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Author Topic: the right to carry arms? f*** you!  (Read 12466 times)
Alan65
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« Reply #20 on: 19 December 2012, 21:47:09 »
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and again some tough guys wil say the right to carry arms ensure a safer community



I'm not a 'tough guy' but here's a Valparaiso Law Revue article proving that law-abiding US citizens being allowed to carry concealed handguns does decrease crime:
http://scholar.valpo.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1853&context=vulr&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dvalparaiso%2Blaw%2Brevue%2Bconceal%2Bcarry%2Blaws%26q%3Dvalparaiso%2Blaw%2Brevue%2Bconceal%2Bcarry%2Blaws%26src%3DIE-SearchBox%26Form%3DIE8SRC#search=%22valparaiso%20law%20revue%20conceal%20carry%20laws%22
« Last Edit: 20 December 2012, 18:34:30 by Alan65 » Logged
Koen
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« Reply #21 on: 19 December 2012, 22:17:37 »
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I am 'for' liberties and I do acknowledge that although some (few) can't handle liberties not a complete community should be punished by seeing their liberties restricted

But is a 200 year old 'law' still 'actual'? Yes, freedom of speech is also old and actual but that has not the same effect as carrying a gun. Speech doesn't kill although people have been killed when they use that right.

I'm also aware of the disaster of the alcohol ban in the US in the 30s but still I'm not convinced it's comparable.

Now I read about the thoughts on the 'clips' and I really start to wonder if they're gonna start a 'math' contest:

*how many people may/allowed a shooter kill with 1 clip?============ let's say 2 bullets for 1 kill ============= 5victims means 10 bullets========= is that ok?

*are we deciding on the size of clips by the number of victims a killer may shoot?


--------------------------------

as with your European questions:

Europe is NOT what US citizens probably think it is... as a Belgian citizen I see France/UK/Netherlands/Germany/Luxembourg/Austria with the Scandinavian countries as 1 part of Europe

Italy/Spain/Greece/Portugal as another part

the Baltics as a 3rd part

and there are more....

There is no Europe when we talk about the same rules and/or standards so it's impossible to talk about Europeans as you see it.

***alcohol IS an issue - I think that on a certain point it's similar as the US guns when people start seeing it as 'normal'
***another issue in Europe and maybe I should say 'Flemish' since it's something you feel from the inside is the lack of discipline.... at school teachers can't be tough anymore or they end up before a court.... no army times anymore... parents are too busy with paying off too many bills so they don't have time anymore to educate their children... and certainly not to take a stand prohibiting booze or smokes...
***how do you think we feel when we look at Greece where a neonazi party is having it's best time ever? we feel sick! when I see docus about them I see poor people who will do anything to get some food... even sign up for a neonazi party! and NO, the ones who caused the disaster are NOT punished but bankers seem to be protected by higher powers... money will get you anything!

no, we aren't 'accomodated', not at all...

how do you think I feel when I see starving children at TV when a bit later a Flemish discotheque pays 500.000€ at Paris Hilton to do a Belgian appearance?
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« Reply #22 on: 20 December 2012, 11:05:43 »
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Sorry but Amsterdam might have some murders its nothing in comparision with a normal US town.

number of deaths in masterdam 2012 were 31 which is not much.
Numbers of deaths in Us towns are wel over 1000 to 2000 for most cities where total number of deats were 250 only in my entire country.....
Now I did a search in the justice files and found this.......

39% of kills were done by guns, almost all of them murders among criminils like liquidations and drugrelated crimes.
32% poeple killed by knifes , large part of that were family dramas, few are done with guns.
10% by baseball bat or similar type.
The rest of the murders were done by using poision, cars, drowning and any other way you can think of to kill somebody.

This shows two important things.
Most murders arent committed by guns. (39%)
In many cases people use weapons of opportunity like knives or stranglation(61%).
Guns are often only used by criminals and in most cases are illegal.Exceptions with guns are the shooting of a family by the father and the shooting in the Mall in Alphen which were done by people who were mentally ill.
That shows gun control and tough control on who carries them work.
Therefor gun manufacturers should be the ones who shouldnt make more weapons than needed by law enforcement.
A better way would be to come up with a chip or an other device that can track every weapon.( like we use in the army)
If thats implemented on a weapon after buying a policeofficer can bring in an owner for questioning once his gun is missing or when he fails to show it or when he has disabled the chip.
That also has a positive effect because a weapon will be more expensive and the gun wont turn up on the black market that fast Smiley
And also very important, you have to undergo a thorough test at a policestation which includes a check on your mental state of health.
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Koen
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« Reply #23 on: 20 December 2012, 11:41:32 »
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Quote
A better way would be to come up with a chip or an other device that can track every weapon.( like we use in the army)

I had to chip my dogs so......... are my dogs then more dangerous then an assault weapon?
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Alan65
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« Reply #24 on: 20 December 2012, 18:28:34 »
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Koen, about the clips:  that's exactly what politicians in the US are saying; that's why I ask.  The thinking is that a 3 round capacity will stop a burglar [heck, an empty gun will stop one] but not slaughter 20 kids in school (although, why a psycho couldn't just carry 5 guns to get his massacre is not clear.)  Politicians are also talking about restricting the rate of fire allowed (some of which is already done)  So, yes, US politicians and many citizens discussing this are "using math."
The US Constitution was written with the idea that responsible citizens would be living under these laws and obviously, our education system isn't doing a good job in preparing young people to become happy, healthy and responsible old people.

Stoffel, my figures were comparing the US national average to Amsterdam's.  Of course, New York City, Chicago, L.A., Miami have more.  I did that because the site I found showed rates for each European country alongside that nation's capital city.  Amsterdam had nearly 4 murders per 100,000 population and the US national average is 4.35/100,000.  Luxembourg City is over 4 and Estonia and Lithuania were both at 6 and 8 per 100k, respectively.  [Edit:  I think chips are a good idea.  if you can find your stolen car with one, you should find one with a gun.  would probably take several chips or a chip integrated to the most important parts so criminals don't/can't change them.)]

I just heard in the US, about 2/3 of murders are with guns, so it's obviously the 'weapon of choice' for murder.  I bet it's mostly because of gang activity and organized crime.  I've also heard that males are more 'successful' at suicide since they choose a gun to attempt it while females take pills, use gas, etc.

Oh, here are the sites with US crime rates:  http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
Here's the site I used for European figures: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Crime_trends_in_detail
« Last Edit: 20 December 2012, 18:35:25 by Alan65 » Logged
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« Reply #25 on: 20 December 2012, 18:57:57 »
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There is a big problem with those numbers for Amsterdam.
Most of those are criminals, and of those many come from abroad and dont live in Amsterdam.
Thats why I mentioned only 250 in the entire country.Thats 1 on 80.000.......and of that total 61% isnt killed with a gun.

A chip will work, to compare it with a dog is a bit silly Koen cause its something totally different.
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Koen
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« Reply #26 on: 20 December 2012, 19:25:53 »
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There is a big problem with those numbers for Amsterdam.
Most of those are criminals, and of those many come from abroad and dont live in Amsterdam.
Thats why I mentioned only 250 in the entire country.Thats 1 on 80.000.......and of that total 61% isnt killed with a gun.

A chip will work, to compare it with a dog is a bit silly Koen cause its something totally different.

ofcourse it's silly, that's why I referred to it! when it's possible and forced by law to inject your dog with a chip..... isn't a gun more dangerous?Huh?Huh?
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« Reply #27 on: 20 December 2012, 20:13:16 »
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LOL, a dog can be a dangerous weapon to....... whistle
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« Reply #28 on: 21 December 2012, 20:09:09 »
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Just saw the NRA spokesman...interesting that they blame the media.
Ideal way to avoid the realquestion, doi  they do enough to stop gun usage and to make America safer?

Their Idea to place armed cops in the schools is interesting to.
I learn if you want to secure a building you need at least 4 men to guard every corner.
That makes 12 men if you put them there for 8 hours a day.
Another question will be , what do you arm them with?
Do they carry a pistol only and by doing so making them a target to for guys armed with assaultrifles?
Or do we give them an M4 or MP5, where you run the risk that they attract people?
Or even worse that future killers start wearing bodyarmor or take bombs with them

Personally I dont think thats a good choice, and also important in times of budgetcuts its simply not affordable.
Now look at the number of buildings involved which are probably thousands.......
But I am sure the NRA will pay for that idea.
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« Reply #29 on: 22 December 2012, 21:52:12 »
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and it doesn't stop: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/22/us/gunman-kills-3-in-central-pennsylvania.html
Quote
3 Fatally Shot By Gunman In Rural Area
A gunman fatally shot three people on Friday morning, including a woman who was hanging Christmas decorations inside a church, during a bloody rampage that spread terror along a stretch of two-lane country road in central Pennsylvania.
...

an interesting page with numbers: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/blow-on-guns-america-stands-out.html



next page is a picture page with pics of people preparing for doomsday: have look and tell me what you think when you saw all pics
http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012/12/preparing-for-the-end-of-the-world/100427/
« Last Edit: 22 December 2012, 22:23:22 by Koen » Logged
Alan65
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« Reply #30 on: 25 December 2012, 00:27:37 »
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thanks for the chart, Koen.

from a mathematics perspective, if guns caused gun violence, we would see similar homicide rates for areas with similar guns/person statistics.  We don't, ergo, guns don't cause gun violence!  Geschokt

I also think that the NRA's response (solution) isn't a good one from either an implementation stand-point or a public-relations viewpoint.
We do have junior and senior high schools with metal detectors at the door and armed security and gunman do not walk into those schools and do this sort of thing.  These school are generally urban and poor with another set of problems besides gun violence.  Psychos will simply find another way to kill and another venue in which to do it if you secure schools. (I'm not saying don't make schools more secure!)
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« Reply #31 on: 26 December 2012, 12:29:35 »
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Those numbers dont tell the story either.
If you compare France , Sweden, Finland and some others.
You see a high number of guns per 100 citizens.
Some 4 times higher than in my country, where the number of kills is just slightly higher.
I think in those countries many people have hunting rifles, shotguns and  so on.
And yes in countries with a high level of criminal activities there are more murders.

To me the numbers prove that the problem lays with people themselves.
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« Reply #32 on: 27 December 2012, 16:02:33 »
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The problem is that this is the United States we are talking about here. Not some other country.

People buy guns for 3 reasons.

1) For hunting.
2) For self protection.
3) For protection against the government.

A large part of the population hunts.

In the United States any citizen is capable of taking the law into their own hands. Anyone can make a citizens arrest. That includes the right to defend one's life, limb and property. Most Americans will take care of an issue on their own property if they can before calling the police.

This is the United States. This country was born out of a revolt against a repressive government. They have never forgotten that and the lessons of an unarmed civilian population continue daily. Egypt, Libya, Syria...all unarmed and having to have somebody else give them weapons so they can defend themselves from their own government.

You will not diminish the right of gun owners in the US. Since you can't do that, then what can you do? That's the question that they still haven't answered.

1) You must take soft targets like schools off the easy access list. However you do it schools must not be first on the list of undefended targets where the people are not armed.  Notice that shooters don't go to places where the people are armed and can defend themselves. They go where there are defenseless people or in this case defenseless children.

2) There needs to be more mental health care. If you notice, rarely is the shooter what anyone would call a stable person, that just got upset and started shooting people. No, the shooters are, for the most part, mentally unbalanced.



Good Hunting.

MR



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« Reply #33 on: 27 December 2012, 16:32:17 »
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Steve,

The two points you mentioned are vailid for me either.
But, as I said, what to do at a school, armed students arent a solution.
Thats already been tried, tests showed they failed in almost every situation (giving an attacker an extra gun).
Putting armed policemen there is economical not affordable for your government, specially rightnow.You would need thousands of men.
What do they carry around, a pistol, an MP5, an M4 with scopes and all, maybe give them a Minimi?
Triggering an arms race in schools where policemen have to be armed better than a possible attacker, an other problem is that these men are for sure to become the first targets.

And yes you are right in mentally sick people doing this.
What drives people to do acts like this?
The answer to the problem isnt an easy one.....I havent got one at the moment.
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« Reply #34 on: 27 December 2012, 17:53:35 »
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The problem is not an easy one or it would have been solved long before now.

Those with a one line answer seem to think the rest of us are just plain stupid.

"Just take all the guns away!"

"Stricter gun control!"

"Arm the teachers!"

If it was as simple as a single line answer don't you suppose it would have been done long ago?

That's because it's not simple, and attack rhetoric like "F*** you!" only shuts down discussion, not promotes it.

Good Hunting.

MR
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« Reply #35 on: 27 December 2012, 18:13:45 »
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I know, Allan did already comment on that title.
We all have our opinions and sometimes we get upset.
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« Reply #36 on: 27 December 2012, 19:22:46 »
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Sure, I got upset and still get upset... people are killing children... hello? anybody home? ? ?

When you don't get upset when reading/hearing this kind of 'news' you're sick!

Does this mean I wrote "f*** you" in a moment of 'weak state of mind'? NO. I knew exactly what I wrote.

And until now we had a very informative civil discussion, thx to all participants!

Sometimes I read stuff here at WaT and on other sources and it comes so clear to me that people have big problems with 'discussing' issues. Seems that in many occassions people fall into hate and discussions end. (and in some cases it doesn't end with ending a discussion).

So guys, really, enjoy the fact that here at WaT we have freedom of speech as long you don't get personal or write just for the sake of bashing.

What about the petition in the US to deport a CNN reporter? Now.... really.... isn't 'freedom of speech' also written down as a "right"? Or is the "right to carry arms" more important?

http://www.wnd.com/2012/12/cnn-anchor-now-faces-double-deportation/

Isn't 'freedom of speech' a "right"? What about the countries those voters also condemn where there's no freedom of speech? Aren't they voting for the same? The loss of freedom of speech?
I find that voting so ridiculous and undemocratic.... I still need some prove that it's really happening.
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« Reply #37 on: 28 December 2012, 03:39:39 »
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Yes, freedom of speech is a right.

Petitions mean nothing. All 50 states petitioned to leave the US after Obama was reelected. Means nothing.

That's an example of a peaceful protest. They know he's not going to be expelled for saying what he thinks.

One of the things that concerns me about the US at the moment is how polarized the country is getting. There seems to be no middle ground. No place for compromise any more.

All I'm saying Koen, is your statement was inflammatory. That you could have said the exact same thing, without the rhetoric, and gotten your point across without possibly alienating some people at the same time.

Good Hunting.

MR
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« Reply #38 on: 28 December 2012, 13:44:58 »
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Steve,

There you caught the biggest problem of our modern society.
Last generations children are thought that they are always right, need to get (steal) as much money as they can get (which is never enough) and dont need to think about the needs of someone else, immorality rules.Most of them are spoiled to the bone and have no respect for authority whatsoever.
Rights are something only meant for them, duties expected from them are unknown.
Helping people is something ugly and will only be done if it makes you more money.

This is a huge problem and it will not be solved overday.
It causes more and more social problems, and more unrest more people will get killed because of it.
Electronics are the new morale, children get phones at age 6 allready, interhuman contacts are unknown to them. You can do everything with your phone.
Facebook is the number one source for spoiled, bored and angry kids to hurt others.
It let to children committing suicide and the first murder ( by knife) of a 15 year old girl because sdhe said something about another girl.
And it getting worse every day.
Its these children that go into schools and kill others, and they dont need an excuse either in most cases.

Somaybe its time for a third war, a really big one so we can start all over again.
Rebuilding not only our houses and transportation but moreover our social and moral community which is allready bankrupt.
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« Reply #39 on: 29 December 2012, 18:39:49 »
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Here is how most people feel about what happened in Connecticut.

I didn't write this but it seems to be the pervasive feeling in the country at the moment.

I've been giving the "gun ban law" some thought, and here it is: this person steals guns, (WHICH IS AGAINST THE LAW), shoots and kills his own mother (WHICH IS AGAINST THE LAW), transports these guns loaded (WHICH IS AGAINST THE LAW), brings guns onto school property (WHICH IS AGAINST THE LAW), breaks into the school (WHICH IS AGAINST THE LAW), discharges the weapons within city limits (WHICH IS AGAINST THE LAW), murders 26 people (WHICH IS AGAINST THE LAW), and commits suicide (WHICH IS AGAINST THE LAW).

And there are people in this country that somehow think passing another ANOTHER LAW banning guns would protect us from someone like this. If you haven't noticed, people like this are not concerned about breaking laws - they only care about fulfilling their own twisted agenda. The only people that a gun ban law would impact are the LAW ABIDING CITIZENS, which will only serve to cripple the ability to protect ourselves.

Good Hunting.

MR
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