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Author Topic: the right to carry arms? f*** you!  (Read 14168 times)
Koen
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« on: 14 December 2012, 19:25:37 »
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Multiple Fatalities Reported in Shooting at Connecticut Elementary School

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school.html

and again some tough guys wil say the right to carry arms ensure a safer community.... f*** you guys.... how many shooting have there been in the US in the last 20 years?

Newtown, Connecticut School Shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary: Parent Interview
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« Reply #1 on: 14 December 2012, 20:09:42 »
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How bad this may be, if you do a search on this item here at WaT you will find a report I have posted somewhere in another topic.

A group of lawyers in the US investigated the relation between firearms, crimes and law per state for the anti-firearm lobby.
They made a shocking discovery.
In states where tough laws were enforced on buying and selling firarms the number of crimes with deadly use of firearms was the highest, states with a liberal approach to guns saw much less crime with use of deadly force.
It doesnt matter what law you have.
If people want to get a gun they buy it somewhere, a law doesnt stop people from buying a firearm.

I saw a remark from somebody after the Columbine shooting that made me thinking....
He said: "if you live in a country with more weapons than people how come none of those targeted people returned fire?"
So others will say, hey if any of those victims had a gun he could have defended him or the others.
Tests have been done with students carrying a gun.
In most tests they did not react or reacted to late because of shock and stress or simply fear.
And there we are back at your remark.......

Here we have tough laws for firearms, did they prevent the 100's of murdered people past year and the tragic shooting in the mall?
The only solution may be to have manufacturers sell guns to law enforcement only but that is impossible I am afraid.




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« Reply #2 on: 14 December 2012, 20:15:38 »
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Well, it is now at least 27 kids around 7-8 yrs killed, and three "patients in hospital", one gunman dead and the hunt on for a 2nd.

Fact is that in Spain, England, the Netherlands, Germany, etc. such things do not happen with such a frequency (extremely rarely if at all, I rmember two such incidents in Europe, one in Germany the other in Switzerland where everybody has a gun), and that is probably due to the strict gun control in Europe.

FWIW,

Rattler
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« Reply #3 on: 14 December 2012, 20:31:47 »
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Henk,

I do know that these things happen in every country around the world but how many times it happens is the question! (I need no search button and I've been following/reading news around the globe for years now)

And how people react is another thing, when certain shootings happened here in Belgium (nothing compared to the ones in the US) all parties realised we needed to change things.

And 100% doesn't exist. No law will stop the killing but saying that we don't need laws?Huh?Huh? And statements as: "no gun kills, only people who fire the guns kill" is another prove of stupidity and lack of 'balls'.
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« Reply #4 on: 14 December 2012, 21:52:52 »
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Well, in a way guns dont kill people but the people who hold the gun and pull the trigger.
Valid remark.
The real problem lies in the fact that people can buy guns to use.
Why, because the gun manufacturers simply make to many and because we have a problem with our society.
Thousands of people use guns what they are for, to hunt and for pleasure in private clubs shooting at paper targets, are we going to punish them because 1 guy cant handle his problems in a normal way?
Here, we had what is named the post modern pacifistic trend. In short it means children grew up without any form of discipline or authority for the past 20 years.
Authority, and discipline were seen as dangerous.... conscription for the army was abandoned. Social security was cut in its funding, many youthclubs were closed, less police in the streets.
Now we have created several generations of teenagers who dont give a damn about any form of authority, they do what they want because the law gives them the "right" to do what they want.Often they forget that they also have obligations to the community.
A new breed of people who are tought that they are the only ones who are important, selfish, greedy and lacking any social skills, the more they have the better.
Compare that with a fragmented society where social controll is not existing anymore, thats causing problems together with a lack of moral values.
Lack of moral education and education in general.
Its my opinion that more crimes will happen in the near future by kids younger and younger and far more bloodier.
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« Reply #5 on: 14 December 2012, 22:59:45 »
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because 1 guy cant handle his problems in a normal way?

it's NOT 1 guy... it's 1 guy EVERY time this shit happens...

guns should be limited to professional and trained users, police forces and military.

no guns should be allowed as hobby in any kind of way neither should military personnel have guns at home

there's no 'right' in the right to carry arms, there's only the right to live
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« Reply #6 on: 15 December 2012, 00:28:20 »
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Both of you are right, but from my POV dont pull the right conclusions:

Yes, its people who pull the trigger. That is not the point:

People kill people, people walk around with a grudge, people go crazy, all this might end in a shortcut and lead you to get agressive and kill. But! If you got a baseball club or a knife you will do great harm (that ends in the news paper), people will be duly shocked, though: With an M16 I clean a whole village square crammed with people if needed, in an instant. THAT is the difference. Gun control forces those dumbasses to resort to baseball bats or knives.

Now, you might say, but people can get guns here in Europe anyway (true, I have two small caliber rifles, and if I go to Son Banya tomorrow with 500 Euros will carry a .38 pistol or revolver when coming out). Again, this is not the point:

People with military training, or police training, or almost whatever training on arms (we are talking bodyguards, all Swiss males, Mafia killers, (European) armed robbers etc.) will NEVER make headlines for a news paper be it for going on a killing spree derived from depression or also as far as accidents are related, they treat guns from a "professional" POV, they are "tools" for specific labours.

In consequence we need two things: Tough gun control (let the mafia killers buy them all they want, they wont harm the general public) and profound gun education. Point one means no guns at home, point two means: Yes, professional gun training, for everybody who wants to own one.

An Arms Race in society will never lead to good port.

Ah, and authority or discipline attitude in a society is a different theme which I see to have no connection to the question of gun control.

Thats my take,

FWIW, Rattler

Well, in a way guns dont kill people but the people who hold the gun and pull the trigger.
Valid remark.
The real problem lies in the fact that people can buy guns to use.
Why, because the gun manufacturers simply make to many and because we have a problem with our society.
Thousands of people use guns what they are for, to hunt and for pleasure in private clubs shooting at paper targets, are we going to punish them because 1 guy cant handle his problems in a normal way?
Here, we had what is named the post modern pacifistic trend. In short it means children grew up without any form of discipline or authority for the past 20 years.
Authority, and discipline were seen as dangerous.... conscription for the army was abandoned. Social security was cut in its funding, many youthclubs were closed, less police in the streets.
Now we have created several generations of teenagers who dont give a damn about any form of authority, they do what they want because the law gives them the "right" to do what they want.Often they forget that they also have obligations to the community.
A new breed of people who are tought that they are the only ones who are important, selfish, greedy and lacking any social skills, the more they have the better.
Compare that with a fragmented society where social controll is not existing anymore, thats causing problems together with a lack of moral values.
Lack of moral education and education in general.
Its my opinion that more crimes will happen in the near future by kids younger and younger and far more bloodier.

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« Reply #7 on: 15 December 2012, 11:34:09 »
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Nicely said Matt.
However two days ago in China a man stabbed 22 children with a knive......If you close a door to a class you can kill those children with a knive in a few minutes too.
Same happened in Belgium btw.
Gun control is not the option, it simply doesnt work. If people cant get a gun they pick up something else.
Banning crime and teaching people not to kill eachother are better in my point of view.
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« Reply #8 on: 15 December 2012, 12:00:45 »
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Stoffel,

gun control *does* work:

We had in summer the case here in Mallorca that a perturbed Hitler and Columbine Massacre fan had planned to commit a massacre in the University of Balearic Islands (UIB) here in Palma at Hitlers birthday 20th of April, 2013.

The story on how they caught him is very long and has all the twists for a Hollywood movie (someone in Japan read the blog of the guy and tried to communicate this to the Majorcan Police - who did neither speak Japanese nor English - and though all the protagonists were not aware of it - it worked, the information was processed and with FBI and CNI they started following up the guy, finally after 5 month of investgation they caught him for bying lot of material to produce explosives over internet).

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=es&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=es&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fultimahora.es%2Fmenorca%2Fnoticia%2Fsucesos%2Fultimas%2Fpolicia-nacional-detiene-imitador-masacre-columbine-dispuesto-sembrar-bombas-uib.html&act=url

The interesting part of the story is that (he wanted to copy the Columbine Shootings initially):

Quote
...During these months of investigation, JM tried repeatedly illegally acquire several weapons, according to information provided by the Police Department...



He did it the way I would have done (and described it yesterday), by going to "Son Banya" with 3.000 Euros and trying to aquire steel, of course without stating his intent. Did not work, he got nothing from the gypsies, and what is more, news spread through the illegal canals that he was not to be sold a gun. Point is, if *I* went I *would* get a gun.

So finally, the guy had to resort to fabricating his own explosives in Oklahoma style with fertilizer but got followed up in his Internet bying spree and detained when he recived the material.

This is what I call gun control, and it shows it *does* work: By forcing a potential buyer into illegal canals, you pass the problem to the streetwise sellers, they do the best psychologic profiling and react accordingly (at least in Europe), as they do *not* want to see their business affected by raids or whatsoever.

Gun control works.

Actually, yoou yourself were giving the hint: The China guy stabbed 22 kids in school, but *did not kill one*.

FWIW,

Rattler
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« Reply #9 on: 15 December 2012, 19:22:16 »
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Than please tell me.
Of most crimes committed here in Holland almost none were committed with legally registered weapons, accept the one in Alphen.
Most murders with firearms are being committed by criminals who gives a rats ass about a law.

In fact if I violate the law I risk 1 year in prison, if I get caught with an illegal weapon ( ie like a Minimi) I face 6 months......
I think its a social problem, sane people do not kill their neighbours, family or others.
I dont think  a law would stop them.
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« Reply #10 on: 15 December 2012, 20:05:03 »
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Than please tell me.
Of most crimes committed here in Holland almost none were committed with legally registered weapons, accept the one in Alphen.
Most murders with firearms are being committed by criminals who gives a rats ass about a law.

In fact if I violate the law I risk 1 year in prison, if I get caught with an illegal weapon ( ie like a Minimi) I face 6 months......
I think its a social problem, sane people do not kill their neighbours, family or others.
I dont think  a law would stop them.

all these comments are not convincing me that we shouldn't try to stop the sale of arms, small or big, automatic or not

a weapon is build to kill
a knife/hammer/axe isn't (except the ones we know who were)

the logical step with things that are build to kill is:
to let them only be used by professionals in safe conditions (or war etc)
to sell them only to police and army
not to sell them to people for hobby purposes

when people do not have a gun in the house they can't use it
you can tell me that "if they want a gun they'll find one" but thinking about using a gun and going out to buy one is a big step.

when I get furious on Karine and want to shoot her I have 2 options:
1.I take the gun in the kitchen and shoot her, this takes a couple of minutes
2.I search on the net where I can buy one, hide my internet search, lie to her every day, go on a ride to get the gun, return and then shoot Karine. Any idea how much time and effort this will take? By then my anger on Karine will probably be gone

Yesterday some 10km's from here a man got pissed on his son and wanted to shoot him but in the action shot his wife instead and killed her. Now I dare you to tell me the outcome when he didn't had a gun.

Ofcourse you'll tell me that him owning a gun was illegal so the law doesn't work. Sry bulls****! The harder you make it to own a gun the less people will own one.
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« Reply #11 on: 15 December 2012, 23:13:38 »
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The harder you make it to own a gun the less people will own one.


Ok, you make it very hard like in my country.
Let me explain you.
If I want to buy a gun here I need to see a policeman for interviewing, everything will be checked.
Than when I get one I am subject to random visits.
My gun needs to be in a closed safe in a lockable room, same goes for the ammo.
I have to report a route to my shooting range and a reserve one in case there is a problem down the route I take.
If I violate one of these rules I face a 1 year prison sentence.
Off all the murders committed in my country few were done by guns, most of these were done by knifes, poison, tools and strangling, fire and suffication.
These were all  "normal" people prior to become a murderer.
Most registered users with guns are hunters, police and people who visit shooting clubs ( btw new rule forbids the last category to have a weapon at home)

Only criminals use guns for robberies, killings of other gangsters and so on.
They buy their guns on the black market, thats where the problem is.
They laugh for punishment, its only 6 months max.
A law doesnt stop people from buying a gun.
Just like a law doesnt stop people from getting speeding tickets.......

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« Reply #12 on: 16 December 2012, 10:35:23 »
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true, a law doesn't stop people from buying a gun but that doesn't mean you shouldn't make as many laws as possible to prevent

what makes me sick is the discussions in the US after each killing

some will say that they need armed guards at every school.... well, if you don't get the stupidity of such statements.....  hdbng

2 weeks ago I saw a TV report on the arms issue in Texas where guns are sold and exported immediately to Mexico where you can't count the killings anymore...

when they interview sellers they reply: I'm a businessman, I don't kill people, I only sell guns...

OR

there's a law that says we have the right to carry arms, true but, as also mentioned in the report, that's a law from a time there was no police or other kind of structured society...

all those people in the US supporting those stupid statements are also responsable for the killings, not only the shooter.

when you can go into a shop, buy semi-automatic weapons and go out shooting people there's is something wrong with the complete system

and not 1 politician has the balls to change this because they're afraid of loosing their job

what will they say to the family of the children and teachers? sorry? sorry for what? for not having the courage to do the necessary?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9746935/Teachers-sacrificed-themselves-to-save-their-pupils.html#

Quote
Authorities have identified principal Dawn Hochsprung, 47, school psychologist Mary Sherlach, 56, and 27-year-old Victoria Soto, a young first grade teacher, as three of the eight adults found dead at the Sandy Hook Elementary School on Friday.

A fourth teacher, Lauren Rousseau, 30, a substitute teacher who had been working at the school since October, was also reported to have been killed.

Twenty eight people died in the shooting spree, including 20 young children between the ages of five and ten. Six adults also died in the attack on the school.

It has been reported that Miss Soto sacrificed herself to save her students – throwing her body in front of the young children.

Some of the teachers took cover beneath tables when the murderer, Adam Lanza, opened fire inside the school in suburban Newtown, Connecticut – but the Mrs Hochsprung and Mrs Sherlach didn't hesitate, according to reports.

They ran into the hallway to confront the danger – and were murdered "execution-style" as a result.

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« Reply #13 on: 16 December 2012, 18:45:48 »
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Well, to be honoust I dont like people with guns either.
And I hope I can live in a society free of killings and weapons.

Unfortunately its not going to happen.
To many people earn money with this industry.
Politicians dont want to ban them. hdbng

I have no solution for it.
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« Reply #14 on: 18 December 2012, 19:52:56 »
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Obama says: the whole nation supports you and is praying for you
Obama says: we need to review the arms law
the nation reacts: +20% sales in arms

now who's sick?
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« Reply #15 on: 19 December 2012, 10:24:05 »
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-snip-
Obama says: we need to review the arms law
the nation reacts...


Yep, they now have all kinds of school body armour out:

Bulletproof Backpacks:



Quote
"Basically, there's three models," says Derek Williams. "A SwissGear that's made for teens, and we've got an Avengers and a Disney Princess backpack for little kids."

Williams is the president of Amendment II, a Salt Lake City-based company that manufactures lightweight body armor for law enforcement and military use. But lately they've moved into a different market: body armor for kids. Six months ago, Amendment II introduced a new line of backpacks, built with the company's signature carbon nanotube armor, designed to keep kids safe in the event of school shootings. Since Friday's massacre at a Newtown, Connecticut, elementary school, sales have gone through the roof. "I can't go into exact sales numbers, but basically we tripled our sales volume of backpacks that we typically do in a month—in one week," Williams says.

With thoughts of defenseless children seared into the national consciousness, the company doesn't plan on letting the crisis go to waste. "We want to be sensitive to how we do that, but we are gonna try to get the word out that this product does exist that there are ways to at least provide our children with some protection," Williams says.




Tactical vests and body armour for kids are mulled over whether to become obligatory in US schools:



You tell me about sick, man...  Huh?

The US is more and more becoming a territory I not only would not want to live in, but I more and more have come to not even want to visit anymore.

Rattler
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« Reply #16 on: 19 December 2012, 10:58:54 »
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Now I miss the head protection like kevlar helmet and bullet proof goggles??
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« Reply #17 on: 19 December 2012, 18:09:39 »
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Just like most Americans need more information on the reality of living in Europe, most Europeans need more insight to what life in the US is like.

The US didn't have a problem (regarding mass murder by private citizens) for the first 185 years of our Republic.  Something else has changed in this society besides an increase in gun ownership/use.  Gun violence and most crime are down in the US in the past 30 years.  Look up the biggest mass murders in the US and they're not done with guns. (box cutters/planes, dynamite, fertilizer) Look up gun murder with the most victims and you'll find it 's not in the US.

When your emotions have cooled down ["f*** you guys"? I know the first response to such an act of evil is going to be emotional but you know there are those who now claim it's open season on shooting NRA members and those who defend them so Koen may be engaging in "hate speech"  Geschokt], I'd like to engage in a discussion about what laws designed to limit these mass murders might work in the US because I think some here have more knowledge about the specifics of certain fire-arms capabilities (magazine capacity, types of ammunition, etc.) 
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« Reply #18 on: 19 December 2012, 19:21:04 »
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my writings have nothing to do with 'hate', you know me for a long time now, maybe even the longest off all members here...

what I write are my thoughts on how I see people react in the US on weapons, shootings and dead ones

I didn't write about mass killings, I comment on the school shootings

I don't understand how people react by buying guns 1 day after a lunatic shot a bunch of children with a gun...

I don't understand how people take their children to a shooting range on sunday and/or buy them weapons as a present...

I don't understand that some dudes are now making an effort to sell armed backpacks... just for the dollars....

I didn't talk about killing NRA members, I never promote killing, harming or whatever negative action...


I just don't get that in 2012 people refer to laws from 200 years ago
I just don't get that people buy guns as a solution because someone else with a gun killed someone
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« Reply #19 on: 19 December 2012, 20:39:52 »
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Understood, Koen! I know your stance on hatred and violence.  But understand the reaction of some in light of what's happened--it's more violence against some for their beliefs and 'f*** you' is one of their responses.

I don't understand the armored back-packs either.  But I never heard of them nor saw anything about them until the ad was shown here by a European.  I honestly doubt that this business will succeed.  (I also doubt that this product was a result of last weeks' shooting.)  I guarantee that 99+% of Americans see it as in bad taste. 

Regarding a 200 year old document, I'm proud that we've had only one republic in 236 years.  There is a way to amend our Constitution and I have no problem with attempting--let alone achieving--change via this method.  (it's been done nearly 30 times.)  However, the only amendment which was subsequently removed by another amendment was an amendment banning a product (alcohol.)  Franklin Roosevelt also outlawed the possession of gold by private citizens.  This was later un-done, too.  It also didn't work (people held on to some of their gold).  

From an American perspective (my perspective, but also many more although of course another may chime in here that they're also an American and do want a ban) a ban won't work.  Think of all the things that are already illegal and the amount of possession/use/action that is still done with these items/ideas.  The American 'mind-set', if you will, and theory of our government has been to emphasize individual liberty as opposed to central government power.  Our history has shown that when individual liberty is coupled with responsible citizenry (morally and intellectually), freedom is better than limits imposed by government.  People are happier, economic times are better, more innovation takes place, etc. I'm not talking of material happiness nor material innovation alone, either--a sense of individual liberty allows creativity to flourish in all spheres of human endeavor.  I'm of the opinion that all of human history shows this to be true.

The murderer in CT attempted to get a gun through legal channels and was legally denied so he ended up stealing a legal firearm stored illegally.  Most of the talk in the US this week has focused on mental illness not gun control.  As I stated before, guns are less prevalent today than in our past; all crime is down and trending down; guns were never an issue in our country before so something else has changed.  School children have 'lock down' drills once/month in my kids' school.  We also have fire drills and earthquake drills (in Seattle, earthquake drills are necessary!.)  All US schools are 'gun free zones', 'drug free zones', too (there are signs stating so)

I would urge my European friends to read the wikipedia article on 'open carry' States in the US.  Look up homicide rates in the US vs. Europe--2 Baltic countries have a higher murder rate than the US as does the capital of Luxembourg; Amsterdam approaches ours. Look up the states with the most restrictive gun laws and then the list of cities/States with the highest murder and crime rates.  The same locations will be at the top of both lists.    

In the US, there are two types of "gun cultures"--one with kids at shooting ranges on Sundays, safety classes, etc.--and one with gang members doing 90+% of US gun deaths, glamorizing guns/drugs/degradation of women/etc.  One gun culture promotes liberty and crime prevention and one gun culture promotes all of the bad things you're seeing in the news you get about life in the US.

Here's my list of things I don't understand:
I don't understand how Europeans can use alcohol so freely and share it with their children. (this is actually a very good analogy to US views on guns, our 2 gun cultures)
I don't understand how Europeans (and Asians and Africans) can allow oppressive governments to come to power and engage in genocide and wars which have killed 100s of millions in the last 100 years. (it's why we have our 2nd Amendment)
I don't understand why Europeans smoke so much.
You all seem to have reached some sort of accommodation with it and aren't bothered so I won't worry to much about it.
I don't understand how Americans can abort 50 million baby humans in the past 40 years, spend $billions on "entertainment" which glorifies moral bankruptcy and death, or why a near majority of registered voters never vote.
All of the above on my list cause more death (well, except voter apathy) than anything on your list.  It happens in a 'frog in warming water' way though--it's not flashy and sudden so we ignore it, we don't jump out of the boiling water.
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