19 April 2024, 22:19:06 *

Login with username, password and session length
Welcome to War and Tactics!    War and Tactics Forum is currently undergoing some modifications that might disable features you are used to. This is unabvoidable as we have to update the forum engine to a new structure that is incompatible with many of the features we had used so far. The good news: WaT will be more secure and stable, and most of the features we uninstalled will be a natural part of the new structure anyway. For the rest we will be looking for solutions. (APR 23, 2018)
   
  Home   Forum   Help ! Forum Rules ! Search Calendar Donations Login Register Chat  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Share this topic on Del.icio.usShare this topic on DiggShare this topic on FacebookShare this topic on GoogleShare this topic on MySpaceShare this topic on RedditShare this topic on StumbleUponShare this topic on TechnoratiShare this topic on TwitterShare this topic on Yahoo
Author Topic: Understandable Frustration Or A Misunderstanding?  (Read 4612 times)
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2349




View Profile WWW
« on: 27 December 2009, 06:26:28 »
ReplyReply

I have watched the following video before and to some extent shared the frustration the ETT´s are expressing about the perceived lack of discipline shown by the Afghan soldiers they train and the wide spread use of drugs within thier formations, but today stumbled over soemeone with an interestingly contrasting opinon.

First the vid:

Lazy Afghanistan Army


Now, David Axe, on his War Is Boring blog has his own idea on how to interpret it:

Quote
I’m a little disappointed that so many reporters have latched onto the drug issue, as though that were one of the major impediments to building a U.S.-style Afghan military. All Afghans smoke pot — especially in winter, when roads are snowed in and nobody’s working. In Baraki Barak, marijuana grows ten feet tall in culverts and in the shade of downtown buildings. (Pictured below.) Nobody in Baraki Barak — not the local cops or government or the resident U.S. Army force — seems all that troubled by it.

It’s easy to call Afghan soldiers lazy or incompetent, especially when you’re basing your judgment on selective quotations from a pissed-off Marine Corps instructor. But that’s not really fair. The Afghan army is poorly led by officers appointed for their political connections. Many Afghan soldiers are illiterate owing to the nation’s poor education system. There’s never enough equipment because corruption at the highest levels of Afghan government siphons off the security forces’ funds. The lack of resources, plus the fundamentally local and seasonal nature of Afghan warfare, means Afghan soldiers have a deeply ingrained garrison mindset. They occupy a place, rather than maneuvering to gain advantage.

But I challenge you to find a more tough-minded soldier than an Afghan, or one more hardened to cold, hunger and pain. In Baraki Barak I spoke with one member of the Afghan security forces who has been walking around for months with several bullets lodged in his back. His army had not provided for his ongoing medical care, so he just lived with the pain.

And when members of the U.S. 71st Cavalry got ambushed in Baraki Barak in October, the Americans sat tight as Taliban rounds bounced off their million-dollar armored vehicles. But the Afghan soldiers accompanying the Americans rode in unarmored pickup trucks. Despite their extreme vulnerability, the Afghans opened fire, and fought hard until the Taliban were dead or retreated.



I am not sure those issues are discussed contorversely on a sufficiently high political level to shape our strategy in Afghanistan and I fear that this way things will not improve, whatever higher number of soldiers we send there.

Rattler
Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
Rattler
WaT Supporter

*

Offline Offline

Germany

Location: Med Island
Posts: 2349




View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: 15 April 2010, 20:51:15 »
ReplyReply

Some more details (that we here in Spain have a vast access to with a relatively high number of troops in relation to the poulation rotating through) about what might be going wrong in Afghanistan despite many well thought out efforts:

Quote
Dirty laundry

“My biggest regret about Afghanistan is over a washing machine,” says Stuart Tootal. The machine in question was in a hospital in Gereshk in the south of Helmand and was discovered by Tootal’s men on their first patrol in May 2006.

“The hospital sheets were filthy and the doctor said they couldn’t wash them,” he explained. “But we said, ‘You have an industrial washing machine sitting there in cellophane.’”

The US aid agency that had donated it withdrew when the British arrived so it had never been installed. An engineer with Tootal said that could be rectified, but they had not reckoned with the Department for International Development. It saw aid as its area and disliked “quick impact” projects.

“They didn’t want the military going into hospitals and they said we would tread on the toes of an aid agency even though it wasn’t doing anything,” said Tootal. “I said, ‘It doesn’t have to be done under the cloak of 3 Para. We can dress ourselves up as Afghans, do it at night. We just need to fix it.’”

The government officials refused, so for the whole of 3 Para’s six months in Helmand, the machine sat there in its plastic wrapping.

Tootal believes failure to carry out such “hearts and minds” operations has cost Britain in the long run. “It would have made us stand apart from the usual Afghan experience of foreigners constantly promising and not delivering,” he said.

from: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 364115.ece

Actually, I knew the story but had heard it differnetly (not saying "Times" is wrong, most probably myself and what I heard instead), just to show where rumours from a single incident lead to:

From another forum:
Quote
-snip-... about a british regiment that just moved into a small town in Helmand province. The CO of the unit did a tour of the area, found at the local hospital filthy sheets and surgical gowns. Asked if there was something he could do to help he was shown a large brand new german made industrial washing machine (the sort that can cope with a hospital load of laundry. Perfect. Problem was it was still in the plastic and on a pallet. It needed to be installed. No problem, the CO puts in a request to his higher headquarters for the local REME unit to come down and install it (a 1 day job for a sparky and plumber apparently). Higher HQ vetoed the request because then the aid would have been seen as coming from the british army, instead higher HQ passed the request onto the Afghan administration for that to be done (theory being that then the benevolent central government would be seen to be working for the people). Many repeated requests were passed over the following months. The Battalion rotated back to the UK after 9 months (not sure of the exact timeframe) and the washing machine was still sitting in the basement in its plastic...

Now, this request which would undoubtedly have saved lives and would have started the hearts and minds policy in the province was sent to an organisation staffed by very many contractors and other aid organisations.

A recent interview with a bloke that recently retired from the UN (very highly regarded and in positions of quite some influence) basically explained that the UN and other aid organisations are filled with people more interested in getting another contract than doing an efficient job. After all, if you do your job well and efficiently, you could end up making yourself redundant...



The question I am asking myself here (for both versions): Why did nobody even try to connect the machine (Afghans, Brits, Germans, US), how can it be that after 6 (or 9) month it was basically left untouched (i.e. still wrapped up) with a problem at hand?

Some ideas come to mind (sorry for sounding cynical maybe):

- Germans had no time (order is order)
- Brits needed to pass a request first (Gotta conserve CoC)
- US didn´t want to meddle with international diplomatic conflict looming in the rear (Save your ass first, Obama might be behind that?)
- Afghans were not allowed or didnt have the bribe for the guy who would have consented.

In any case, neither we (the Coalition) nor they deserve a better outcome as currently imagnable if they do not overcome such stuff, and soon.

Back to the stone ages again?

Rattler
Logged

"War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left...": The Rattler Way Of Life (thanks! to Solideo)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9v3Vyr5o2Q
Koen
Poster

****

Offline Offline

Belgium

Location: Belgium
Posts: 4215




View Profile
« Reply #2 on: 15 April 2010, 21:21:58 »
ReplyReply

not only in warzones...there are several stories of European aid in Africa where they deliver the goods and leave the installation and handling over to the locals...
trains with the wheelwidth of European tracks.....useless in Africa...
and many more

in the case of the washing machine....for them it probably looked as something from Mars...and maybe you only need a screwdriver and a watertube but do they have that?

you don't sound cynical but realistic...

who scores when they installed a washing machine? there's no tactical victory, nothing spectacular to report to the commanding generals...
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Unique Hits: 44456426 | Sitemap
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!


Google visited last this page 30 April 2022, 00:14:12