http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/03/mexicos_drug_war.html (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/03/mexicos_drug_war.html)

pictures say more then words...

Your comment?

I can (and do follow closely) read all this stuff on the net as well as you, I think in a *discussion* forum you need to put your opinion (?) if you want a reply...

Seriously, if you you do not voice an opinion *I* wont even follow the link... Like it or leave it.

My 2 (Euro) Cents,

Rattler

P.S.: I am (and have been) in a current overall "rant mode" for the last two weeks and do not know neither how to stop it nor how else to treat it... so do not take me too serious and bear with me... (12 brandys, and this is not meant to be an excuse in the case of a post that just contains a link) R.

maybe you guys can tell ME what can be posted or not?

links? NOT
anything about Israel? NOT

damn...

You got that wrong...

Look, I cannot even type straightly with 12 brandys, but there is a kind of "no written" *law* in forums (mainly for copyroght issues) that states:

You do not *ever* post a link without comment...

Justt FYI, this is "netiquette" ...

Even if you just state: "I found this one interesting comment on issue xxxyyy" you are off copyright challenges and eve can cite 15% of the overall text wihtout being demanded by a lawyeer for whatever - usually aound 2+ Million if it can be read in the UK or the US -... (Hard times in the 21st, mate...)

Rattler

well, this is not about my opinion and /or comments...I post because I want to share this info...

To be fair Rattler, it appears that Koen did make a comment.

Pictures can also lie.

Indeed, I stand corrected and apologize.

Rattler

In this case those pictures are nothing compared to what's being shown here. The drug war is on our news channels every night in one form or another.

While Mexico exports drugs to the US it seems that the US is exporting guns to Mexico. Almost without exception all the guns that are confiscated from the drug armies are from the US. Both sides are trying to stop the transfer of goods back and forth across the border.

Good Hunting.

MR

All the crackheads here in the US and anyothers buying drugs from the cartels are directly responsible for this.  But crackheads being crackheads don't really know or care. >:(

I agree. If there was no demand then there would be no supply.

Good Hunting.

MR

Seems we are doomed to repeat the lessons not learned from prohibition. Ones morality cannot be legislated. Hows that war on drugs doing anyhow? Hundreds of billions for law enforcement, and pennies for programs dealing with the real issue, the addictive personality. That is to say, it is a health issue, and except for the notorious Mobs, is not a legal issue.

Guess Im more of a libertarian on this issue.

ays,

J

Simple....no demand...no supply.

Good Hunting.

MR

That's a hard one.  I'm not sure I'm ready to see crack and meth and heroin sold in the corner "drug" store.

Tanker sez:


Aye, it would take a similar leap of faith, as the country put into 'The War on Drugs', which by most accounts has been a dismal failure, or since it is couched in war terminology, we are no closer to winning than when we started. I suggest that by eliminating the 'Black Market' aspects, we might find the violence associated with this tremendously lucrative underground economy, to be lessened appreciably. Yes, I might just be completely wrong about it (some would say Looney), however, once prohibition was ended, and one could legally find their poison down at the corner store, the violence around the commodity itself, died down considerably. The Mobs had to find other outlets for their money making schemes. Besides, today one need not go into that store on the corner to get their fix, in fact, you need not even get out of your car, as the pushers sell it right from the sidewalk. Which begs the question, 'What's the difference?'

Then there's that other question, 'What do you call it,  when you continue to do the same thing, time after time (War on Drugs), expecting the results to be different, yet the results remain the same?' I call that Looney! Time to discard what hasnt worked and 'try' something different. Once upon a time the state of New York, had the bright idea to slam dunk drug users and pushers with heavy mandatory sentences. How has that worked out? Oh yeah, they are repealing them due to their failure to impact the situation. Many states who used similar methods, now find their prisons overcrowded, with many a truly dangerous criminal released due to the overcrowding. While the casual users, nailed by the harsh penalties instituted during the war on drugs, who other than their casual usage, were in fact nothing more than working stiffs, with no other criminal records or tendencies.

In my entire adult life, I have watched the 'War on Drugs' fail to seriously impact anything, other than the profits of those in the black market (to their benefit). I reiterate, it is a medical problem, not a legal one. The sooner we come to that realization. the sooner we can start to turn this problem around. I dont assert that I have all the answers, I shall leave that for the brighter minds to resolve. All I know is, from where I sit, the 'War on Drugs' can never be won.

ays,

Jody

ps Food for thought...I'll bet the corner drug store isnt 'packing' (street terminology for being armed)

Where I used to work we ran an ad for heavy equipment operators. Told them that we drug tested.

We got 12 responses. Only 2 could pass the drug test they knew we would give them.....HELLO.....

You want to win the war on drugs make it tied in with your keeping your job or getting a new one. Can't pass the drug test then lose the job or not get it in the beginning.

Of course there need to be programs to rehab those that want/need help. That is the best answer of all but while the addict/user is still active those don't help.

Anyone "caught" by a random test should automatically lose their job. If you come forward on your own, meaning not being caught by a random test then you get to go to counceling.....otherwise no job and no unemployment benefits.

Good Hunting.

MR

MR sez:


This concept may in fact be possible, with a change in emphasis on where the money goes. Since there are ~47 million 'working stiffs' with no medical insurance and inadequate support of rehab by the govt, due to it's continued criminalization efforts, who could afford rehab? I suggest not enough to win the war. As it is, far too many Rehab programs have waiting lists that sometimes approach a year or longer to get into. So while an addict may in fact recognize he/she needs help, how do they handle their addiction in the meantime?

As for active addicts not being helped by rehab, I question your logic and knowledge of the addictive personality. If an addict could stop being addicted before entering rehab, it would no longer be necessary. For example; to apply this logic to my PTSD, I would need to stop employing my avoidance behavior, before I get into the therapy that would teach me the coping skills to stop the behavior.

In closing, as long as we attach negative stigma to the problem (jail or unemployment) ie; punish the behavior, we are not going to be dealing with the problem from a positive direction, and will continue to fail.  Im for keeping the jails uncrowded, so that we have room for the really scary folks. Cut back the emphasis on Law enforcement solving the problem and give the doctors a shot at it. Instead of fighting a losing, war on drugs, how about we try a war on addiction. Oh yeah, the Law Enforcement Lobby is addicted to the cash, and wont accept the decriminalization. Damn, and I thought I almost had it! (satire alert)

ays,

Jody

 

Okies, this is now the fourth time I am giving it a try, I am getting bored (one power out every 30 min, my comp refuses to recognise my mouse after unexpcted powerout, and even saved drafts are lost), so please bear with me if it comes over a bit curtly (I was much more soft and gentle about 2 hours ago trying to respond to this post):

Let me sum up some of the takes:



If I understand correctly, this was after you had announced a drug test, 12 applicants, and only 2 passed. Do the same for alcohol use for the last day, and nobody will.

Now, (a pity Henk does not chime in yet, they sell drugs over the counter there) in the Netherlands *state controlled* sale is free and non-punishable (not saying it is legal), same here in Spain (here private use is non-punishable if not legal). I do not know whether you have been to the NLs, but despite this (and the huge crowd of - mainly German and US - tourists that just come for getting owned w/o fear of getting busted) they seem to be fairly normal ppl (NOTE: ...from a European POV):

(Ouch, this one costs me as a German, but as I right now wear my intl hat, here goes...):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIg9VaMBi9o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIg9VaMBi9o)

This one only costs me half as much as I adore good soccer (the other half is that Dutch Soccer for us Germans is ANTICHRIST  waa, but he was - before Zidane- the best I knew (and a pity he got this injury that did not allow him to perofrm to high age):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSDfpfl1Z9w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSDfpfl1Z9w)

Ok, lets keep on track, and here is my take (for ppl with short concentration span that do not like to read the whole long post: I am kinda saying the same as FacMan, but talking and conversing from experience): Netherlands have the most liberal drug use/proliferation laws on this planet (AFAIK; Henk?), and they really, with the execption of Ruud Gullit or Marco Van Basten, seem to just simply enjoy themselves - be it on weed or mushrooms - as well as we non users (  hihi ) do after having downed a few beers...:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lmKlN241uw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lmKlN241uw)

Check the arrest: You wont even notice it if you did not knew it was one, nothing like the (agrression induced) US take on arrests...

Or, take this one: You Overseas Guys might find it weird, I just see someone earning his money naked on a rope (and paying taxes as the Dutch are too c.lever to let anyone perform w/o license and due pay), you can see him at Leise Place every day from Spring to Autumn (and, actually, from my POV: This is what freedomm is about: Like it or do not like it, but let the guy do his act!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R3ohaj8yos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R3ohaj8yos)

More on what you, MR, are on about probably (just guessing), if it is too much drugs, something like this is not unusual there "I am The President Of The U.S. of A.!"):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPfHIpF9fTM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPfHIpF9fTM)

Maybe sad, but I guess (I have known a few like that when working there at the RAI) he will be fine and going back to his usual work day next day again... maybe a bit embarrassed...

Did you see the violent reaction of people watching him pass by (there is even a p.olice cylce not too far in the bg)? No?

That is what I want to point out: You are killing yourself, making ridicule of yourself, or whatever, but: IT IS YOUR DECISION AND PROBLEM, not mine, as long as you leave us others alone (which those guys, being able to get their daily splash w/o having to set up a drug store or else, usually do): Where is the f***ng prob?

The problem is that in the prohibition countries ppl can get *extremely* rich by producing, distributing, bribing (law enforcement and politicians), killing (competition) on the drug plan.

As FacMan says: Make it free (and, if you like like in A´dam state controlled - though I do not think that is necessary -) and 92% of the drug associated criminality goes away. Educate your kids well (as we do here in Europe), and they will be able to cope with the threat (if it is a "Big Secret" they will not even tell you when finding themselves in harms way).

Take the money out, and the problem is livable (why do you think the US is so strong for the anti drug laws: As a cynic I tell you: Because 50% of their higher polititians is on the pay roll....)

Look: I have come over Heroine, and I have come over Cocaine myself, all in the ´80s. Since two years now I have an alcohol problem (and always have had a tobacoo one). Guess which gives me more pain?

By prohibition you will not get one guy off drugs, but you will fill a lot of pockets with a lot of dough that should not go there...

My 2c,

Rattler

In an earlier post, I spoke about 'brighter minds' coming up with better ways to deal with the drug issue. Lo and behold, look what I found today...

Last week, Senator Jim Webb announced his intention to take that kind of reconsideration national by introducing his National Criminal Justice Act Commission of 2009. On the floor of the Senate he

    Let’s start with a premise that I don’t think a lot of Americans are aware of. We have 5% of the world’s population; we have 25% of the world’s known prison population. We have an incarceration rate in the United States, the world’s greatest democracy, that is five times as high as the average incarceration rate of the rest of the world. There are only two possibilities here: either we have the most evil people on earth living in the United States; or we are doing something dramatically wrong in terms of how we approach the issue of criminal justice. . . .

    The elephant in the bedroom in many discussions on the criminal justice system is the sharp increase in drug incarceration over the past three decades. In 1980, we had 41,000 drug offenders in prison; today we have more than 500,000, an increase of 1,200%. . . .

    African-Americans are about 12% of our population; contrary to a lot of thought and rhetoric, their drug use rate in terms of frequent drug use rate is about the same as all other elements of our society, about 14%. But they end up being 37% of those arrested on drug charges, 59% of those convicted, and 74% of those sentenced to prison.

Webb’s bill calls for a commission to review the country’s criminal justice system “from top to bottom” and to rethink “who goes to prison and for how long and of how we address the long-term consequences of incarceration.”

A little food for thought, from a Brother Leatherneck, Viet Vet and hopefully, future President of the US.

ays,

Jody

Dont know where you got the data from (though I belive you that theyre fact), but you got my vote already... (which, as coming from a Passport Spaniard, won´t count...)

Rattler

Data comes from Sen. Webb quote on senate floor. His credibility is of sufficient stature as to be good enough for me. I suspect the republicans who regularly smear Veterans will have other ideas.

ays,

J