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Author Topic: News Item about Germany  (Read 4725 times)
FACman
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« on: 23 December 2009, 16:07:30 »
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Though this article speaks to events in Germany, I see a dangerous parallel here in the US regarding 'foreigners'. I am dismayed by the fact that the human race is so slow to learn some lessons.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20091223/wl_time/08599194951800

Quote
In Germany, a Disturbing Rise of Right-Wing Violence

The attack seemed singularly horrific - an Egyptian pharmacist, Marwa el-Sherbini, was testifying during an appeal hearing in a Dresden courtroom on July 1 when a Russian ÉmigrÉ, Alex Wiens, lunged at her with a seven-inch kitchen knife. The pregnant mother was stabbed to death as her husband and 3-year-old son looked on helplessly. After protests swept the Arab world, Wiens was sentenced to life in prison in November for what the court deemed a racially motivated murder.

read more....

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Jilly
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« Reply #1 on: 24 December 2009, 00:09:43 »
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Very disturbing.  I have heard of all the right-wing related violence/crimes happening in Germany for a while now,  I never realized it was so bad though.  Will people never learn? 
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Mad Russian
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« Reply #2 on: 24 December 2009, 03:06:14 »
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Though this article speaks to events in Germany, I see a dangerous parallel here in the US regarding 'foreigners'. I am dismayed by the fact that the human race is so slow to learn some lessons.



I guess I'm missing the dangerous parallel here in the US. At least here where I live. So far I've yet to see my first instance of a Middle Eastern person assaulted out of hand. Much less killed. Not even in the national headlines, much less locally.

Here we have the Mexican Drug Cartel doing war with anybody that gets in the way. I guess that could be considered a dangerous parallel.

Good Hunting.

MR
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Tanker
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« Reply #3 on: 24 December 2009, 07:26:51 »
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On the contrary, I'm pretty proud of how most people in the US held in check xenophobic tendencies in the wake of 9-11.  A marked contrast to the hysteria after Pearl Harbor.  I guess I just don't feel the need to apologize and feel bad about the country all the time.
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FACman
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« Reply #4 on: 24 December 2009, 16:13:06 »
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On the contrary, I'm pretty proud of how most people in the US held in check xenophobic tendencies in the wake of 9-11.


In that I would tend to agree, as far as I know, there was only one fatality, a Sikh wearing a pugree (correct term for their headdress) murdered for revenge, by some clown who didn't know there was a difference between Islam & Sikhism.

However, it is the loyal Americans carrying semi automatic weapons to presidential appearances that strike me as threatening. All it will take is one looney out to save America from the ravages of socialism to set the conflagration. Lord knows I have seen and heard my fill of the fear mongering on our airwaves. Mayhaps my tolerance for such a potential is lower than yours, and only time will tell if my fears are warranted.

Quote
I guess I'm missing the dangerous parallel here in the US.

 

Many missed it the last time a president was held with such disdain, Kennedy was warned that he was disliked in Texas prior to his visit. And perhaps you did not hear about the guy who attacked the Holocaust Museum in D.C., killing a guard. Or the many attacks on synagogues here in the US, usually perpetrated by skinhead or white supremacist groups. Yes, I would say you are missing what is happening in your country. As in Germany, your ignorance of the threat, contributes to us repeating that bit of history. Bringing up the Drug Cartels is a straw man argument, as I did not question, nor do I fear, that they shall not be  dealt with successfully, in a like manner as other organized crime syndicates (follow the money).

ays,

Jody
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Mad Russian
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« Reply #5 on: 24 December 2009, 19:21:48 »
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Ah, you mean that there are actually AMERICAN CITIZENS that don't like the President? Go figure.

No matter whose in office.

But I didn't take your comments to be about the President but the way the American public reacted to 9-11. Specifically to the comments about the German woman who killed a woman of Middle Eastern dissent.

I've not seen that a single time where, here in the US, someone was KILLED for simply being of Middle Eastern ethnicity, since this whole thing started. In fact, I see the exact opposite. I think that the general American public is bending over backwards to make sure that kind of knee jerk reaction isn't taking place.

Yes, I hear about people being stupid all the time. I don't hear of a national prejudice towards any "foreigners" here though. Not in the context you put your post in.

There are very much stronger regional prejudices here in the US at play than any national ones I've ever seen. As a single example, go to Utah and try to get a job if you're not Mormon.

Now if you want to talk about the President and all the King's Men, that's a different discussion. Are there conspiracies here in the US against the US Government? Of course there are. Could they shoot the President? Of course they could and it's likely that if things don't improve in the country his chances of someone trying to shoot him increases as well.

Again, that's a completely different subject than the one you brought into this thread. Strawmen or not.

Good Hunting.

MR
« Last Edit: 24 December 2009, 19:27:00 by Mad Russian » Logged
Mad Russian
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« Reply #6 on: 24 December 2009, 19:30:10 »
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As far as a national prejudice goes, here in the US, it's estimated that by 2050 the European born ethnic group will be in the minority.

That shows just how much national prejudice we have towards letting other groups besides Caucasians into the country doesn't it?

Good Hunting.

MR
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Jilly
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« Reply #7 on: 24 December 2009, 21:32:46 »
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Having lived in the UK, which I guess you could say is a part of Europe,  And being very familiar with both Canada and the US, AND speaking as a person of color, these are my observations:

I found that certain people in the UK were MUCH more prejudice then anyone I have ever come across in the US.  Yes,  I do remember the story of the turbaned Indian man who was killed by a skinhead in New York.  A total tragedy, I know,  but compare that to what was happening in the UK between 2003 and 2005 (when I was living there). There is a reason I choose to live here and not in the UK or Germany or France come to that.

When I was there, the police were warning people of color and minorities not to venture out to night clubs or late at night as so many of them were being attacked by racists.  Minority shop owners in the town that I was living in had their windows constantly smashed in. A young South Asian man was murdered by skin heads about 20 miles from where I lived,  they were convicted and sentenced. Racial attacks were COMMON.  I could carry on and on...but I think you get the picture.

 After 9-11 these kind of attacks and prejudice accelerated and closet racists started coming out of the woodwork like crazy.    It was very hard living in the UK anyway, but after 9-11, thing were getting out of hand.  The thing is that some  'white'  English people see England as 'their' country and can be very hostile towards anyone who doesn't look or sound like them. 

Although the US (and Canada), are not perfect by any means,  at least we can say, that, (maybe apart from Native Indians), we are ALL foreigners here,  some have just been here longer then others. So it's kind of hypocritical to select certain people to hate.  Although it happens ofcourse.

I can see how 'whites' will be a minority in the US soon enough,  and I think that's a step in the right direction.  Like Martin Luther said in that famous speak of his, (notice bold):

''In spite of the difficulties of the moment, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood.
I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.
I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
I have a dream today.
I have a dream that one day the state of Alabama...will be transformed into a situation where little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls...I have a dream today.
I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight...
...From every mountainside, let freedom ring.
When we let freedom ring,...we will be able to speed up that day when all God's children...will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we're free at last!"






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FACman
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« Reply #8 on: 24 December 2009, 21:56:20 »
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I've not seen that a single time where, here in the US, someone was KILLED for simply being of Middle Eastern ethnicity, since this whole thing started. In fact, I see the exact opposite. I think that the general American public is bending over backwards to make sure that kind of knee jerk reaction isn't taking place.


FYI
 MESA, Ariz. (AP) -- A man was convicted of murder Tuesday in the slaying of a turbaned, bearded Sikh who prosecutors said was gunned down four days after the Sept. 11 attacks because he was mistaken for an Arab.

The jury, which began deliberations late Monday, rejected Frank Silva Roque's insanity claim.

Roque, 44, could get the death penalty.

 Roque fatally shot Indian immigrant Balbir Singh Sodhi in front of the gas station he owned on Sept. 15, 2001.
Copyright C 2003 Deseret News Publishing Co.
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved

You don't have to believe me, Google hate crimes against Arabs, Muslims and Sikhs (who aren't even Muslims) after 9-11. You will then be awakened to your lack of awareness of what has/is actually happened/happening in our country and from whence my concern arises. Throw in the anti-Semitic , the anti-illegal immigrant and the pure racist hate crimes and you will find, a not so rosy picture as you wish to portray. Failure to face the reality of our situation only allows it to continue and strengthen in the darkness of ignorance.

As for not liking the President, that is the right of every American, I practice it regularly when clowns like Ronald Raygun and Georgie Porgie get elected. I however, do not condone nor support their removal by any other than constitutional means. I was likening the talking heads who spread lies about his origins, making him out to be a 'foreigner' in the hopes that some gullible looney will act on the lie. That is in essence no different than the other hate crimes. Or maybe you hadn't heard about the 'Birthers' or the 'Tea Partiers' down in Texas. Google them as well, to get an idea of how far out on the fringe some of their concepts are. So you can see, bringing the president into the picture is not out of context as regards to 'Hate Crimes' which was the original subject of this posting.

Quote
As far as a national prejudice goes, here in the US, it's estimated that by 2050 the European born ethnic group will be in the minority.
That shows just how much national prejudice we have towards letting other groups besides Caucasians into the country doesn't it?


Once again a straw man argument, the ethnicity of the country is not the point in question, the point that this post wishes to address is about ethnic hate crimes, in their many manifestations. I am concerned with, and you have made my point very well indeed, that we as Americans are failing to see and address them as well as we could. And that we do at our own peril, my original concern.



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« Reply #9 on: 25 December 2009, 00:24:03 »
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It will still be a long time before racism and hatred of others who are 'not like us' is irradiated. I hope that day will come,  I am forever the optimist. 

FACman,  thanks for making this thread,  we should never  become blind or try and brush 'under the carpet' which is still, a very big problem in this world.
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« Reply #10 on: 25 December 2009, 07:26:53 »
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- snip -

And perhaps you did not hear about the guy who attacked the Holocaust Museum in D.C., killing a guard. Or the many attacks on synagogues here in the US, usually perpetrated by skinhead or white supremacist groups. Yes, I would say you are missing what is happening in your country. As in Germany, your ignorance of the threat, contributes to us repeating that bit of history. Bringing up the Drug Cartels is a straw man argument, as I did not question, nor do I fear, that they shall not be  dealt with successfully, in a like manner as other organized crime syndicates (follow the money).

ays,

Jody

I am slow, and thinking up a serious response to your primary quote (all I can say it is right, and has been for a while, during the time being with my ex who visited me on occasions in Germany I always told her to stay away of certain areas of the country - the threat, at least at this time, was/is (?)  connected to former Soviet controlled parts of Germany, your article seems to suggest the same but with being away 7 yrs I cannot comment first hand anymore)

Rattler
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« Reply #11 on: 25 December 2009, 14:39:21 »
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...your article seems to suggest the same...


In this case I was referring more to the taciturn acceptance by our cultures, of that which our Fathers and Grandfathers paid such a high price in blood to rectify. I suppose I was attempting to remind us all, of our not so distant past, in the hope that my Granddaughter will not have to refight that battle...
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« Reply #12 on: 12 July 2011, 14:40:00 »
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An update to this conversation...

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I guess I'm missing the dangerous parallel here in the US. At least here where I live. So far I've yet to see my first instance of a Middle Eastern person assaulted out of hand. Much less killed. Not even in the national headlines, much less locally.



http://news.yahoo.com/post-9-11-sikhs-mistaken-targets-091708623.html

As you can see, time has not healed this wound.
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« Reply #13 on: 12 July 2011, 16:38:19 »
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Not only that, after 9-11 I have tried to discuss with  Morrocans dancing in the street.
They were bringing the Hitler salute......

So I asked them why, and they replied, dead to all jews and Hitler was a friend of the arabs and more.
Well, I went back into my house and returned with Sydnors book about the 3rd SS division.
They were shocked to read that the first Morocan soldiers the SS encountered in France were all shot because they were racially inferior (for whats that worth....) according to the German racial laws.

Most of these views are brought forth out of ignorance and unknowing history.


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