NCO Club: Off Topic Discussions => The Aisles: Non-military News and Snippets => Topic started by: MontyB on 30 November 2012, 06:36:05



Title: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: MontyB on 30 November 2012, 06:36:05
Palestine rejoices after recognition
2:06 PM Friday Nov 30, 2012

Palestinians have partied well into the night after the UN General Assembly voted overwhelmingly to recognise Palestine as a non-member state.

The 193-member assembly voted 138-9 with 41 abstentions for the resolution which enables the Palestinians to join UN agencies and sign international treaties.

A Palestinian flag was quickly unfurled on the floor of the General Assembly, behind the Palestinian delegation.

Israel and the United States were joined by Canada, the Czech Republic, Panama, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru and Palau in opposing the vote, with US United Nations ambassador Susan Rice saying Palestinians "will wake up to find little has changed".

"Today's unfortunate and counterproductive resolution places further obstacles in the path of peace," Rice said.

The US urged Israel and the Palestinian Authorities to return to direct talks without preconditions.

The vote, however, was greeted with celebration in the Palestinian Territories.

In the West Bank city of Ramallah, hundreds crowded into the main square waved Palestinian flags and chanted "God is great".

Aucklander Frank Ritchie, education and advocacy manager for TEAR Fund, was at The Wall (dubbed the "Security Fence" by the Israelis) near Bethlehem on the West Bank at the time of the vote.

Read More... (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10850963)


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: MontyB on 30 November 2012, 06:44:52
I guess I should add my opinion to this... and here it is...
 :D

I realise this will be met with a counter response from Stoffel but I am pleased for the Palestinians it is small step in the right direction, the recognition of the Palestinian right to self determination now gives them something to work with and puts them on an equal footing with Israel.

It always amuses me when the USA and Israel talk of this as counter productive to the peace process yet none of them seem to be able to explain just how it is counter productive, in my opinion the only thing this decision can claim to be is counter productive to is the status quo and the only ones winning that scenario are Israel.


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: stoffel on 30 November 2012, 12:55:39
Read the article I wrote a few days ago.
The Palestinian people are being held hostage by a few extremist groups.
Once they throw them from power they can form a state and have peace with Israel.
If you have been to Israel you know that the reports from the media arent right.

There is one place where Palestinians can live in relative freedom, have work and there children can go to school..........in Israel.
Look at their Arab brothers in the neighboring countries, where do you think they stay? ......in (prison)camps without any rights nor work.
As long as terrorists are a partner for peacetalks  whom clearly state they want to destroy Israel, (and be sure they kill you as well cause you are a westerner and a non believer) there will be no peace unless there is a Palestinian uprising against these groups.

This is a black day, a decision which will lead to more bloodspilling.


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: Koen on 30 November 2012, 19:17:53
I see this step as a logical one, how can you talk about a future with another "country" when that other "country" isn't a "country"

I don't see a solution anymore, nobody's making sense, I see so much bullshit in those ridiculous speeches on TV.... there is not 1 politician neither in the US or Israel who talks the truth, talks about peace...

They only see devils on the other side of the 'wall'.... yep, that physical wall... give me a name of a politician and try to convince that he/she wants peace! I dare you!

edit: just saw Clinton: the resolution is an obstruction on the path to peace.... f*** you.... what path? WHAT PATH?.....


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: stoffel on 30 November 2012, 19:40:02
Koen,


Example......
You have a fight with your neighbour, he wants to kill you and your family and burn your house.
The police says, calm down Koen, its not so bad go talk with him.

Amen.


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: Koen on 30 November 2012, 19:50:48
Koen,


Example......
You have a fight with your neighbour, he wants to kill you and your family and burn your house.
The police says, calm down Koen, its not so bad go talk with him.

Amen.

well, using your example I feel both a Palestine AND Israeli


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: stoffel on 30 November 2012, 20:08:13
Read my earlier post.

The ordinary man in the city wants just one thing just like the Israeli citizen. Peace and growing up a family.
Terrorists groups backed up by their so called Arab brothers are ruling the autonomious regions.
They can never be a partner in whatever talks, just keepin mind they not only see Israel as an enemy but als us, and off course you ,Monty and rattler as well.
Why, we live in a free country, democratic.
Like most others Arabs are used to dictators and harsh rulers, most of them dont know what democracy is.

The only chance for peace and a Palestinian state is when the ordinary Palestinian citizens start an arabic spring and kick the terrorists out.



Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: Koen on 30 November 2012, 20:19:44
Read my earlier post.

The ordinary man in the city wants just one thing just like the Israeli citizen. Peace and growing up a family.
Terrorists groups backed up by their so called Arab brothers are ruling the autonomious regions.
They can never be a partner in whatever talks, just keepin mind they not only see Israel as an enemy but als us, and off course you ,Monty and rattler as well.
Why, we live in a free country, democratic.
Like most others Arabs are used to dictators and harsh rulers, most of them dont know what democracy is.

The only chance for peace and a Palestinian state is when the ordinary Palestinian citizens start an arabic spring and kick the terrorists out.

about democracy, I wonder how many declarations and actions are backed-up by the Israeli people such as the 'wall'.... how does a Jew compare the Israeli wall and the warsaw wall?

and from Palestine view...do they look at the Israel/US alliance as the Israeli look at the Hamas/Iran alliance?


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: stoffel on 30 November 2012, 21:19:23
As long as the Palestinian terrorists keep on firing rockets ( daily) into Israel the government can be assured of the support from the people.
The wall, the fence near Egypt and the recent policeactions were very succesfull, the passed 6 years saw no serious terrorist attacks, it proves to the ordinary Israeli in the street these actions are working.
Recent exchange of fire wasnt started by Hamas but by Islamic Jihad.
Only because Hamas is weakened by lacking of support from Iran ( they looked for money in Egypt)Jihad saw their chance to try to take over command in Gaza.
And latest reports show I am right because Hamas did got money from Egypt.
In fact ( something the regular media didnt report about......) a religious leader spoke out a Fatwa to every men who might violate the seize fire which is now in effect.
Simply saying Israel got involved in jet another dispute among the terrorist groups, where both Israe;li and Palestinian citizens are being held hostage by terrorists..
Lot of people say Israelis are bad because they violate rights and laws, I often wonder how you can violate laws of people who dont want to recognize and respect those same laws and the convention of Geneva as well.
If Israel wants it can level Gaza completely flat with artillery but so far it has not done that. ( in contrary to what Assad is doing in Syria)

The start of a solution will be the overthrow of the terrorists power by the Palestinian people themselves!


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: Koen on 30 November 2012, 21:33:22
covention of Geneva also forbids the use of weapons Israel used before....

and what do you call 'succesful'? the lack of terrorist attacks? ok, you got a point but does that mean that the wall is a 'solution'?

you want a solution? well, since the 'conflict' has been going on for decades maybe something new has to be tried.... FULL support from Israel and the US towards the people of Palestina? so, what do you think?

must be a tough job for Hamas and Fatah to convince their people that Israel is the evil when Israel support those people.....


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: MontyB on 1 December 2012, 00:05:13
Read the article I wrote a few days ago.
The Palestinian people are being held hostage by a few extremist groups.
Once they throw them from power they can form a state and have peace with Israel.
If you have been to Israel you know that the reports from the media arent right.

There is one place where Palestinians can live in relative freedom, have work and there children can go to school..........in Israel.
Look at their Arab brothers in the neighboring countries, where do you think they stay? ......in (prison)camps without any rights nor work.
As long as terrorists are a partner for peacetalks  whom clearly state they want to destroy Israel, (and be sure they kill you as well cause you are a westerner and a non believer) there will be no peace unless there is a Palestinian uprising against these groups.

This is a black day, a decision which will lead to more bloodspilling.


Well I will concede that I have not been to Israel but the funny thing is that the wife has in fact she lived there for 12 months primarily because her Grandmother felt she needed to get in touch with her Jewish side.

Here is the interesting thing she makes me look like a moderate when it comes to the Israel/Palestine thing in fact there are times when she makes Hamas look like moderates her opinion of the place and the people is unprintable, she went to Israel as a Jewish woman and came back a Catholic, work out the logistics of that.

I see this step as a logical one, how can you talk about a future with another "country" when that other "country" isn't a "country"

I don't see a solution anymore, nobody's making sense, I see so much bullshit in those ridiculous speeches on TV.... there is not 1 politician neither in the US or Israel who talks the truth, talks about peace...

They only see devils on the other side of the 'wall'.... yep, that physical wall... give me a name of a politician and try to convince that he/she wants peace! I dare you!

edit: just saw Clinton: the resolution is an obstruction on the path to peace.... f*** you.... what path? WHAT PATH?.....


I agree the only chance to end this thing is now to back a Palestinian state before Israel builds the Palestinians out of house and country, I read that Israel's response is to build 3000 more homes in East Jerusalem I am guessing this will be the beginning of yet another land grab to show just how much Israel wants peace.
As for Clinton well she can fuck off as well, I am amused at this bull s**t about how this decision is a road block to peace yet not one of them can actually say how it is a road block unless it is somehow thought giving Israel everything it wants is negotiating.

So Stoffel time to put up or shut up (figuratively of course) what are the negatives of recognising a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders with land swaps to sort out problems?


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: stoffel on 1 December 2012, 14:50:51
Just read what I said.
If the Palestinian people free themselves from the terrorists and Iran they can become a serious partner for Israel.
Rightnow the only place where Palestinians can work and go to the market is in Israel, they have no freedom in their Arab neighboring countries.
Israel lets a lot of goods through into Gaza, there isnt a thing called poverty there.

Koen,

If you know the Genevian convention you also know the first rule and the last rule.
First, if you take up arms ( civilian) as a non combattant organisation against a  country with legally armed forces than you commit a warcrime.
Punishable by death, besides you cannot hide behind those same laws as you dont acknowledge it.

The last rule is that every time a terrorist makes use of whatever situation to hide  behind civilians or civiliain infrastructure you are allowed to use lethal force to take him out. Even if he is in a school or hospital, it happens more often that the IDF doesnt fire where they really should have.
The blame can be put on the guy willingly endanger the place or the people.
And thats where we stand with the terrorist groups.
Few days ago Islamic Jihads top has been killed in a strike, where were they hiding? In a local newsagency.
Another guy from Hamas was blown out of his car, what was painted on the car?the word TV.
The last exchange of rockets where a very silly attempt by the Jihad to weaken Hamas and drive them away from power, not more not less.Political games with heavy weapons. Keep in mind Hamas threw Fatah ( Arafat cooperated with Israel on a big scale bringing money and goods into the region) out after Fatah won the elections a few years ago.
Who are the victims?
Israeli civilians living in fear every day, and the Palestinian civilians in Gaza who are being used as shields.
Solution, throw Hamas and Jihad out, start elections and get rid of their weapons ( a very understandable demand from Israel).
The UN can send a police force to train local policemen to ensure law and order.

But on the other hand, they will start killing eachother when there is no Israel so nothing will really change.
And politicians allways tell halve true or halve lie,thats the same in your and my country.......


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: Koen on 1 December 2012, 19:39:51
Quote
Solution, throw Hamas and Jihad out, start elections and get rid of their weapons ( a very understandable demand from Israel).

yes, an understandable demand but one we all know is impossible because as long as there is THE big enemy, the big killer groups like Hamas and others will always be active and have support.

you want Hamas out? well, make sure that they do not have a reason to exist.

Make it so that Gaza civilians have electricity, water, schools and food and Hamas will loose support rapidly. Yes, this will cost money, lots of money but better to spend money on that than on weapons. Gaza is a prison but a prison without any basic conditions. And what happens in a prison when you treat the prisoners badly? Revolt.

Defending Israelia attacks and bombs with the Geneva concention is maybe correct in political debates but not in my book. And my book is one that many neutral viewers read.

Another thing that must be done before we can even think about peace is stop using the words 'Jew' and 'Arab' in discussions. All I hear is Jew this and Jew that, stop using it in speeches and maybe the people who hear the speeches will stop seeing it as a 'Jews against the rest of the world' speech.

All is see and hear is aggression being answered by aggression, hate by hate, tough talk by more tough talk. And after decades of doing so nothing changed, so?

And now a UN action is answered by the building of more houses.... good reaction, this will certainly lead to peacetalks and a positive reaction from Gaza!


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: MontyB on 1 December 2012, 19:41:15
Just read what I said.
If the Palestinian people free themselves from the terrorists and Iran they can become a serious partner for Israel.
Rightnow the only place where Palestinians can work and go to the market is in Israel, they have no freedom in their Arab neighboring countries.
Israel lets a lot of goods through into Gaza, there isnt a thing called poverty there.



Why do Palestinians have to be a partner for Israel?
Why do other Arab countries have to accept Palestinians?

The realities of self determination are that people get to make their own decisions, they may lead to peace or war, they allow for people to say no this is my land I don't want you here.

I think you are deliberately avoiding answering the questions asked and failed understand what self determination means.
- Why is the UN recognising Palestine a road block to peace.
- How do you justify the continued expansion of settlements on occupied land (an illegal action even by American standards).

Unfortunately it is becoming very apparent that the only chance for peace in the area will be after a catastrophe in Israel and maybe Iran is just crazy enough to bring that into effect.



Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: stoffel on 2 December 2012, 13:10:32
My option would be better.
Israel has enough artillery to level every stone in Gaza, time they use it and get rid of that public opinion trauma.

Iran isnt going to try that, why do you think they werent happy with Hamas?
Because the recent events proved that Iron Dome works.
If it can intercept unguided small missiles it can intercept everything bigger like rockets :)

Why do you defend these guys anyway, Iran, Hamas, Jihad they all exist to destroy us westerners and other non believers.......
But I bat that the message will be clear if these guys rule here in our countries.
Only than its to late.................................


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: Koen on 2 December 2012, 13:22:31
My option would be better.
Israel has enough artillery to level every stone in Gaza, time they use it and get rid of that public opinion trauma.


Iran isnt going to try that, why do you think they werent happy with Hamas?
Because the recent events proved that Iron Dome works.
If it can intercept unguided small missiles it can intercept everything bigger like rockets :)

Why do you defend these guys anyway, Iran, Hamas, Jihad they all exist to destroy us westerners and other non believers.......
But I bat that the message will be clear if these guys rule here in our countries.
Only than its to late.................................

are you serious?

seems that it is impossible for you to understand what we are trying to discuss since you say that we are defending Iran, Hamas etc...

are you really saying we are defending Iran, Hamas etc???? really????


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: stoffel on 2 December 2012, 15:46:29
If you support the palestinians , you indirectly support terrorist groups.
Every form of support will be seen by the terrorists/extremists as a victory, besides they kill alll people who support them or kidnnap them ( ask all those people from AZG , Red cross and other agencies ) because they see them as servants from the enemy governments.
So you dont seem to understand what I am saying.

Most problems will be gone if the Palestinians throw the terrorists out and recognize Israelinstead of wanting to destroy the country, when they do they can live peacefully next to Israel and get help from the UN.
All armed groups gone and no interference anymore from Iran, there are only a few of those idiots that manage to keep all the people in hostage and they pay the price for th political /power games fought by the different groups.
Arafat and Fatah tried and were succesfull, you saw what happened to them.
Arafat was ( probably) killed and Fatah was driven out of Gaza by Hamas backed up by Iran and Syria.

And now we see another player in the field Egypt.
Egypt (where thousands of people live under poverty) is now supporting Hamas with money (!) Iran is not happy with that and is now supporting the Jihad.
Like I wrote in my article this will lead to more bloody attacks amung the Palestinians themselves, they never learn.
They dont understand what democracy is about and they probably never will, every time a dictator steps down a new one steps forward.
We dont seem to uderstand that here ...............




Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: Koen on 2 December 2012, 17:22:13
I see that there's no point in trying to discuss this in a neutral, objective way

you don't reply/react to what we write or ask and when you furthermore accuse me of supporting terrorist groups I have to end the discussion from my side

it's a shame tough since the complete issue needs discussions to end it but when we can't seem to do so why should we expect this from those on the frontline


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: MontyB on 2 December 2012, 17:59:39
I see that there's no point in trying to discuss this in a neutral, objective way

you don't reply/react to what we write or ask and when you furthermore accuse me of supporting terrorist groups I have to end the discussion from my side

it's a shame tough since the complete issue needs discussions to end it but when we can't seem to do so why should we expect this from those on the frontline


This has been one of my major issues if you look at all the comments they always put it down to Palestinian intransigence as the root cause and yet every one I have ever met has accepted a two state option however the hardest problem I have encountered is finding an Israeli or one of its supporters that will even recognise the Palestinians as human.

As I have mentioned elsewhere I am amazed that 70 years ago Jews required the world to save them from a nation that was exercising the same racial superiority BS that we now get from Israel, makes me wonder whether we shouldn't have put up with Hitler for another couple of years and saved ourselves all these problems.
 


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: Koen on 2 December 2012, 18:04:55
Quote
makes me wonder whether we shouldn't have put up with Hitler for another couple of years and saved ourselves all these problems.

don't agree with this statement either, killing and the logical wars don't end anything neither are a solution of what so ever, they are signs of weakness

but yes, mankind IS weak cause we seem only capable to start problems but never end/prevent them


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: MontyB on 3 December 2012, 00:39:43
Quote
makes me wonder whether we shouldn't have put up with Hitler for another couple of years and saved ourselves all these problems.

don't agree with this statement either, killing and the logical wars don't end anything neither are a solution of what so ever, they are signs of weakness

but yes, mankind IS weak cause we seem only capable to start problems but never end/prevent them


I am not sure I care anymore, it is by now abundantly clear to anyone with an IQ above 5 that Israel will never accept a Palestinian state in any form greater than a modern equivalent of the Warsaw ghetto and all we do is sit here listening to a group who cant make peace because they refuse to see the other side as anything more than animals so at some point I think we have to decide whether we really should be backing a side that really is the modern day version of the SS.

I grew up in a world that remembered the holocaust and how the plucky little Israel struggled to come into existence only to discover that the only thing Israel learnt from the holocaust was how to perpetrate it onto another race in such a way that they could keep it just under the radar of what America could tolerate and still pay for.

At some point the west has to stop accepting guilt for something it wasn't party to, grow a moral nutsack and reign in Israel before some other crazy bastards turn it into a glowing hole in the ground.


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: stoffel on 3 December 2012, 09:25:16
Monty,

I got several phone calls from colleagues, all members of the police (one is an officer on the court itself)who told me that your last remark is punishable by Dutch law as antisemitism.
Please remove that phrase about Hitler from your topic.

(makes me wonder whether we shouldn't have put up with Hitler for another couple of years and saved ourselves all these problems.)


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: MontyB on 3 December 2012, 11:36:08
Monty,

I got several phone calls from colleagues, all members of the police (one is an officer on the court itself)who told me that your last remark is punishable by Dutch law as antisemitism.
Please remove that phrase about Hitler from your topic.

(makes me wonder whether we shouldn't have put up with Hitler for another couple of years and saved ourselves all these problems.)


Better yet just have it deleted as it has already been quoted in other posts and close my account with it as I see no point in being part of a forum that panders to one persons whims.


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: Rattler on 3 December 2012, 12:40:27
It is clear that Stoffel cannot be rational about the problem, so it is useless to even try and discuss with him: Whatever you say he will find an answer why Israel is right anyway, period.

When Ben Gurion blew up Hotels it was legitimate to create the State of Israel, when a Palestinian blows up himself against the occupying forces its terror. For me both is terror, but for Stoffel not.

And if nothing works against arguments, like in Germany, a stance against Israel gets branded antisemite, the big hammer that is expected to shut up any argument. Quite obviously this is as absurd as to say anybody critizising the US is a Satanist, or arguing against Al Quaeda is being anti-muslim but quite obviously it is not obvious to everybody.

For the record: Being totally opposed to Israels acts of state terrorism has nothing to do with being antisemitic, a war crime is a war crime whoever commits it and it has nothing to do with religion. For us anyway.

FWIW,

Rattler


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: stoffel on 3 December 2012, 15:28:47
Matt,

May I remind you.
My mother in law was born in a concentrationcamp, so yes I do know what I am talking about.
Its my people who face extermination if it is up to the Arabs and their supporters.
I will repeat the words of the IDF chief of staff: Never again the Jewish people will be defenseless.
And yes I cant speak about this topic with people who are close to being anti-semitic and I will not tolerate it.

If Monty wouldnt have used my name in the beginning to trigger a response ( one he therefore knew that would come) I wouldnt have reacted anyway.



Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: Koen on 3 December 2012, 22:12:23
WaT is not and has never been a police state and members who write down their opinion get my respect even when I do NOT agree with their statements.

I have more respect for people who take the time, the effort and the stress to participate than for those who read but only react via via.

What I do object to are people who use the words neonazi, antisemite, pro-Hamas and other words to accuse other members.

What I don't see in this discussion are answers to correct questions. People have tens, hundreds of words and sentences to accuse and insult but not 1 word to reply to a question.

Several times it comes down to the question 'why do you think that hate and war will solve the problem'. We never get a response but only (a) new statement(s).

I see it as a sign of stupidity that when someone reads my words and knows my thoughts they accuse me of all things I'm against.

There is no victory in war and so long people see war as a solution and weapons as a mean of dialogue they loose.


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: Rattler on 3 December 2012, 22:14:27
Matt,

May I remind you.
My mother in law was born in a concentrationcamp, so yes I do know what I am talking about.
Its my people who face extermination if it is up to the Arabs and their supporters.

Thats what I meant when saying you cannot think rationally about it, it is all emotions. Not saying this is bad, it is simply the way it is. Please allow us to treat you as an emotional but not rational commenter henceforward.

I will repeat the words of the IDF chief of staff: Never again the Jewish people will be defenseless.

So, it is a cause of religion for you after all? Then, I will leave you - as all the islamists - behind as being religiously blinded and hence without serious (for me) reason. Have you ever given concern to how bad religion has served us as humans in interconnection? Have you?

And yes I cant speak about this topic with people who are close to being anti-semitic and I will not tolerate it.

Well, if I understand the forum and the world right, you will have to put up to it. You are not GOD, and there are things - you actually are in arms for - that might not fit your liking (I as communist worked hard to allow everybody free speech against the Russian ideas: I elected to give everybody, incl. the Nazis, their say and I hate their ideas, but the idea of being *free* is so much greater...!).

Anti-semitism, you dont "tolerate" it. But you ask for Muslims to tolerate all the swaths at them? Reality check, please?

Religion fouls up your thinking (and mine, so: Forget Religion!), and you are raw meat to the media butchers out there. Thats step one, there are more, but it all comes down to "Think For Yourself!" and that usually works best putting on the shoes of the people you are facing or that are around you.

I reiterate my challenge, come with me to Gaza (after such long time - I was there last in 89 - I will need 6 month least preparation, but *for you* I would strive to make it a go) and then I want to hear you speak again. *I* have been there, you not. I claim to have better insight, hence.

*My* insight was that the media in the US and Germany (and Holland, dont know?) have been playing along a pre-written scheme by the Israelis, once you are there you see who is right and who is wrong, there is no mistaking, and it is actually dead simple just looking at it, no great head revolution needed. Find yourself under fire when doing nothing there and you will get a grip of reality, not what the media tell you or what they form you to believe.

For the record, I am the first to acknowledge and punish racist or anti-religious behaviour here, but you have no say in what you are going to tolerate or not (as a member), except for your right of *personal* response, which *I* went to enlist to grant it, again, and proudly, just for the record.

What have you enlisted for, to serve Israel? As a Dutch? Would this mean I would have to defend the Vatican as a Catholic instead of my German home nation?

At least I have been going out serving an idea (Human Rights, I was asking my subordinates and now am still asking my apprentecis: "What World Do You Want To Live In? Act it, accordingly!") and not a religious or national aspect (whether this was right or wrong history will tell). This was an US idea, of course, and I now realize they did not mean it the way I understood it then, but this does not make it bad or take one grain to have gone for it. I will keep on trying, as I like the idea of this world imagined.

For me, it was (and still is 30 yrs later) clear: To serve freedom of thought, speech and openminded interaction, personal responsibility and a feel of Right and Wrong. Never wanted to become a Soviet Union slave though being a communist (at those times). Nor will I now become an Israel slave to serve their perverted form of running a country (oh, Syria, well, almost forgot... But is it not the same? Where is your outcry on terrorism? Being anti-Syrian is anti-Shii? Or what? Shiis are bad, Sunnies are good? Or what? So much for being accused of being antisemite...).

If Monty wouldnt have used my name in the beginning to trigger a response ( one he therefore knew that would come) I wouldnt have reacted anyway..

If thats your take, why did you do it? Got carried away? Happens to all of us, sometimes, but: Then it would seem an apology would be the sincere way to go (totally from my POV, of course). I did not react to your provocative remark of my sharing my knowledge of German inclinations (which I presume to know better than you) though I could have, and ferociously, I just let it be. Why? Because if we are facing "beliefs" nothing will work out discussing, "beliefs" are just out of it (see Islamists, Jews, Catholics, etc.). No reason to get personal (in a discussion or debate), or did you like the Crusades?

Get a life, Stoffel, you are such a great guy, start thinking out of the box and off from what your media tell you, there are real people out there like you and me, and we are getting spoonged. Come to the people (you are one of them), stay off of politicians mouth work - right or left are equal in this - and you just might make it to another level before you die. At least thats what I hope to achieve for myself...

FWIW,

Kindest regards,

Rattler


Title: Re: Palestine rejoices after recognition
Post by: stoffel on 4 December 2012, 14:46:57
Too bad matt,

Media here isnt pro Israel.
Nobody mentiones daily attacks on israel they do report Palestinians get hurt after Israel hits back.
Pro Palestine demonstrations get media coverage.......

Latest exchange of fire was set in motion by the Islamic Jihad in order to weaken Hamas, and to get funding from Egypt nobody reacted on that news.
The prove for it is the Fatwa spoken out by a high ranking muslim leader that no one is allowed to violate the seize fire because it would endanger the relations with Egypt ( read flow of money)
Oh yes Israel had to react and shot back........and the world falls over it and why?
Because of games played by Palestinian terrorists another kind of powerstruggle between them.
Political games.

You never heard or really read what I said.
Palestinian civilians are being held hostage by terrorists, I bat that when they got rid of Hamas.Jihad and so on their life can be normal.
I have a personal opinion, everybody here knows that. Dont ask for it if you dont like what you are going to hear.

You talked about Ben Gurion, allthough there was a difference I dont tolerate the use of (deadly) violence by terrorists, you also know that.
You also know that if I have to guard a mosk against Jewish demonstrators I will be the first to shoot when they would become  violent.
The jewish people fought for freedom and got it, Israel is now a democracy the only one in the middle east, where everybody can live and work even Palestinians (they cant in their arab brothers countries where they are locked up in camps).
Hamas and Jihad have no real interest in a Palestinian state nor freedom for their citizens they are not fighting to build a state with freedom for the rest of the people like Ben Gurion did.Look what happened in Egypt...do we have a democracy after the uprising, no. In fact like some military obeservers warned for happened, Egypt turned into an even worse dictator lead country than under Mubarrak.
The Palestinians people in Gaza are being terrorized and have no freedom at all, and worst of all  the ordinary citizens are the ones who get hurt because of the games the terrorists play.
And please tell me how can you have peace with a religion that sees all other people as enemies? With factions who only seek for the destruction of an entire country and its people backed up by a religion which claims the same?
I support the Jewish people and I will allways do, why because I owe that to my mother in law and all others who were killed in the camps as well as to several good friends who died in Lebanon and Israeli friends who died.
That doesnt mean I will kill every muslim in the world, but as long as they claim they will kill us I will be ready for them. And that also doesnt mean I hate all Germans because they started ww 2 and killed so many people.
You also know ( I told you) that I am not very proud of my own countries heretage like slavery and the killings of many people in the east.
Tell me what do you think will happen when Israel is destroyed?
The Arab neighbours will steal all its infrastructure and knowledge and leave the rest to the Palestinians,  destroyed cities and a desolate stretch of land just as the land the arab farmers sold to the state of Israel after the second world war.
Within a year they will start killing eachother because they dont know anything else.

And also tell me what happened to Arafat and Fatah after the succesfull talks with Israel, which lead to closer cooperation and a huge economical growth for the Palestinian areas....
They were ousted from power by Hamas and now Hamas is being forced to surrender to the Jihad.
The Palestinian areas are bleeding dead, all money and infrastructure is being use against Israel in a war the Palestinians people (and the Israeli people either) doesnt want.
So there we are... back to what I started this reply with....nothing changes...really.

A useless war that neither side can win , that  uses resourches that can be used for other things and that kills to many people.
I have no soltution to end the war and to break through the circle, you, Koen and Monty neither only the politicians (who started this)can end this.
As long as there is nobody who does I will stay with my opinion and I will support the Jewish people. There is no right or wrong, only with or against.........