7 December 2019, 02:48:42 *

Login with username, password and session length
Welcome to War and Tactics!    War and Tactics Forum is currently undergoing some modifications that might disable features you are used to. This is unabvoidable as we have to update the forum engine to a new structure that is incompatible with many of the features we had used so far. The good news: WaT will be more secure and stable, and most of the features we uninstalled will be a natural part of the new structure anyway. For the rest we will be looking for solutions. (APR 23, 2018)
   
  Home   Forum   Help ! Forum Rules ! Search Calendar Donations Login Register Chat  
Pages:  [1] 2 3 ... 8   Go Down
  Print  
Share this topic on Del.icio.usShare this topic on DiggShare this topic on FacebookShare this topic on GoogleShare this topic on MySpaceShare this topic on RedditShare this topic on StumbleUponShare this topic on TechnoratiShare this topic on TwitterShare this topic on Yahoo
Author Topic: Security council backs no fly resolution  (Read 60341 times)
MontyB
Local Moderator

**

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1005




View Profile
« on: 18 March 2011, 00:18:36 »
ReplyReply

Libya: UN security council backs no-fly zone and air strikes
The 15-member council voted in favour of a resolution authorising 'all necessary measures short of an occupation force'

British, French and US military aircraft are preparing to protect the Libyan rebel stronghold of Benghazi after the United Nations security council voted in favour of a no-fly zone and air strikes against Muammar Gaddafi's forces

Read More...
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
MontyB
Local Moderator

**

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1005




View Profile
« Reply #1 on: 18 March 2011, 06:30:56 »
ReplyReply

U.S. Congressmen seek quick enforcement of no-fly zone

Top U.S. lawmakers have sought quick enforcement of the U.N. Security Council resolution that effectively authorised the use of force in Libya to protect civilians from attack, specifically in the eastern city of Benghazi.

“With Qadhafi’s forces moving towards Benghazi, we must immediately work with our friends in the Arab League and in NATO to enforce this resolution and turn the tide before it is too late,” Senators John Kerry, John McCain and Joseph Lieberman, said in a joint statement.

Read More...
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2268




View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: 18 March 2011, 06:31:15 »
ReplyReply

About time, maybe too late.

Ghadafi is advancing fast, and some heavy strikes on his comms nodes and logistics will be needed to stop him, apart from SEAD or DEAD and probably even some dog fighting with the Lybian planes (one of the rare setups in todays air warfare where forced into dog fighting might be a posibility).

OTOH I think his forces might think twice before affronting a lost battle, they are mainly paid mercenaries from Mali and Senegal. Taking the 2000 $ a day was fine when you were winning, but the money might look less worth when you fiind yourself at the receiving end of bomb runs.

Rattler

Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
MontyB
Local Moderator

**

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1005




View Profile
« Reply #3 on: 18 March 2011, 06:36:48 »
ReplyReply

I suspect it is to late, I also struggle to understand how Obama is getting patted on the back for establishing this when the driving force was France, Britain and the Arab League.


British newspapers reprimanded US President Barack Obama for dragging his feet on a move to impose a no-fly zone over Libya, passed almost three weeks after it was first mooted.
 

The 15 members of the UN Security Council on Thursday approved a resolution permitting "all necessary measures" to impose the no-fly zone, protect civilian areas and impose a ceasefire on strongman Muammar Gaddafi's military.

Britain and France had pushed for military action for some time.

Read More...
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2268




View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: 18 March 2011, 23:12:49 »
ReplyReply

Lybia has - how nice to be right once Smiley - backed down and (at least verbally) declared a cease fire.

What are the mil options now (they seem to be going on bombing and strafing, though its not clear whether by arty or a/c)?

US cruise missiles in DEAD mission?

I am sure NATO has been monitoring the Lybian layout for a week+ now, and Sarkozy seems to be eager to go (he does not want the data of his campaign having been paid by Ghadafi become public in detail, and for him being called "a clown" is surely something he takes personally - it has long been known that the runs politics from this POV, see his comments about Zapatero or Obama).

If France strikes, it would probably with its Rafale-M 4.5 generation fighters, off the Charles de Gaulle carrier (its Hawkeyes have been deployed for some time now and the carrier is stationed ready to strike in the Med).

Another option would be to let the Arab nations execute the brunt of the effort, anybody has an idea what this would amount to exactly?

Rattler
Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
MontyB
Local Moderator

**

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1005




View Profile
« Reply #5 on: 19 March 2011, 00:09:14 »
ReplyReply

Personally I can't see the British doing anything I tend to think their involvement in this is pretty much a "we want to be seen to be involved" one rather than a "lets get in there and sort it out" one, I am a little disappointed in the German response to this but I can understand the Russian and Chinese stance as they use a lot of Libyan oil and at least they didn't play politics and veto the resolution and I have to be honest the American attitude to this seems to be "we don't want to know but if it pans out well we will claim victory".

So to be perfectly blunt I suspect the early stages will be dominated by the French and then gradually the Americans will take over.

I find it very interesting the Egypt has started arming the rebels given that they will undoubtedly have to bear responsibility for this should Qaddafi pull this off.

My guess is that this will drag on for a bit until Qaddafi loses his nut and does something silly and had his military hammered from the air and then at some point Egyptian troops will form the backbone of an Arab League peacekeeping force.
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #6 on: 19 March 2011, 10:44:13 »
ReplyReply

Belgium government is preparing to send 6 F-16s and 1 Minehunter M923 'Narcis' to Libya.
The F-16s are currently on a training mission in Greece.

M923 (link)

Logged
Mad_Russian
Captain
***

Offline Offline

United States

Posts: 1321



Co-founder of WaT


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: 19 March 2011, 14:54:08 »
ReplyReply

This looks like a Civil War to me. Unless Qhadafi starts killing women and children indiscriminately then I think everybody else needs to let them sort it out.

But of course that's not the way. Everybody picks sides.

Good Hunting.

MR
Logged
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #8 on: 19 March 2011, 15:21:34 »
ReplyReply

pictures and video of the 'shooting down' of a Libyan jetfighter

http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2011/03/19/in-beeld-straaljager-neergeschoten-in-benghazi/



videos:
http://nos.nl/l/tcm:5-922475/
http://nos.nl/video/226821-jachtvliegtuig-stort-neer-in-benghazi.html

you see one small explosion so I assume a SAM?
« Last Edit: 19 March 2011, 16:17:23 by Koen » Logged
Mad_Russian
Captain
***

Offline Offline

United States

Posts: 1321



Co-founder of WaT


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: 19 March 2011, 15:53:53 »
ReplyReply

Scratch 1 Mig.

Good Hunting.

MR
Logged
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #10 on: 19 March 2011, 17:36:15 »
ReplyReply

French military jets over Libya

French military jets are preventing forces loyal to Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi from attacking the rebel-held city of Benghazi, French President Nicolas Sarkozy says.

It is believed to be the first act of intervention since the UN voted on Thursday for a no-fly zone over Libya.

Western and Arab leaders have been meeting in Paris to agree a course of action to confront Col Gaddafi.

"Our air force will oppose any aggression," Mr Sarkozy said.

Hours earlier, pro-Gaddafi forces launched an assault on the Libyan rebel stronghold of Benghazi, a BBC journalist witnessed.

However, the Libyan government has denied it is attacking.

read more...

Logged
Mad_Russian
Captain
***

Offline Offline

United States

Posts: 1321



Co-founder of WaT


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: 19 March 2011, 17:51:31 »
ReplyReply




Is that a parachute to the left of the plane as it's about to hit the ground?

Good Hunting.

MR
Logged
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #12 on: 19 March 2011, 17:52:49 »
ReplyReply

yes, that's the pilot with parachute.

in one of those videos you see him ejecting right after the hit
Logged
Mad_Russian
Captain
***

Offline Offline

United States

Posts: 1321



Co-founder of WaT


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: 19 March 2011, 17:55:54 »
ReplyReply

Is that a new kind of chute or has it not deployed properly. Never saw one that small before.

Good Hunting.

MR
Logged
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4247




View Profile
« Reply #14 on: 19 March 2011, 17:56:57 »
ReplyReply

Is that a new kind of chute or has it not deployed properly. Never saw one that small before.

Good Hunting.

MR


dunno, I see 2 chutes
Logged
Mad_Russian
Captain
***

Offline Offline

United States

Posts: 1321



Co-founder of WaT


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: 19 March 2011, 18:56:56 »
ReplyReply

Normally there is a large chute on the bottom and a small stabilizer chute above that. We are missing the big chute here.

Good Hunting.

MR
Logged
MontyB
Local Moderator

**

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1005




View Profile
« Reply #16 on: 19 March 2011, 21:15:15 »
ReplyReply

I am not sure I understand the way this system works, the west flies around blowing up Libyan aircraft and ground forces but what happens should the rebels advance do western air forces just become the rebel air force and what happens if rebels in their advance start shelling pro-Qaddafi areas do we swap sides?

What happens if things go wrong and the rebels can not hold their ground even with western air support, do we just shrug and walk away or will we have to commit ground forces?

There is a part of me that says this is a half arsed measure that will just serve to prolong the inevitable and perhaps we would be better off just dumping a few thousand troops on the shores of Tripoli deposing the current leadership and then buggering off to let them sort it out.
Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Mad_Russian
Captain
***

Offline Offline

United States

Posts: 1321



Co-founder of WaT


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: 19 March 2011, 21:20:39 »
ReplyReply

Or let them sort it out now as long as nobody is massacring women, children, non-combatants.

What other nation would let outside forces put a no fly zone over their country while they were trying to stop a civil war?

None that I can think of.

Good Hunting.

MR
Logged
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2268




View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: 19 March 2011, 22:45:36 »
ReplyReply

Did not want to enter into this deeper as strategically, but as it becomes a *hot* thread, let me weigh in, and on various responses:

Scratch 1 Mig.

Flogger (Mig 23) alright. First thought it would have to be a Mirage (F1?) as they were designed for this ground attack role, but the picture shows clearly the rounded tail and the variable geometry wings of a Flogger, also the ejection seats are clearly Soviet (KM-1, see below).

Is that a new kind of chute or has it not deployed properly. Never saw one that small before.


in one of those videos you see him ejecting right after the hit

you see one small explosion so I assume a SAM?


From my understanding, we see three chutes in the photo: Two pilots eject (which means it must be a Mig 23 C, strange to see it in this role), and the photo shows the moment when the drouge chutes (chute #1) of both and the (#2 cute) stabilzer chute of one is visible, latter not fully deployed yet (but in the vid it can be seen it finally did, as well as the third - main - chute after pilot/seat separation).

Also, there is no SAM hit or other explosion visible, the flash you see is the initiation of the ejection sequence.

What you see is the (very old comparitively) KM-1 ejection seat in action: Not a true zero-zero seat (like its western counterpart Martin Baker) it is (if memory serves right) a so called "gunbarrel" ejection system that basically works like a shotgun charge and "fires" you out of the cockpit (often resulting in spinal injury to the pilots because of the brunt rocket propeling force employed). The KM-1M is a fully automatic rocket boosted seat featuring three modes of operation with automatic mode selection based on the aircraft altitude and speed at the time of ejection. It is a ground level ejection seat with minimum aircraft speed requirement of 130 kmph (so its a zero-130 seat).

Sequence (3 chutes system, depending on hight):



Once the Pilot pulls the ejection handle the canopy cartridge ignites and jettisons the canopy which removes the interlock block. Simultaneously with the canopy jettison, a second cartridge initiates shoulder harness tightening and arm protector extension. The removal of the interlock block fires the ejection gun. The seat starts to move, engaging the Speed/Time Computer (KPA-4, PPK-2), and separating the common connector after a movement of 1 inch. The telescopic rail and first stabilizing chute deployment is initiated with a 4 inch movement. After 16 inches, leg restrain is engaged, followed by rocket motor ignition after 32 inch. If below 280 KIAS the first stabilizer chute jettisons immediately, deploying second stab-chute, arm protectors retraction, and engaging separation sequencer PPK-1. If faster then 280 KIAS, this will be accomplished after 0.1...1.6 s according to speed.Seat - pilot separation is after 1.5 s if below 10000 ft with the regular set up.

Modern ejection seats (KM-1 is a ´50s design) have artificially retarded rocket propelling fuel that burns slower and takes longer to develop max thrust (hence less injuries to pilots spines with an MB), but the KM1 has the advantage of working in split seconds and faster than the MB, probably just exactly what the guys in the vid in their high-speed-high-G descent wanted as they only ejected at the last possible moment (hats-off to that excellent timing, by the way, many would not be able to pull that stunt off, maybe we saw the automatic release system of the seat at work here).

Here the KM-1 (which is also used by the IAF in licensed production) in all its (complex) beauty:



This is what it looks from the rear, as mentioned above it is a CR seat (see the interlocking system preventing the seat fired before canopy is released on the right), the springs you see are shooting the drouge chute headset from the central telescope:



Details on what you see in the pix here:



Belgium government is preparing to send 6 F-16s and 1 Minehunter M923 'Narcis' to Libya.

Yes, and Spain will send "2 jet fighters and a submarine", whatever that means...  hdbng

Or let them sort it out now as long as nobody is massacring women, children, non-combatants.

What other nation would let outside forces put a no fly zone over their country while they were trying to stop a civil war?


With the precedence (of not SC backed) NATO intervention in Kosovo for humanitarian reasons, we can really do what we need there, except any occupation, this *because* Ghadaffi is "massacring women, children, non-combatants", the Lybian civil population, in indiscrimate bombing runs, from sea with indiscriminate sheling and on the ground with paie mercenaries after the majority of the Lybian Armed Forces left him; at least that is for what it was sold to us.

In the news we now have "110 US Cruise missile strikes - Tomahawk", 40 Rafale attacking ground convoys and ships, and Egypt crossing the border and providing the "Rebels" with MANPADs.

Looks all of my three initial ideas that formed my question have come to bear...

I am not sure I understand the way this system works, the west flies around blowing up Libyan aircraft and ground forces but what happens should the rebels advance do western air forces just become the rebel air force and what happens if rebels in their advance start shelling pro-Qaddafi areas do we swap sides?



We will not actively help the Rebels (officially), and we dont swap sides (officially) as we dont have any (officially) but are just protecting the civil polulation of the indiscriminate actions of The Mad Colonel.

What happens if things go wrong and the rebels can not hold their ground even with western air support, do we just shrug and walk away or will we have to commit ground forces?


Indeed, we shrug and walk away: No ground forces deployment (officially and legally), if the Rebels lose despite Western help thats it (but my guess is that wont happen).

Rattler
« Last Edit: 19 March 2011, 23:02:41 by Rattler » Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
MontyB
Local Moderator

**

Offline Offline

New Zealand

Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1005




View Profile
« Reply #19 on: 19 March 2011, 23:14:35 »
ReplyReply

I might be wrong here but does anyone else get the impression that this is being driven by the French?

It just strikes me that they have been at the fore front of this from the start and that France opening the bombing campaign has more or less forced the rest to get things underway, I look at the British response and it is clear that they are right behind anyone doing something but are not leading (my guess is they lack the capacity to do much due to commitments in Afghanistan) and Obama just seems confused or has no real idea what the hell is going on.

When you add to this that the "coalition" still hasn't even begun to move assets into the area, it just comes across as a case of the French deciding to get things underway so that there was no way to back out of the UN resolution by sitting around "planning and building up forces" until Qaddafi had finished off the rebels.

« Last Edit: 20 March 2011, 00:59:03 by MontyB » Logged

We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
Pages:  [1] 2 3 ... 8   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Unique Hits: 27207146 | Sitemap
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!


Google visited last this page Yesterday at 13:46:34