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Author Topic: Bloodbath in Alphen aan de Rijn ( Netherlands)  (Read 3967 times)
stoffel
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« on: 9 April 2011, 14:26:56 »
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The latest news (sunday 10-04).
On april 9 a 24 year old white man (named Tristan van der Vlis) dressed in a black bomberjacket and camouflaged cloths killed 6 people, and wounded 17 others in a mall before committing suicide 7 of those victims are badly hurt among them 2 children.
A total of 12 victims have to stay in hospital.
Among the victims were children and a woman in a wheelchair.
Eye witnesses claimed the shooter walked calmly through the mall in Alphen for 10 to 20 minutes shooting at everybody who moved.
People panicked and shops closed their doors, people hid in toilets, closets, basements and behind counters of shops.
Police arrived fast but wasnt allowed to go in, they had to wait for the SWAT teams to arrive according to some wittnesses.
According to those same witnesses there was a second gunman, but no-one else was found.
A letter was found in the shooters appartment ( living at his fathers appartment) but there was no motive found for the shooting according to a police spokesman, however in this letter the man spoke about explosives hidden in the other 3 malls in Alphen, therefore the police closed and searched those 3 other malls in Alphen.

Details of victims known:
3 women and 3 man among the deads are no children.
The women were aged 91, 68 and 45, the men 80, 49 and 42, this last man was from Syrian origine.

Lateste news about the shooter.
The man responsible for this crime had a psychiatric history.
He spent several months in a clinic where he was treated for depressions, he was classified as an extreme suicidal risk.
Many people find it very strange that a guy with such mental problems can become a member of a shooting club and more important can buy firearms.


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Koen
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« Reply #1 on: 10 April 2011, 08:55:33 »
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http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/990/Buitenland/article/detail/1248458/2011/04/10/Dader-schietpartij-Nederland-is-24-jarige-wapenliefhebber.dhtml

24-year old shooter
7 dead
11 injured
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Rattler
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« Reply #2 on: 10 April 2011, 20:50:42 »
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...very strange that a guy with such mental problems can become a member of a shooting club and more important can buy firearms....


First, I feel really sorry for the people that got affected or killed, and (kind of) happy it wasnt you, Henk (I had wondered, not many non-mil people have access to a minimi).

A sub machine gun (assault rifle) as the main weapon (thats what the news report here in Spain)? Are they standard in Dutch shooting clubs? They sure are not in Germany nor in Spain.

Looks somebody screwd up, big time (as always when something like this happens), but in the end you cannot really prevent these things from happening if you have a determined idiot and that kind of weapons put into their hands. Poor guy who will bear the legal charge for letting him have a minimi for starters, but then, I say: Dont look for that job to decide who can shoot what, its bound to end the wrong way, and with dead people on your conscience.

Between the guy in Brasil and the guy in Netherlands there was very short time, any connection (triggered?)?

Whatever, again we can see it is the access to fire arms that harms, not the person as such (though right wing people will state the opposite): With a knife, it would have been much harder to wreck such havoc.

Rattler
« Last Edit: 10 April 2011, 20:57:44 by Rattler » Logged

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stoffel
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« Reply #3 on: 10 April 2011, 21:03:07 »
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Yes and no.
You can buy weapons like the M16/Diemaco and Steyr AUG.
A member of a shooting club is allowed to use such weapons, laws are tough on the shooters though with strict rules and a very tough control on their usage and storage.
People are screened for criminal behaviour, but as proven now not for mentally illness Bedroefd
Military weapons like the ones above are not allowed if they can fire automatic, so they are modified to single round only with only 10 rounds magazines allowed.
And thats strange because if I fire my Diemaco on automatic I hit as good as nothing, whereas I fire round by round I will hit at least 90% of each target I aim at at 100 meters.
But its not so difficult to reverse engineer it and to buy larger magazines.
A solution might be to forbid having a weapon at home and have it stored at the clubs weaponsstorageroom and to forbid carrying it outside the room without police knowing it.
The biggest problem we face now is: why can a person mentally ill like this guy get weapons in the first place?
And of course, why is the police not allowed to carry an MP5 ( we have stocks full of that nice weapon) in their patrol cars.
Like I said before security firms complain a lot because they are often targeted by heavily armed eastern European gangs, police here only has the Walther PPK which is useless against criminals with AK's.
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« Reply #4 on: 11 April 2011, 09:43:03 »
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but still, at 24 a license to have multiple arms at home?
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stoffel
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« Reply #5 on: 11 April 2011, 13:45:17 »
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Why not?
With 18 years I can go in the army and operate much more powerfull weapons which can kill lots of people.
The problem is that the law only looks at criminal behaviour not mentally suitability.
Thats against another law Bedroefd
Personal freedom is a very powerfull and heavily protected right here.
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« Reply #6 on: 11 April 2011, 13:54:20 »
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Why not?
With 18 years I can go in the army and operate much more powerfull weapons which can kill lots of people.
The problem is that the law only looks at criminal behaviour not mentally suitability.
Thats against another law Bedroefd
Personal freedom is a very powerfull and heavily protected right here.


That I know but you're trained to become/act as a professional.
He was a civilian of 24. Why license for multiple arms and why/how he got that stuff at home?

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stoffel
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« Reply #7 on: 11 April 2011, 15:03:17 »
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I allready gave the answer.
The laws to have firearms at home are very tough here, in fact I dont know any other country where these laws are tougher.
Problem isnt that you can have a gun but to whom we give them to.
If the guy would have used a chainsaw or an axe he could have killed just as many people as he did now.
Another example are crossbows, a very powerfull and more deadly weapon than a pistol which can be bought everywhere without a license.
If he would have used such a bow I bet a lot of people wouldnt have noticed he was shooting.

Its the law which protects our personal information thats in the way here.
But you are right, we as reserve soldiers were not allowed to have our rifles at home anymore since 1997.
It would be a good thing to keep arms in a storage room at the shooting club.
Problem though with this is what to do with hunters who also have their rifles at home.
Its not so easy to come up with a solution.

But whats more disturbing to me is that this guy gave every terrorist a good example how vulnerable we are in the Netherlands against such attacks.
Something I knew for a long time but now everybody knows it.
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« Reply #8 on: 12 April 2011, 09:02:25 »
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latest reports I read:

'probably' it was a non-automatic gun that whas illegaly tuned to fire automatic
the shooter was known as mentally unstable (but this I hear every time they have a shooter in the Netherlands)
some 100 shots were fired

Henk, you said that police waited to enter the building until SWAT arrived. Were the police waiting outside with the shooter still firing inside or was he already dead?
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« Reply #9 on: 12 April 2011, 13:57:01 »
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There were some officers inside but they couldnt find out whats been going on because the panicking crowd forced them to go outside to.
From what I know they had to wait.
This is standard procedure because:
They are not armed to deal with such a situation.
They are not trained to use deadly force to take out a criminal like this, hence I mentioned the money transports.
They cannot take the risk to go in without knowing whats going on.
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« Reply #10 on: 12 April 2011, 22:58:37 »
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...I am so sorry to read your comments, Henk, as they describe clearly what makes a hero and what not.

My 2c,,

Rattler

(and as for you moving bigger stuffin the army, thats the point: Within the Army... Once trained you have whats called "fire discipline", something a civilian will not even have a clue about).

R.
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stoffel
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« Reply #11 on: 13 April 2011, 13:35:29 »
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I know, and thats whats annoying sometimes.
We have been issued a good weapon but are virtually not allowed to use it.
Same goes for the police, I think every squadcar should have at least 1 MP5 in the trunk of the car in case of an emergency.

Problem is that the higher (burocrats)commanders at police and at the justicedepartment consider a weapon as something very scarey.
In their (ideal) world a criminal will lay down his weapon if you ask him to.
The law here marks me as a criminal when I (or a policeman) do use a weapon......
Instead of a criminal who is not guilty until proven otherwise, its the other way around for an officer or soldier.
Lawyers will argue for 6 months or longer if you took the right decision (you...often have a few seconds)
That saying, no chance to become a hero.

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« Reply #12 on: 13 April 2011, 15:05:30 »
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Henk, correct me when I'm wrong but based what on what I've seen, what I('ve) read and what Dutch people told me in the period I was a member of a Dutch oldtimer club:

* Dutch people are in the phase where the Belgians were in some years ago, realising that they do not live in THE perfect society. We Belgians also though that killings and gangs were something for the US. Until a politician got killed, a dude started locking up and raping kids, when a man raped his daughter for many years and locked her up in the basement and others and ofcourse the start of it all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nijvel_gang - (http://www.bendevannijvel.com/)

*the 'perfect Dutch society' lead to a Dutch police that consists of professional tourguides, when you LOOK at most police officers you wonder how IGN they want to uphold the law (without the use of weapons) with their personalities. (funniest was in a Dutch police show where they halted a Belgian car suspected on drugstrafficking... the guy was from the southern part of Belgium... speaking French... and not one of those officers spoke 1 word of French....and you do drive from the Dutch border to the French part of Belgium is 20-30 kms...all this happened and was shown on TV  Onbeslist)

*when only the Swat teams are licensed to 'go' and 'kill' you always loose precious time...

*what I don't understand is that the police is at the entrance of the mall but just wait?Huh? why forgodsake did you become a police officer when you stay out of the shit? ok, he an automatic S&W but when you're outside you can only HEAR he has an automatic. so you're outside and you wait a minute for back-up, now you're with 2 teams making 2x2= 4 officers. And still you wait? 4 barrels?

ps: must admit I'm doing a 'Dirty Harry' marathon this week so maybe I sound a bit 'go ahead, make my day'  xangel
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stoffel
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« Reply #13 on: 13 April 2011, 15:18:06 »
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Well Koen, you are absolutely right.

The answer to your last question about the police not entering can be found in an earlier reply, rules.
For the rest you are absolutely right, officers are not the big guys anymore who would give you a beating like the ones did 30 years ago.
The big guy (often with big mustache:)) whom you had an aweful lot of respect for.
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