20 August 2017, 04:02:35 *

Login with username, password and session length
Welcome to War and Tactics!    War and Tactics Forum has been heavily streamlined to help you find your place of interest faster. Hope you like it!
   
  Home   Forum   Help ! Forum Rules ! Search Calendar Donations Login Register Chat  
Pages:  1 [2]   Go Down
  Print  
Share this topic on Del.icio.usShare this topic on DiggShare this topic on FacebookShare this topic on GoogleShare this topic on MySpaceShare this topic on RedditShare this topic on StumbleUponShare this topic on TechnoratiShare this topic on TwitterShare this topic on Yahoo
Author Topic: Palestine rejoices after recognition  (Read 6104 times)
MontyB
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1005




View Profile
« Reply #20 on: 3 December 2012, 01:39:43 »
ReplyReply

Quote
makes me wonder whether we shouldn't have put up with Hitler for another couple of years and saved ourselves all these problems.

don't agree with this statement either, killing and the logical wars don't end anything neither are a solution of what so ever, they are signs of weakness

but yes, mankind IS weak cause we seem only capable to start problems but never end/prevent them


I am not sure I care anymore, it is by now abundantly clear to anyone with an IQ above 5 that Israel will never accept a Palestinian state in any form greater than a modern equivalent of the Warsaw ghetto and all we do is sit here listening to a group who cant make peace because they refuse to see the other side as anything more than animals so at some point I think we have to decide whether we really should be backing a side that really is the modern day version of the SS.

I grew up in a world that remembered the holocaust and how the plucky little Israel struggled to come into existence only to discover that the only thing Israel learnt from the holocaust was how to perpetrate it onto another race in such a way that they could keep it just under the radar of what America could tolerate and still pay for.

At some point the west has to stop accepting guilt for something it wasn't party to, grow a moral nutsack and reign in Israel before some other crazy bastards turn it into a glowing hole in the ground.
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
stoffel
WaT supporter
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Netherlands

Location: Eemnes The Netherlands
Posts: 1824


View Profile WWW
« Reply #21 on: 3 December 2012, 10:25:16 »
ReplyReply

Monty,

I got several phone calls from colleagues, all members of the police (one is an officer on the court itself)who told me that your last remark is punishable by Dutch law as antisemitism.
Please remove that phrase about Hitler from your topic.

(makes me wonder whether we shouldn't have put up with Hitler for another couple of years and saved ourselves all these problems.)
Logged

My topics are about my personal opinion, my thoughts and what I think. They do not reflect the official opinion of the ministry of defense of the Netherlands.
MontyB
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1005




View Profile
« Reply #22 on: 3 December 2012, 12:36:08 »
ReplyReply

Monty,

I got several phone calls from colleagues, all members of the police (one is an officer on the court itself)who told me that your last remark is punishable by Dutch law as antisemitism.
Please remove that phrase about Hitler from your topic.

(makes me wonder whether we shouldn't have put up with Hitler for another couple of years and saved ourselves all these problems.)


Better yet just have it deleted as it has already been quoted in other posts and close my account with it as I see no point in being part of a forum that panders to one persons whims.
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2268




View Profile WWW
« Reply #23 on: 3 December 2012, 13:40:27 »
ReplyReply

It is clear that Stoffel cannot be rational about the problem, so it is useless to even try and discuss with him: Whatever you say he will find an answer why Israel is right anyway, period.

When Ben Gurion blew up Hotels it was legitimate to create the State of Israel, when a Palestinian blows up himself against the occupying forces its terror. For me both is terror, but for Stoffel not.

And if nothing works against arguments, like in Germany, a stance against Israel gets branded antisemite, the big hammer that is expected to shut up any argument. Quite obviously this is as absurd as to say anybody critizising the US is a Satanist, or arguing against Al Quaeda is being anti-muslim but quite obviously it is not obvious to everybody.

For the record: Being totally opposed to Israels acts of state terrorism has nothing to do with being antisemitic, a war crime is a war crime whoever commits it and it has nothing to do with religion. For us anyway.

FWIW,

Rattler
Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
stoffel
WaT supporter
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Netherlands

Location: Eemnes The Netherlands
Posts: 1824


View Profile WWW
« Reply #24 on: 3 December 2012, 16:28:47 »
ReplyReply

Matt,

May I remind you.
My mother in law was born in a concentrationcamp, so yes I do know what I am talking about.
Its my people who face extermination if it is up to the Arabs and their supporters.
I will repeat the words of the IDF chief of staff: Never again the Jewish people will be defenseless.
And yes I cant speak about this topic with people who are close to being anti-semitic and I will not tolerate it.

If Monty wouldnt have used my name in the beginning to trigger a response ( one he therefore knew that would come) I wouldnt have reacted anyway.

Logged

My topics are about my personal opinion, my thoughts and what I think. They do not reflect the official opinion of the ministry of defense of the Netherlands.
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #25 on: 3 December 2012, 23:12:23 »
ReplyReply

WaT is not and has never been a police state and members who write down their opinion get my respect even when I do NOT agree with their statements.

I have more respect for people who take the time, the effort and the stress to participate than for those who read but only react via via.

What I do object to are people who use the words neonazi, antisemite, pro-Hamas and other words to accuse other members.

What I don't see in this discussion are answers to correct questions. People have tens, hundreds of words and sentences to accuse and insult but not 1 word to reply to a question.

Several times it comes down to the question 'why do you think that hate and war will solve the problem'. We never get a response but only (a) new statement(s).

I see it as a sign of stupidity that when someone reads my words and knows my thoughts they accuse me of all things I'm against.

There is no victory in war and so long people see war as a solution and weapons as a mean of dialogue they loose.
Logged
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2268




View Profile WWW
« Reply #26 on: 3 December 2012, 23:14:27 »
ReplyReply

Matt,

May I remind you.
My mother in law was born in a concentrationcamp, so yes I do know what I am talking about.
Its my people who face extermination if it is up to the Arabs and their supporters.

Thats what I meant when saying you cannot think rationally about it, it is all emotions. Not saying this is bad, it is simply the way it is. Please allow us to treat you as an emotional but not rational commenter henceforward.

I will repeat the words of the IDF chief of staff: Never again the Jewish people will be defenseless.

So, it is a cause of religion for you after all? Then, I will leave you - as all the islamists - behind as being religiously blinded and hence without serious (for me) reason. Have you ever given concern to how bad religion has served us as humans in interconnection? Have you?

And yes I cant speak about this topic with people who are close to being anti-semitic and I will not tolerate it.

Well, if I understand the forum and the world right, you will have to put up to it. You are not GOD, and there are things - you actually are in arms for - that might not fit your liking (I as communist worked hard to allow everybody free speech against the Russian ideas: I elected to give everybody, incl. the Nazis, their say and I hate their ideas, but the idea of being *free* is so much greater...!).

Anti-semitism, you dont "tolerate" it. But you ask for Muslims to tolerate all the swaths at them? Reality check, please?

Religion fouls up your thinking (and mine, so: Forget Religion!), and you are raw meat to the media butchers out there. Thats step one, there are more, but it all comes down to "Think For Yourself!" and that usually works best putting on the shoes of the people you are facing or that are around you.

I reiterate my challenge, come with me to Gaza (after such long time - I was there last in 89 - I will need 6 month least preparation, but *for you* I would strive to make it a go) and then I want to hear you speak again. *I* have been there, you not. I claim to have better insight, hence.

*My* insight was that the media in the US and Germany (and Holland, dont know?) have been playing along a pre-written scheme by the Israelis, once you are there you see who is right and who is wrong, there is no mistaking, and it is actually dead simple just looking at it, no great head revolution needed. Find yourself under fire when doing nothing there and you will get a grip of reality, not what the media tell you or what they form you to believe.

For the record, I am the first to acknowledge and punish racist or anti-religious behaviour here, but you have no say in what you are going to tolerate or not (as a member), except for your right of *personal* response, which *I* went to enlist to grant it, again, and proudly, just for the record.

What have you enlisted for, to serve Israel? As a Dutch? Would this mean I would have to defend the Vatican as a Catholic instead of my German home nation?

At least I have been going out serving an idea (Human Rights, I was asking my subordinates and now am still asking my apprentecis: "What World Do You Want To Live In? Act it, accordingly!") and not a religious or national aspect (whether this was right or wrong history will tell). This was an US idea, of course, and I now realize they did not mean it the way I understood it then, but this does not make it bad or take one grain to have gone for it. I will keep on trying, as I like the idea of this world imagined.

For me, it was (and still is 30 yrs later) clear: To serve freedom of thought, speech and openminded interaction, personal responsibility and a feel of Right and Wrong. Never wanted to become a Soviet Union slave though being a communist (at those times). Nor will I now become an Israel slave to serve their perverted form of running a country (oh, Syria, well, almost forgot... But is it not the same? Where is your outcry on terrorism? Being anti-Syrian is anti-Shii? Or what? Shiis are bad, Sunnies are good? Or what? So much for being accused of being antisemite...).

If Monty wouldnt have used my name in the beginning to trigger a response ( one he therefore knew that would come) I wouldnt have reacted anyway..

If thats your take, why did you do it? Got carried away? Happens to all of us, sometimes, but: Then it would seem an apology would be the sincere way to go (totally from my POV, of course). I did not react to your provocative remark of my sharing my knowledge of German inclinations (which I presume to know better than you) though I could have, and ferociously, I just let it be. Why? Because if we are facing "beliefs" nothing will work out discussing, "beliefs" are just out of it (see Islamists, Jews, Catholics, etc.). No reason to get personal (in a discussion or debate), or did you like the Crusades?

Get a life, Stoffel, you are such a great guy, start thinking out of the box and off from what your media tell you, there are real people out there like you and me, and we are getting spoonged. Come to the people (you are one of them), stay off of politicians mouth work - right or left are equal in this - and you just might make it to another level before you die. At least thats what I hope to achieve for myself...

FWIW,

Kindest regards,

Rattler
Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
stoffel
WaT supporter
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Netherlands

Location: Eemnes The Netherlands
Posts: 1824


View Profile WWW
« Reply #27 on: 4 December 2012, 15:46:57 »
ReplyReply

Too bad matt,

Media here isnt pro Israel.
Nobody mentiones daily attacks on israel they do report Palestinians get hurt after Israel hits back.
Pro Palestine demonstrations get media coverage.......

Latest exchange of fire was set in motion by the Islamic Jihad in order to weaken Hamas, and to get funding from Egypt nobody reacted on that news.
The prove for it is the Fatwa spoken out by a high ranking muslim leader that no one is allowed to violate the seize fire because it would endanger the relations with Egypt ( read flow of money)
Oh yes Israel had to react and shot back........and the world falls over it and why?
Because of games played by Palestinian terrorists another kind of powerstruggle between them.
Political games.

You never heard or really read what I said.
Palestinian civilians are being held hostage by terrorists, I bat that when they got rid of Hamas.Jihad and so on their life can be normal.
I have a personal opinion, everybody here knows that. Dont ask for it if you dont like what you are going to hear.

You talked about Ben Gurion, allthough there was a difference I dont tolerate the use of (deadly) violence by terrorists, you also know that.
You also know that if I have to guard a mosk against Jewish demonstrators I will be the first to shoot when they would become  violent.
The jewish people fought for freedom and got it, Israel is now a democracy the only one in the middle east, where everybody can live and work even Palestinians (they cant in their arab brothers countries where they are locked up in camps).
Hamas and Jihad have no real interest in a Palestinian state nor freedom for their citizens they are not fighting to build a state with freedom for the rest of the people like Ben Gurion did.Look what happened in Egypt...do we have a democracy after the uprising, no. In fact like some military obeservers warned for happened, Egypt turned into an even worse dictator lead country than under Mubarrak.
The Palestinians people in Gaza are being terrorized and have no freedom at all, and worst of all  the ordinary citizens are the ones who get hurt because of the games the terrorists play.
And please tell me how can you have peace with a religion that sees all other people as enemies? With factions who only seek for the destruction of an entire country and its people backed up by a religion which claims the same?
I support the Jewish people and I will allways do, why because I owe that to my mother in law and all others who were killed in the camps as well as to several good friends who died in Lebanon and Israeli friends who died.
That doesnt mean I will kill every muslim in the world, but as long as they claim they will kill us I will be ready for them. And that also doesnt mean I hate all Germans because they started ww 2 and killed so many people.
You also know ( I told you) that I am not very proud of my own countries heretage like slavery and the killings of many people in the east.
Tell me what do you think will happen when Israel is destroyed?
The Arab neighbours will steal all its infrastructure and knowledge and leave the rest to the Palestinians,  destroyed cities and a desolate stretch of land just as the land the arab farmers sold to the state of Israel after the second world war.
Within a year they will start killing eachother because they dont know anything else.

And also tell me what happened to Arafat and Fatah after the succesfull talks with Israel, which lead to closer cooperation and a huge economical growth for the Palestinian areas....
They were ousted from power by Hamas and now Hamas is being forced to surrender to the Jihad.
The Palestinian areas are bleeding dead, all money and infrastructure is being use against Israel in a war the Palestinians people (and the Israeli people either) doesnt want.
So there we are... back to what I started this reply with....nothing changes...really.

A useless war that neither side can win , that  uses resourches that can be used for other things and that kills to many people.
I have no soltution to end the war and to break through the circle, you, Koen and Monty neither only the politicians (who started this)can end this.
As long as there is nobody who does I will stay with my opinion and I will support the Jewish people. There is no right or wrong, only with or against.........


Logged

My topics are about my personal opinion, my thoughts and what I think. They do not reflect the official opinion of the ministry of defense of the Netherlands.
Pages:  1 [2]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Unique Hits: 17803872 | Sitemap
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!


Google visited last this page 7 March 2017, 05:57:54