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Author Topic: 12th SS Pz Div "Mini": playtest *Henk-Balkan Warrior*  (Read 3240 times)
Koen
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« on: 11 March 2009, 11:54:54 »
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Playtesting topic for the mini 12SS Pz Div HJ meets the Canadians in Normandy

axis: Henk
allied: Balkan Warrior

Have fun guys!
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stoffel
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« Reply #1 on: 12 August 2009, 18:03:17 »
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Battle over.



Briefings   : OK   
Concept   : interesting plan   ,fictional but could have been.
Presentation: /      
Map Design    : very well, good map, looks like real countryside.   
Setup Phase :    Units are positioned out of the box, need to have some sort of defensive positioning for the lazy player      
Reinforcements   : non for axis         :
Force Balance   : bad, too many allied armor and At guns face the  few German tankplatoons   ,no 3 to 1 for attacker but 1 to 2 in guns!!
Replayability   : none,   
Timeframe      : Number of turns too short to be able to advance cautiously, causing huge losses for the Germans
Other Comments   : experience problem for 6pdrs, compared to MKIVs, 6pdrs shouldnt be higher as green compared to regular or veteran MKIVs(CMAK bug)
Terrain favors the defender, he can get into good positions and easily destroy the attacking German armor with overkill.German infnatry is slowed down initially by the hedges and has to cross lots of open terrain, they wont make it to the VLs in 30 turns.The open topped SPguns are of no use in a scenario.
they can easily be destroyed, better it is to use an FO or to use the STuH42 for close support.
Final Decision   :The Germans need more armor( 1 or 2 panther for instance) to get the normal 3 to 1 attacking modus.
If not, they have no chance.
The infantry needs more carriers or should be able to be posted closer to the vls.
Open terrain is deadly for them, the hedges also pose another big problem, both factors slow them down too much.
Think of crossing an open field,(under fire) sneak through a hedge(under fire) and than try to walk up a hill to a forest(under fire)
The SPs should be left out of the battle for Stuhs or FOs
Another good solution might be to enlarge the map and put the vls in the middle of the map on open spots Smiley
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My topics are about my personal opinion, my thoughts and what I think. They do not reflect the official opinion of the ministry of defense of the Netherlands.
Koen
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« Reply #2 on: 12 August 2009, 20:17:39 »
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ok, thx for the input
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Koen
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« Reply #3 on: 16 August 2009, 14:46:24 »
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12SS mini

these are the comments I collected from both of you:


Quote
You also need to take into account that the MKIVs are undermodelled for their guns against Shermans.

And the ratio isn’t balanced enough compared to the number of turns.

You have to hurry to get to the flags, which isn’t a good choice in terrain like this.

12 tanks and 6 guns against 15 German tanks.

In order to mount a proper attack you need a 1 to 3 ratio in attacking.

Here its 15 atackers against 18 defenders.

The AT-guns killed my MKIV’s with 1 or 2 shots.

For every tank I lose you have a much easier task.

I suggest to change at least 1 platoon for Panthers, reduce the quality for the guns and the shermans to green ( no T rounds)

And at least 10 or 20 turns extra.

The SP guns can be replaced by an FO.


**************************************************************

Quote
This is no use, my tanks cant seem to hit anything L

Besides that the defender is much to strong, its not balanced enough for HtH play.

In orde to be able to mount a succesfull attack you need to have a 1 to 3 or 1 to 2 advantage in armor.

With 4 guns firing 1 shot 1 kills and about 6 tanks its almost even in numbers, this in terrain very favourable for the defenders.

Number of turns is too short to do a carefull approach with infantry.

Also the hedges makes sure my infantry slows down enough.

Maybe against the AI or a bad player its worth it but not in two player against a good opponent.

****************************************************************

Quote
Als je kijkt naar mijn 21 pz scenario dan zie je wat ik bedoel.

Daar heb ik 4 shermans, 4 M 10s en 6 AT guns tegenover 40 MKIVs.

Historische setup.

De duitsers werden verpletterend verslagen, ze verloren 23 tanks in die battle, zo ook in cmak.

Ik heb de quality teruggebracht naar green voor de allies en toen was het een gelijk opgaande match.

Zoek maar eens op het forum naar tests van MKIVs tegen shermans, je zal ervan opkijken.

In jouw battle heb je ook nog eens veteran crews met T rounds tegen regular en green MKIVs…..

Tegen de AI redt je het wel, maar HtH wordt een ander verhaal.


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Quote
wat minder heggen rondom de duitse posities zou ook fijn zijn voor de infanterie.


***************************************************************

Quote
Hi Henk!
 
With Surrender all the points and flags come to the Brits, and the Brits get a total victory, so it will show the battle very unbalanced to Koen.
 
I think it would be better to hit "Ceasefire" since then the battle stops where it is and we both get our share of points and flags. This should better help Koen in evaluating his scenario!


****************************************************************

Quote
I personally enjoyed the battle a lot! I had lots of room to maneuver, and I had to analyze numerous options as to how to defend.
I particularly liked the option to move forward to the objective on the upper left side which was out of the set up zone! I have not encountered that before! A good idea!
It made my think a lot! I thought your representation of the Boscage was excellent, especially they way it channelized the forces. Like the real thing!
German armor cannot cross the Boscage, but the allies usually could. You should add that feature to the allied armor! It was a big advantage in the "Real Thing".


**************************************************************

Quote
1. Expand Briefing with more detail! i.e. Canadians are defending a German Counter Attack in the first battle.
2. Strange that Allies are defending, and also facing “West”! It would seem the Germans should be defending and the Allies heading EAST! Briefing says Allies are moving south and east out of Normandy!
3. Mention if Shermans have the Tall Hedge cutting blade on them if they are installed, or say that they are not installed. They should probably have it!
4. Do we have Air Attack! Mention
5. Allied A Co has few  units assigned! Just eight
6. Mention Fall back Foxholes in Brief for Canadians, 124 each
7. Maybe give the Canadians some TRPs, they have Mortar Spotter with 315 rounds
8. Mention Reinf for British side, about turn 8 and maybe location


****************************************

Quote
Briefings   : OK   
Concept   : interesting plan   ,fictional but could have been.
Presentation: /     
Map Design    : very well, good map, looks like real countryside.   
Setup Phase :    Units are positioned out of the box, need to have some sort of defensive positioning for the lazy player     
Reinforcements   : non for axis         :
Force Balance   : bad, too many allied armor and At guns face the  few German tankplatoons   ,no 3 to 1 for attacker but 1 to 2 in guns!!
Replayability   : none,   
Timeframe      : Number of turns too short to be able to advance cautiously, causing huge losses for the Germans
Other Comments   : experience problem for 6pdrs, compared to MKIVs, 6pdrs shouldnt be higher as green compared to regular or veteran MKIVs(CMAK bug)
Terrain favors the defender, he can get into good positions and easily destroy the attacking German armor with overkill.German infnatry is slowed down initially by the hedges and has to cross lots of open terrain, they wont make it to the VLs in 30 turns.The open topped SPguns are of no use in a scenario.
they can easily be destroyed, better it is to use an FO or to use the STuH42 for close support.
Final Decision   :The Germans need more armor( 1 or 2 panther for instance) to get the normal 3 to 1 attacking modus.
If not, they have no chance.
The infantry needs more carriers or should be able to be posted closer to the vls.
Open terrain is deadly for them, the hedges also pose another big problem, both factors slow them down too much.
Think of crossing an open field,(under fire) sneak through a hedge(under fire) and than try to walk up a hill to a forest(under fire)
The SPs should be left out of the battle for Stuhs or FOs
Another good solution might be to enlarge the map and put the vls in the middle of the map on open spots

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