facts of the case." Governor Perry said that the "supposed experts" (using finger quotes) were wrong and not to listen to anti-death penalty "propaganda". Perry aide Mary Anne Wiley said the commission’s $30,000 hiring of fire scientist Craig Beyler was a waste of taxpayer money. Jackson, one of the prosecutors, admitted that an "undeniably flawed forensic report" was used to convict Willingham, but claimed that other reasons established guilt.

In addition to the arson evidence, a jailhouse informant named Johnny Webb claimed Willingham confessed that he set the fire to hide his wife's physical abuse of the girls, although the girls showed no other injuries besides those caused by the fire. Webb later told a reporter for The New Yorker, "it’s very possible I misunderstood what he said. Being locked up in that little cell makes you kind of crazy. My memory is in bits and pieces. I was on a lot of medication at the time. Everyone knew that." Webb was later diagnosed bipolar and even the prosecutor described Webb as "an unreliable kind of guy" yet after Webb's testimony Jackson successfully got him released from prison early. Webb later sent Jackson a Motion to Recant Testimony, that declared, “Mr. Willingham is innocent of all charges.” Willingham's attorneys were not notified and Webb later recanted his recantation. Webb later said, "The statute of limitations has run out on perjury, hasn’t it?"

During the penalty phase of the trial a prosecutor said that Willingham's tattoo of a skull and serpent fit the profile of a sociopath. Two medical experts confirmed the theory. A psychologist was asked to interpret Willingham's Iron Maiden poster, and said that a picture of a fist punching through a skull signified violence and death. He added that Willingham's Led Zeppelin poster of a fallen angel indicated "cultive-type" activities. Psychiatrist James Grigson said that Willingham was an "extremely severe sociopath" and was incurable. The same psychiatrist helped put another prisoner on death row who was later acquitted.

In 2009 Willingham's wife Stacy Kuykendall stated the following:
    He said the night before the fire we got in to an argument and you had said it again that you were going to divorce me. I told him yes I did say that. He told me that he believed I was going to but he couldn't let that happen. Todd told me that it was stupid but it was like an obsession. He said if I didn't have my girls I couldn't leave him and that I could never have Amber or the twins with anyone else but him. He told me he was sorry and that he hoped that I could forgive him one day.

Witnesses


According to testimony, at the time of the fire eyewitnesses reported that Willingham was outside the house and in a distressed state calling out that his babies were burning. He frantically told neighbor Diane Barbee to call the fire department and then broke the window out of the child's bedroom. He grew increasingly hysterical and had to be restrained with handcuffs to prevent him from re-entering the house. One early-arriving fireman said that he had also had to restrain Willingham for his own safety. One neighbor also testified that Willingham could have tried to re-enter the home to rescue the children. They allege he "crouched down" in his front yard and watched the house burn for a period of time without attempting to enter the home or go to neighbors for help or request they call firefighters. Eyewitnesses also described his appearance as having "singed hair on his chest, eyelids, and head and had a two inch burn injury on his right shoulder. His wrists and hands were blackened with smoke. He was eventually transported to the hospital for treatment, still resisting and still in handcuffs."

The testimony of several witnesses included contradictions. Diane Barbee said that Willingham never tried to reenter the burning house, although she had been absent from the scene while calling the fire department. Her daughter Buffie and firemen and the police reported Willingham breaking a window trying to reenter the house. Also, Barbee initially said that Willingham was "hysterical" and that the house was exploding. After Willingham was accused of murder Barbee said that Willingham could have reentered the house to save his children and that the smoke was not "real thick". Father Monaghan initially said that Willingham was devastated, and had to be restrained from reentering the burning building. After Willingham was accused of murder, Monaghan said that Willingham was too emotional, and that he had a "gut feeling" that Willingham had "something to do with the setting of the fire."

According to the Clark County prosecutor, an unnamed witness said that Willingham ignored his neighbor's pleas for him to rescue his children, and showed no remorse for their deaths. When the fire "blew out" the windows, he moved his car and was upset that his dart board was burned. Texas Execution Information claimed that Willingham was smiling and playing music the day after the fire.

Motivation

The prosecution claimed that Willingham may have been motivated by a desire to rid himself of his unwanted children. The prosecutor claimed that the fire which killed the children was the third attempt by Willingham to do so after attempting to abort each of two pregnancies by kicking his wife in order to cause miscarriages. However, in a follow up article by David Grann, it was noted that "...there is evidence that Willingham hit his wife, even when she was pregnant, but there were no police reports or medical evidence indicating that Willingham had tried to abort or kill his children" and that "Willingham’s wife insisted during the trial and under interrogation that Willingham had not physically abused the children."

The prosecutor also claimed that Willingham was a serial wife abuser, both physically and emotionally. Jackson also claimed Willingham had abused animals and was a sociopath. However, those not associated with the case paint a different picture of Willingham. His former probation officer, Polly Goodin, said he had never demonstrated bizarre or sociopathic behavior and “He was probably one of my favorite kids,” she said. Even a former judge named Bebe Bridges—who had often stood, as she put it, on the “opposite side” of Willingham in the legal system, and who had sent him to jail for stealing—said that she could not imagine him killing his children. “He was polite, and he seemed to care,” she said.

Trial

Willingham was charged with murder on January 8, 1992. During his trial in August 1992, he was offered a life term in exchange for a guilty plea, which he turned down insisting he was innocent. At trial, the fire investigator Vasquez testified that there were three points of origin for the fire, which indicated that the fire was "intentionally set by human hands". A sample of burned material near the doorway of the house tested positive for mineral spirits, indicating the presence of lighter fluid. Willingham had escaped the fire with bare feet and no burn marks. This was taken as evidence that accelerant was poured by Willingham as he left the house. Several witnesses testified for the prosecution.

In 2009, John Jackson, the prosecutor at the trial stated that burns suffered by Willingham were so superficial as to suggest that the same were self-inflicted in an attempt to divert suspicion from himself. However, The New Yorker writer David Grann says that fire investigators who reviewed the case told him that "Willingham’s first-degree and second-degree burns were consistent with being in a fire before the moment of 'flashover'—that is, when everything in a room suddenly ignites."

Commenting on the condition of the house, Jackson added "any escape or rescue route from the burning house was blocked by a refrigerator which had been pushed against the back door, requiring any person attempting escape to run through the conflagration at the front of the house." There were two refrigerators in the Willingham house. Jimmie Hensley, a police detective, and Douglas Fogg, the assistant fire chief, who both investigated the fire, told The New Yorker author Grann that they had never believed that the fridge was part of the arson plot. “It didn’t have nothing to do with the fire,” Fogg said.

Jackson also contradicted Willingham's account by claiming blood-gas analysis at Navarro Regional Hospital shortly after the fire revealed that Willingham had not inhaled any smoke. Willingham's statement and eyewitness accounts had detailed rescue attempts.

Consistent with typical Navarro County death penalty practice, Willingham was offered the opportunity to eliminate himself as a suspect by polygraph examination, which "was rejected in the most vulgar and insulting manner," according to Jackson. Against the advice of his own counsel, Willingham also declined a life sentence in exchange for his guilty plea. He insisted he would not admit to something he had not done, even if it meant sparing his life.

Appeals and Execution

Willingham maintained his innocence up until his death and spent years trying to appeal his conviction. The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals denied Willingham a writ of habeas corpus a month before his execution. Dr. Gerald Hurst, an Austin scientist and fire investigator, reviewed the case and concluded there was "no evidence of arson", the same conclusion reached by other fire investigators. Hurst's report was sent to governor Rick Perry's office as well as Board of Pardons and Paroles along with Willingham's appeal for clemency. Neither responded to Willingham's appeals. "The whole case was based on the purest form of junk science," Hurst later said. "There was no item of evidence that indicated arson." Perry spokeswoman Katherine Cesinger said the Governor had weighed the "totality of the issues that led to (Willingham's) conviction." She said he was aware of a "claim of a reinterpretation of (the) arson testimony."

Willingham was executed by lethal injection on February 17, 2004, at the Texas State Penitentiary in Huntsville. He was 36 years old.

When asked if he had a final statement, Willingham said: "Yeah. The only statement I want to make is that I am an innocent man convicted of a crime I did not commit. I have been persecuted for 12 years for something I did not do. From God's dust I came and to dust I will return, so the earth shall become my throne. I gotta go, Road Dog. I love you, Gabby."

He then addressed his ex-wife, Stacy Kuykendall, who was watching about 8 feet away through a window. Willingham said, "I hope you rot in hell", and then attempted to maneuver his hand, strapped at the wrist to the execution gurney, into an obscene gesture. Kuykendall showed no reaction to the outburst. While she initially believed in her husband's innocence, following the trial she told him she no longer believed him and publicized her change of heart. Willingham was pronounced dead at 6:20 p.m., seven minutes after the lethal dose of chemicals began.

Post-execution attention

Since Willingham's execution, persistent questions have been raised as to the accuracy of the forensic evidence used in the conviction; specifically, whether it can be proven that an accelerant (such as the lighter fluid mentioned above) was used to start the fatal fire. Fire investigator Gerald L. Hurst reviewed the case documents, including the trial transcriptions and an hour-long videotape of the aftermath of the fire scene. Hurst said in December 2004 that "There's nothing to suggest to any reasonable arson investigator that this was an arson fire. It was just a fire."

In June 2009 the State of Texas ordered an unprecedented re-examination of the case and may issue a ruling on it at a later date.[citation needed] In August 2009, seventeen years after the fire and five years after Willingham's execution, a report conducted by Dr. Craig Beyler, hired by the Texas Forensic Science Commission to review the case, found that "a finding of arson could not be sustained". Beyler said that key testimony from a fire marshal at Willingham's trial was "hardly consistent with a scientific mind-set and is more characteristic of mystics or psychics".

The presiding judge in the case, John Jackson, and the City of Corsicana have both released formal responses to the Beyler Report on the investigation of the fire that killed Willingham's three children at the behest of the Texas Forensic Science Commission. Both were sharply critical of Beyler. In a 2009 article discussing the reasons why Willingham was found guilty, Jackson recalled witness statements established that Willingham was overheard whispering to his deceased older daughter at the funeral home, "You're not the one who was supposed to die." Jackson stated that Willingham's comments was an indicator of guilt. In a rebuttal David Grann wrote, "If the arson investigators had concluded there was no scientific evidence that a crime had occurred—as the top fire investigators in the country have now determined—Willingham’s words at the funeral would surely be viewed as a sign that he was tormented by the fact that he had survived without saving his children."

An August 2009 Chicago Tribune investigative article concluded: "Over the past five years, the Willingham case has been reviewed by nine of the nation's top fire scientists—first for the Tribune, then for the Innocence Project, and now for the commission. All concluded that the original investigators relied on outdated theories and folklore to justify the determination of arson. The only other evidence of significance against Willingham was twice recanted testimony by another inmate who testified that Willingham had confessed to him. Jailhouse snitches are viewed with skepticism in the justice system, so much so that some jurisdictions have restrictions against their use."

The Texas Forensic Science Commission was scheduled to discuss the report by Dr Beyler at a meeting on October 2, 2009, but two days before the meeting Texas Governor Rick Perry replaced the chair of the commission and two other members. The new chair canceled the meeting—sparking accusations that Perry was interfering with the investigation and using it for his own political advantage.

In October 2009 the city of Corsicana released two affidavits that included statements from Ronnie Kuykendall, the former brother-in-law of Willingham, originally made in 2004. According to the affidavits, Willingham's ex-wife had told Ronnie that Willingham had confessed to her that he had set the fire. Stacy herself told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram on 25 October 2009 that during a final prison meeting just weeks before he was put to death Willingham admitted setting the fire, as a response to Stacy's alleged threats of divorce the night before. Journalists familiar with the case noted that Stacy Kuykendall's statement explicitly contradicted previous comments, legal testimony, and numerous published interviews before and after the execution. This was also noted by Willingham's prosecutor, who said "It’s hard for me to make heads or tails of anything she said or didn’t say." For example, Stacy had earlier in 2009 supported her 2004 contradiction of her brother's affidavit (saying that there had been no confession), and had previously always maintained that things had been amicable between her and Willingham before the fire.

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Rattler
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« Reply #1 on: 8 December 2009, 21:37:07 »
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we will never know the truth, methinks, but I can clearly see there are some miserable lives displayed, for different reasons, both from the sociopat (?) and from the govenor´s side.

Rattler
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« Reply #2 on: 9 December 2009, 20:31:48 »
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again in the newspapers today...the last one they executed they 'experimented' with a new poison....'experementing' with such a middle-age action in 2009?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/08/ohio-execution-lethal-injection

Quote
Ohio today became the first state in America to put to death a prisoner using a single drug lethal injection in a technique that lawyers and campaigners have criticised as human experimentation.

Kenneth Biros was pronounced dead at 11.47am today, about 10 minutes after being given an overdose of the powerful anaesthetic thiopental sodium through an intravenous drip (IV) into his left arm.

The procedure was introduced by the Ohio state authorities to circumvent legal challenges brought after Romell Broom was given a stay of execution as he was actually lying on the gurney after technicians had tried and failed for two hours to give him the three-drug lethal injection - the most common form of capital punishment in America. He was sent back to death row. The executioners had been unable to find a working vein to insert the IV. The new single-drug method was designed to allow for a back-up position in which a combination of two painkillers could be injected directly into muscle.

Paradoxically, the executioners again struggled for up to half an hour on Tuesday to find a vein in Biros in which to put the IV through which his single anaesthetic was administered. His lawyers, who had made numerous attempts to persuade the courts to postpone his execution on grounds that the technique was untried and amounted to human experimentation, said the procedure had proven flawed.

John Parker, one of Biros' lawyers, said he had counted nine attempts to find a vein in the prisoner's left arm.

Deborah Denno, a specialist in execution methods at Fordham University in New York, said on the one hand it was good news that Ohio had dropped the use of a paralytic agent - the second in the three-drug cocktail used by all 35 other death penalty states - because that had been shown to induce extreme pain, but finding veins was still clearly a problem, and the so-called back-up of injecting painkillers into muscle was untested and could lead to a lingering death. She predicted future challenges.

Debi Heiss, sister of Tami Engstrom who was murdered by Biros in 1991 when she was 22, attended the execution, and told the Columbus Dispatch that it had gone "too smooth. I think he should have gone through some pain for what he did".

Ohio will today reconsider whether to send Broom back to the death chamber under the single-drug policy.

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« Reply #3 on: 9 December 2009, 22:32:08 »
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-snip- ...'experementing' with such a middle-age action in 2009?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/08/ohio-execution-lethal-injection

Quote
-snip- Debi Heiss, sister of Tami Engstrom who was murdered by Biros in 1991 when she was 22, attended the execution, and told the Columbus Dispatch that it had gone "too smooth. I think he should have gone through some pain for what he did".

Ohio will today reconsider whether to send Broom back to the death chamber under the single-drug policy.



Koen, what do you expect with ppl that live and feel the old testament instead of the new, however "christian" they claim to be?

Rattler
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« Reply #4 on: 9 December 2009, 22:43:51 »
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-snip- ...'experementing' with such a middle-age action in 2009?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/08/ohio-execution-lethal-injection

Quote
-snip- Debi Heiss, sister of Tami Engstrom who was murdered by Biros in 1991 when she was 22, attended the execution, and told the Columbus Dispatch that it had gone "too smooth. I think he should have gone through some pain for what he did".

Ohio will today reconsider whether to send Broom back to the death chamber under the single-drug policy.



Koen, what do you expect with ppl that live and feel the old testament instead of the new, however "christian" they claim to be?

Rattler



People that quote from testaments/Koran or other so called books of rules always seem to be the lesser intelligent ones, don't they have an opinion on their own?

I ask myself alot: am I a believer? I am a christian since I was baptised and did my 2nd renewal at 12 years old but I hate it how religion is abused by people....
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« Reply #5 on: 10 December 2009, 06:25:12 »
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-snip- ...'experementing' with such a middle-age action in 2009?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/08/ohio-execution-lethal-injection

Quote
-snip- Debi Heiss, sister of Tami Engstrom who was murdered by Biros in 1991 when she was 22, attended the execution, and told the Columbus Dispatch that it had gone "too smooth. I think he should have gone through some pain for what he did".

Ohio will today reconsider whether to send Broom back to the death chamber under the single-drug policy.



Koen, what do you expect with ppl that live and feel the old testament instead of the new, however "christian" they claim to be?

Rattler



Where does it say she's Christian in that article. She's Buddhist.

Good Hunting.

MR

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« Reply #6 on: 10 December 2009, 09:03:10 »
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I am christian because my parenbts decided, but I am now agnostic. I don´t believe in what another man says about God. Sometimes I feel the necesity of believing in Anything, ans sometimes don´t. My work is hard I see many inocents dying, some of them children, when I was military I was in an unit specially pro-kill or die...so, I laughed aot loud when priest came to talk about love.

About the death  penalty. Depends on, when  completely proved I will go on with it, and depending on the acts he did I will change the way of ending his life.

Example: Child abuser....burnt alive and slowly.
here is a video which explains Garrote Vil, the way we used in Spain

El Garrote. The Garotte
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« Reply #7 on: 10 December 2009, 15:34:29 »
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The article doesn't say if she's Christian or not. I have no idea what faith she is. The article doesn't say.

I think it's tremendously presumptuous that she was labeled a Christian and that Oh how wrong that was.

I remember Rattler earlier saying he would hunt down those that would hurt his own family. And yet when this woman shared her views it's wrong.

Interesting POV.

Good Hunting.

MR
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« Reply #8 on: 10 December 2009, 22:57:16 »
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The article doesn't say if she's Christian or not. I have no idea what faith she is. The article doesn't say.

I think it's tremendously presumptuous that she was labeled a Christian and that Oh how wrong that was.

I remember Rattler earlier saying he would hunt down those that would hurt his own family. And yet when this woman shared her views it's wrong.

Interesting POV.

Good Hunting.

MR


I had intended to stay quiet on this one after your reply that she was Buddhist and it should be clear (she is Christian like myself, btw, do your research; also, to now reply, the feelings she expresses are non-Buddhist to the max), but this your new reply is taking it a notch too far for remaining still as you are mixing really different things in a - from my POV - demagogic way Goebbels would have approved as it was his expressively stated recepie: To paint a person hateable, of what he said/wrote/expressed, simply mix a bit of truth with half truth/lie, and leave out the rest to overall create a picture that suits you and your followers, you can paint a non-person w/o clear moral and ethical standards who can legitimately be pursued and hassled...

Cannot let it stand like that, because your apparently demagogic summary of my stances *directly* opposes what I am thinking, believing and have gone ways to transmit to my sons:

Truth(s):


- I have repeatedly stated that I *cannot understand* e.g. that within 1.000 ETA victims not one of the families involved (talking a statistical solid base here, make it average 6.000 ppl) have undertaken to devote the rest of their live to find the guys responsible for their wive/kid/nephew,/uncl/grandfather assasination...

- I also have stated that, should a member of my family fall to a terrorist act, I would pursue the guys for the rest of my life personally until I got them located and flushed out (or die in the intent).

- I also have stated that I do *understand* vengative feelings, and have mused that I would probably myself *feel compelled* to act on venegance should it hit me or my family.

Lie(s)

- I have never stated that I would feel pleasure in seeing the perpetuator feel pain, and less that the more pain he felt, the better, I consider such desire as inhuman as the act of a terrorist.

- I have never stated that I share the feeling out of vengance that the assasin of some of my family would have to suffer in order to make me feel better (sic).

- I have never stated that I am for the Death Penalty (quite to the contrary, actually).

Left Out(s):

- I have repeatedly stated that taking justice in your own hands is - while understandable seeing the temptation - a bad idea and contrary to all what we as civiization have achieved and hundreds of thousands of ppl have died for to achieve it.

- I have repeatedly stated that even in the hypothetical terrorist case mentioned above I would *not* seek personal vengance through killing, even if it was my own kid.

- I have repeatedly stated that I hope to be stable enough in my composture to dodge the temptation to fall for an ey-for-eye-tooth-for-tooth type of vengance.

- I have repeeatedly stated that anybody taking justice in his own hands (e.g. killing an assassin of a family member) should bear the full consequences juridically, (i.e. should be treated as the same type of assisin himself).

Just for the Record,

Rattler
Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
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