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Author Topic: Heinkel He-111  (Read 19846 times)
Alan65
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« on: 22 January 2009, 19:30:42 »
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update: He-111A-0

Postcard image of an He-111 in flight.  The Heinkel 111, medium bomber, had a range of 1,750 miles; a payload of 4,400 lbs.; crew of 5 and an airspeed of 250mph/400kph.  It was used throughout the war.
I don't know which model/year this is.

updated 16/01/10 by Koen
« Last Edit: 22 January 2009, 23:47:06 by Alan65 » Logged
Alan65
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« Reply #1 on: 22 January 2009, 19:37:02 »
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this postcard shows the He-111 from the rear side.  the tail fin insignia is painted in a different manner than the one pictured above; different year?  different unit? other reason?  am I just imagining it?
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Alan65
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« Reply #2 on: 22 January 2009, 19:39:21 »
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A third image and view.  better look at the top with mg placement and camoflague on wings.
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Rattler
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« Reply #3 on: 22 January 2009, 19:46:50 »
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Sorry, but if this is a He 111 this has to be either a prototype or a rather rare model:

He 111 visual aspect

- has a *protruding* pilot canopy (the one in the photo is integrated with the hull), the He 111 hull was basically a round tube/cone, nothing with a change in hull height (see attached pic 1, click to enlarge)

- a completely unobstructed front gunner/bomber canopy (this one is segmented) see attached pic 2, click to enlarge

- much bigger cooling air inlets in the engine cowlings (see attached pic 3, click to enlarge)

OTOH it has very many design aspects in common with the fielded He 111 (like the side windows and the rudder), so it might indeed be an early version, I think I have seen similar cable cutters

Dont know why, but the aspect reminds me of some italian design, a copy of the He 111, whose name atm I dont recall (when I have time I will check through my files)

Rattler


* he_111_outline.jpg (55.56 KB, 950x759 - viewed 832 times.)

* 1976636.002_23A.jpg (4.85 KB, 160x107 - viewed 1372 times.)

* 57503182.DSCN8369_edited.jpg (65.04 KB, 800x547 - viewed 845 times.)
« Last Edit: 22 January 2009, 19:53:25 by Rattler » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: 22 January 2009, 19:50:03 »
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thanks, Rattler!  I'll dig up the postcards and see what makes me call these all He-111s.  (sometimes somethings on the back or it looks like I cropped all of these image so there may be a caption not shown in these pictures.  I also may be going on what was added as comments on previous incarnations of WaT so if the actual postcards don't give any added info, I'll check the posts at the old sites.
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Rattler
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« Reply #5 on: 22 January 2009, 19:55:41 »
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thanks, Rattler!  I'll dig up the postcards and see what makes me call these all He-111s.  (sometimes somethings on the back or it looks like I cropped all of these image so there may be a caption not shown in these pictures.  I also may be going on what was added as comments on previous incarnations of WaT so if the actual postcards don't give any added info, I'll check the posts at the old sites.


NP, the thingy looks it first glance.

The 2nd photo you posted is a He 111 allright, the other two (1+3) I dont think so, check also the wing tips.

Rattler
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« Reply #6 on: 22 January 2009, 20:09:00 »
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Interesting historical mystery, as the captions definitely identify them as He-111's.  the lap-top is upstairs and the scanner is downstairs atm but when I get back I'll see about attaching the whole postcard scan to show the various captions.  (it's a possibilty that the postcard publisher mis-named them, too; or else we've stumbled across 'rare' proto-types.)
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Rattler
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« Reply #7 on: 22 January 2009, 20:18:14 »
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Hs 127? http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/germany/henshel-127.gif

Cannot find anything similar in the italian section, neither caproni, fiat or aermacchi. Still, I have seen that plane before, give me a few days...

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« Reply #8 on: 22 January 2009, 20:54:29 »
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Ok, I think I have got it:

This must be a Heinkel Doppelblitz, a plane ordered by Lufthansa in 1936 and basically a civil airliner (for tht time), The first prototype flew on 24 February 1935.

I do not have the designation clear (as I think it should be He 70-2), I think Hc111 should be the best designation I can come up with. In any case, the "Doppelblitz" was the base for the He 111A, so we might be on the right track...

Quote
The famous WWII German bomber, the He 111, was initially created as a plane with a dual-role (commercial transport and bomber). After the end of World War I, in accordance with Versailles Treaty conditions, Germany could not have bombers.
In the mid-1930's the political situation in Europe radically changed; Germany began a quick military development and re-organization. The Heinkel Company preferred developing the bomber version of the He 111. But evolution of the commercial model for the company Deutsche Lufthansa (DLH) had continued in the Rostok factory.
The summer of 1936 saw the beginning of the assembly of six pre-production planes, which received the designation He 111C-0. By the end of 1936 all six C-0's had been built, each aircraft received its own name:

    * He 111 C-01 Nurnberg (D-AMES),
    * He 111 C-02 Leipzig (D-AQYF),
    * He 111 C-03 Koln (D-AXAV),
    * He 111 C-04 Konigsberg (D-ABYE),
    * He 111 C-05 Breslau (D-AQUA),
    * He 111 C-06 Karlsruhe (D-ATYL).

After being used for a short time on local routes, DLH declared that the He 111C was too expensive, and not economical. The He 111C program was cancelled and all six pre-production C-planes were passed on to the "Prestigious Routes" Berlin-Hanover-Amsterdam, Berlin-Nuremberg-Munich, and Cologne-Dortmund-Berlin. Later on He 111C-01 and He 111C-05 were used as special courier planes in the Southern Atlantic.
In mid-1937 He 111C-03 was passed to a secret reconnaissance unit named "Commando Rowehl", commanded by Oberstleutinant Theodore Rowehl. It was a special photographic reconnaissance unit, whose aircraft bearing civil registration performed clandestine photographic sorties over Britain, France and the Soviet Union.
During WWII the number of DLH's commercial routes were minimal. The He111C as well as another transport version, the He111G, was still used on the Berlin-Danzig-Konigsberg line, and only a few times on the Moscow-Berlin route. Just after the invasion of Poland all DLH's He111C's and He111G's were to be taken over by the Luftwaffe. These planes were fitted with military radio equipment and defensive armament. In the next few years the He111C was used as a liaison aircraft for general Luftwaffe needs.



Some more: http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_he111_peter.html

Anyway, Iwould suggest you go to the real experts and post the cards over here for ID: http://www.lwag.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=17

In my files I found a very similar (changing hull shape and different wingtips) He111 E (?), http://www.panzertruppen.org/luftwaffe/bombarderos/he111.jpg, and also a similar He111B1 from the Spanish Civil war that has the same charateristics (see attached)

Pics attached (two of those are, interestingly, a FS construction)

Rattler


* hc111c-1.jpg (6.97 KB, 197x135 - viewed 1408 times.)

* 2he111c.jpg (7.1 KB, 190x138 - viewed 1435 times.)

* 3he-111c.jpg (29.96 KB, 400x300 - viewed 906 times.)

* he111B1-1.jpg (29.06 KB, 523x326 - viewed 878 times.)
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« Reply #9 on: 22 January 2009, 21:03:50 »
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are we talking about pic1 or 3?
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Rattler
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« Reply #10 on: 22 January 2009, 21:04:28 »
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And, finally, I have one with all your charateristics, and it is a He 111 allright (1937), so it was prototype time allright and I stand corrected - happens rarely when WWII aviation is concerned I can assure you, one notch on your gun!  Grijns ... see attached)

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* He111c.jpg (54.93 KB, 777x515 - viewed 909 times.)
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« Reply #11 on: 22 January 2009, 21:05:48 »
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are we talking about pic1 or 3?


1 *AND* 3

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« Reply #12 on: 22 January 2009, 21:19:15 »
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the swastika is also different, the ones in red/white/black are the non-military or NSDAP planes
« Last Edit: 23 January 2009, 10:44:10 by Koen » Logged
Alan65
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« Reply #13 on: 22 January 2009, 21:39:53 »
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<Quoted Image Removed>
A third image and view.  better look at the top with mg placement and camoflague on wings.





guess what?  I found a fourth image; this one looks like the same plane (camo pattern exactly the same and the plane looks to be the same to my eyes.)
this postcard has no identifying caption on it.

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Alan65
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« Reply #14 on: 22 January 2009, 22:26:19 »
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here are full views of the three postcards showing the caption. 




this is meant to show why I labelled them He-111's, not as the final word as to their make and model.  Knipoog
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Mad Russian
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« Reply #15 on: 23 January 2009, 04:33:50 »
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Anything with the swastika in a white circle on the tail is probably prewar.

Good Hunting.

MR
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« Reply #16 on: 15 January 2010, 19:59:50 »
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just stumbled over these again and the thread, they definitely (even to the untrained eye) do not show the same plane (#1 ad 3 are more alike but have nothing to do with #2), the last caption seems to suggest "*M*e 111" rather than "He 111§ (see for yourself), just double checking stuff, but I have *never* in my life heard of the latter designation (and would not have made sense ATT, no?).

TA (aka Rattler)

here are full views of the three postcards showing the caption. 
<Quoted Image Removed>
<Quoted Image Removed>
<Quoted Image Removed>

this is meant to show why I labelled them He-111's, not as the final word as to their make and model.  Knipoog

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« Reply #17 on: 15 January 2010, 20:27:03 »
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Some of the planes on the pictures dont have squadron identification either.
Only the second picture.
The more reason to believe those are prototypes.
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Alan65
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« Reply #18 on: 16 January 2010, 03:40:18 »
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Thanks for looking again!  I am a postcard and image guy, not an aviation guy, so I don't always notice all of the details of the image at first (if the caption reads one thing, I tend to see what the words say I'm seeing.)  Also, that older German font drives me crazy with the funny looking letters.  Anyway, I can see that the planes may not be the exact same models.   Is there a site/reference work that you use to id planes?   
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« Reply #19 on: 16 January 2010, 05:09:24 »
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That first picture is an He-111A-0.
The early variants had a conventional, stepped cockpit and small number were sold to China.
« Last Edit: 16 January 2010, 05:15:20 by MontyB » Logged

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